Help identify immersion pipe

kkelly77

A friend of mine has a leak in thier house coming from a pipe from their immersion. The pipe (gun barrel I think) is heavily corroded. She had a plumber in who said he could not find the valve to turn off the water so the pipe could be replaced.

I took a look at it today with my limited knowledge of plumbing. There is a tank in the attic feeding a pump and the immersion tank. There is a valve on the pipe connecting the tank to the pump.

If I close the valve and tie off the ball cock in the tank to prevent refilling, should we be able to empty the system sufficiently by running the water until the level drops enough to remove the pipe from the immersion tank? I believe the faulty pipe is the hot water out(?)

I've attached some photos of the header tank, pump and immersion tank/pipework.



Red arrow pointing to leaking pipe (hot water out?)

aujopimur

The pipe you're pointing to is the heating return, not plumbing.
I'd advise replacing all the iron pipework as it's probably completely rotten.

nmacc

The pipe in question is the hot flow from the boiler to the coil in the cylinder. It heats the hot water when the boiler is running and does not contain the hot water that comes out of your taps. Draining the tank in the loft will not help in this case.

To replace this pipe you'll need to drain down the heating system. There is no sign of a small central heating header tank in the photos of the loft, so unless there is one hiding out of shot, the heating system is probably sealed or semi-sealed.

If it's semi-sealed then there will be a pipe from the loft tank feeding the heating system through a gate valve and a non-return valve. Shutting off the gate valve will stop the system filling and allow you to drain it. If sealed, then there will be a fill point, probably at the boiler, with a valve, either manual or automatic, allowing the system to be topped up. This valves needs to be shut before the system can be drained.

If it's starting to sound complicated, then this is the time to call a proper plumber and not some idiot likely to tell you the nonsense that the first one did.

gifted

Jesus but i hate that qualpex/pex whatever it's called pipe, looks like a donkey put in that pipework :mad:

scudo2

gifted wrote: »

Jesus but i hate that qualpex/pex whatever it's called pipe, looks like a donkey put in that pipework :mad:

Home insurance Co. do not like galavanised water tanks as they will eventualy rust and leak, check out the small print on your policy.

Pipe work on pump looks cat. + doggy auto air vent on same.

kkelly77

nmacc wrote: »

The pipe in question is the hot flow from the boiler to the coil in the cylinder. It heats the hot water when the boiler is running and does not contain the hot water that comes out of your taps. Draining the tank in the loft will not help in this case.

To replace this pipe you'll need to drain down the heating system. There is no sign of a small central heating header tank in the photos of the loft, so unless there is one hiding out of shot, the heating system is probably sealed or semi-sealed.

If it's semi-sealed then there will be a pipe from the loft tank feeding the heating system through a gate valve and a non-return valve. Shutting off the gate valve will stop the system filling and allow you to drain it. If sealed, then there will be a fill point, probably at the boiler, with a valve, either manual or automatic, allowing the system to be topped up. This valves needs to be shut before the system can be drained.

If it's starting to sound complicated, then this is the time to call a proper plumber and not some idiot likely to tell you the nonsense that the first one did.

Sorry for the late reply all. Didn't get any email notification that you had replied to my post

Anyway, I won't be tackling this problem myself. Just trying to clarify what my friend has been told by the plumber she had in.

There is no other header tank in the attic. Just the main (galvanised) tank. I'll let the house owner know that this might void their house insurance.

The gas boiler for CH is located in the kitchen. Is the draining procedure the same for a sealed and semi sealed system? The only gate valves I could find were the two in the hot press, for hot/cold to fixtures and the valve on the header tank. I believe the house used to have OFCH and the boiler/burner were in the shed.

sullzz

kkelly77 wrote: »

Sorry for the late reply all. Didn't get any email notification that you had replied to my post

Anyway, I won't be tackling this problem myself. Just trying to clarify what my friend has been told by the plumber she had in.

There is no other header tank in the attic. Just the main (galvanised) tank. I'll let the house owner know that this might void their house insurance.

The gas boiler for CH is located in the kitchen. Is the draining procedure the same for a sealed and semi sealed system? The only gate valves I could find were the two in the hot press, for hot/cold to fixtures and the valve on the header tank. I believe the house used to have OFCH and the boiler/burner were in the shed.

Check around the boiler area for a filler valve , or mabey a gate valve with non return valve , or in the shed where it used to be located

Froststop

sullzz wrote: »

Check around the boiler area for a filler valve , or mabey a gate valve with non return valve , or in the shed where it used to be located

I agree.
Some gas boilers have a dedicated mains supply connection for the heating. Just encase you can't find a fill loop or fill valve. If the boiler has four pipes, one will be the mains and there should be a valve on the 1/2" pipe usually within the the boiler casing.

kkelly77

Froststop wrote: »

I agree.
Some gas boilers have a dedicated mains supply connection for the heating. Just encase you can't find a fill loop or fill valve. If the boiler has four pipes, one will be the mains and there should be a valve on the 1/2" pipe usually within the the boiler casing.

Thanks for the info Froststop.

I'll try and get a photo of the pipework entering the boiler.

cluelez

disgusting dirty attic

kkelly77

Some photos of the boiler pipework







Do any of these shine a light as to the location of the valve in question?

Robbie.G

kkelly77 wrote: »

Some photos of the boiler pipework







Do any of these shine a light as to the location of the valve in question?

No it's none of those it must be on the hotpress

Robbie.G

Your looking for something like this.

https://www.google.ie/search?q=fill+loop&client=safari&hl=en-gb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=PB8dUuvzGfLH7Aa_44GwBg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAA&biw=320&bih=356#biv=i%7C14%3Bd%7CHLXJADtYliJ5zM%3A

kkelly77

Robbie.G wrote: »

Your looking for something like this.

https://www.google.ie/search?q=fill+loop&client=safari&hl=en-gb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=PB8dUuvzGfLH7Aa_44GwBg&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAA&biw=320&bih=356#biv=i%7C14%3Bd%7CHLXJADtYliJ5zM%3A

Thanks for that Robbie.

I wonder if the fill loop might be out in the shed where the original boiler and burner are from the oil central heating?

Froststop

kkelly77 wrote: »

Thanks for that Robbie.

I wonder if the fill loop might be out in the shed where the original boiler and burner are from the oil central heating?

It looks like a Potterton boiler, you have Flow, gas, return and safety valve.
It there a pressure vessel any where? Looks like this

http://www.terrybookers.co.uk/ekmps/shops/terrybookersltd/images/altecnic-robokit-expansion-pressure-vessel-without-vessel-bracket-2874-p.jpg

It should be near the boiler but could be in the shed, hot press or even attic

sullzz

Froststop wrote: »

It looks like a Potterton boiler, you have Flow, gas, return and safety valve.
It there a pressure vessel any where? Looks like this

http://www.terrybookers.co.uk/ekmps/shops/terrybookersltd/images/altecnic-robokit-expansion-pressure-vessel-without-vessel-bracket-2874-p.jpg

It should be near the boiler but could be in the shed, hot press or even attic

That would be in the boiler , its a system boiler

Froststop

sullzz wrote: »

That would be in the boiler , its a system boiler

Near the boiler! If there is no expansion tank, surely there should be a pressure vessel.

sullzz

Froststop wrote: »

Near the boiler! If there is no expansion tank, surely there should be a pressure vessel.

Do you mean "expansion vessel " , its a system boiler , the vessel is located within the boiler

sullzz

I would say the filling valve is either in the shed where the old boiler was located or within close proximity to the new boiler , I'd try following the flow and return pipes from the boiler they seem to drop behind the spur switch ( boxed in)
There is probably a filler valve there , or if they drop behind a kitchen unit there might be a false back or hole cut out or behind a washing machine if located below , it's all guess work at this stage

Froststop

sullzz wrote: »

Do you mean "expansion vessel " , its a system boiler , the vessel is located within the boiler

The vessel in the boiler is not designed for full expansion of a normal heating system. Most manufactures will advise it is only designed to protect boiler only.

Potterton Promax System HE Plus A
"1. The appliance expansion vessel is pre-charged to 0.5 bar.
Therefore, the minimum cold fill pressure is 0.5 bar. The
vessel is suitable for correct operation for system capacities up
to 125 litres. For greater system capacities an additional
expansion vessel must be fitted. For GB refer to BS 7074 Pt 1.
For IE, the current edition of I.S. 813 “Domestic Gas
Installations”.

Potterton Performa System HE is the same.

As most heating systems have more water volume it's best practise to fit an extra vessel. If the maximum output of an expansion vessel is exceeded, the diaphragm may be subjected to tensile stress. This could lead to damage to the diaphragm or even cause it to rupture.

To calculate/estimate required vessel size for a heating system with panel radiators: 11 x boiler output in KW's + 25% (safety factor)
e.g: 11 x 12kw =132 litres + 33 = 165 litres.

Even with one of the smallest rated boilers, the internal vessel is too small for a typical 5-6 rad system.

sullzz

Froststop wrote: »

The vessel in the boiler is not designed for full expansion of a normal heating system. Most manufactures will advise it is only designed to protect boiler only.

Potterton Promax System HE Plus A
"1. The appliance expansion vessel is pre-charged to 0.5 bar.
Therefore, the minimum cold fill pressure is 0.5 bar. The
vessel is suitable for correct operation for system capacities up
to 125 litres. For greater system capacities an additional
expansion vessel must be fitted. For GB refer to BS 7074 Pt 1.
For IE, the current edition of I.S. 813 “Domestic Gas
Installations”.

Potterton Performa System HE is the same.

As most heating systems have more water volume it's best practise to fit an extra vessel. If the maximum output of an expansion vessel is exceeded, the diaphragm may be subjected to tensile stress. This could lead to damage to the diaphragm or even cause it to rupture.

To calculate/estimate required vessel size for a heating system with panel radiators: 11 x boiler output in KW's + 25% (safety factor)
e.g: 11 x 12kw =132 litres + 33 = 165 litres.

Even with one of the smallest rated boilers, the internal vessel is too small for a typical 5-6 rad system.

Thanks for that lesson :rolleyes:
But I am aware that the internal vessel is generally inadequate for a typical heating system , but how often do you see a second one fitted , and I'm not talking about a vessel relocated after the internal one packed in

Froststop

sullzz wrote: »

Thanks for that lesson :rolleyes:
But I am aware that the internal vessel is generally inadequate for a typical heating system , but how often do you see a second one fitted , and I'm not talking about a vessel relocated after the internal one packed in

Post #16 & 18 suggest there should not. But anyway maybe we're getting wires crossed. There should always be one fitted. I would usually fit a fill loop next to the external vessel. This is what I was suggesting to the OP to look for.:(

sullzz

Froststop wrote: »

Post #16 & 18 suggest there should not.

Suggests what now ????

Froststop

sullzz wrote: »

Suggests what now ????

I was suggesting to look for an external vessel as the fill loop may be with it/near it, and the posts #16 & #18, give the impression there should not be a vessel fitted because there's one in the boiler.

sullzz

Froststop wrote: »

I was suggesting to look for an external vessel as the fill loop may be with it/near it, and the posts #16 & #18, give the impression there should not be a vessel fitted because there's one in the boiler.

Nope , never said there "should not " be one , I said that it was a system boiler and that the vessel would be inside it , it is bad enough that the op is running around looking for the filling valve without having him looking for a vessel , when more than likely there is none .

Froststop

sullzz wrote: »

Nope , never said there "should not " be one , I said that it was a system boiler and that the vessel would be inside it , it is bad enough that the op is running around looking for the filling valve without having him looking for a vessel , when more than likely there is none .

If there's not then should he not fit one when repairing the leak?

sullzz

Froststop wrote: »

If there's not then should he not fit one when repairing the leak?

Ideally , but they should also replace the galvanised storage cistern , drop the pump down to the hotpress and fit a Surrey flange to the hot inlet , doing away with the aav , replace all the gun barrel , replace the old copper cylinder for an insulated one , move the electrics from under the boiler , where do you stop

Froststop

sullzz wrote: »

Ideally , but they should also replace the galvanised storage cistern , drop the pump down to the hotpress and fit a Surrey flange to the hot inlet , doing away with the aav , replace all the gun barrel , replace the old copper cylinder for an insulated one , move the electrics from under the boiler , where do you stop

Re-plumb the lot! by the look of it!

I was looking up the BG regs and no heating vessel can be classed as a code red by all accounts. Which I assume is not good.

sullzz

Froststop wrote: »

Re-plumb the lot! by the look of it!

I was looking up the BG regs and no heating vessel can be classed as a code red by all accounts.

It looks about that age doesn't it

Froststop

sullzz wrote: »

It looks about that age doesn't it

Who ever put it in should die in shame. No pride in their work.

JohnnieK

gifted wrote: »

Jesus but i hate that qualpex/pex whatever it's called pipe, looks like a donkey put in that pipework :mad:

Totally agree. Do plumbers not have any pride in there work?????:mad:
It's a real ah sure F**K it in.