CAP - The EU's Socialist Program Gone Wrong

theGEM

The EU's Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) should be scrapped. €58billion of taxpayers money is given each year to European farmers to sit on their arse and mind their quotas. Not only does it increase prices for European consumers but the excess produce is dumped on the third world which destroys their local economy and then CAP places trade barriers which blocks out non-EU competition (again destroying the third world economies).

I find it ironic the political parties support this policy and then go off and give €600m in foreign aid which does virtually nothing but massage our ego.

http://www.ohchr.org/en/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=11485&LangID=E

NuckingFacker

You're right, it should be capped.

Fr_Dougal

Right so, you can break it to France. Good luck with that btw.

Sh1tbag OToole

NuckingFacker wrote: »

You're right, it should be capped.

CAP in yo ass mo'fukka

The Backwards Man

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SDVkdcO8ts

Wacker The Attacker

goddamn cap and mother*ckin quota

hfallada

Well Ireland has received billions from it and the way the EU has ****ed us over in the last few years with the bailout. I think Ireland should get as much as it can from the EU from anything including CAP. The west of Ireland would be ****ed without CAP.

The most profitable farms in Africa were in Zimbabwe (it was called the bread basket of Africa). But Mugabe took the farms from the white to give to Black friends of his who didnt know how to run farm. Now Zimbabwe relies on food aid. The problems in Africa are always blamed on the west, but generally african made problems

Crooked Jack

Without CAP the agricultural industry in ireland, our most important, most successful industry, would crumble.

hansfrei

Piddly little tiny money. CAP gets me rowsteh beef on a Sunday and not Brazillian poultry.

If €58bn didn't end up in wealthy farmers pockets it would end up in some cronied parasites bank account. CAP good. CAP more transparent than most every other subsidy paid over by non EU governments.

Mardy Bum

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Without CAP the agricultural industry in ireland, or most important, most successful industry, would crumble.

Its only a tiny percentage of the GDP compared with other industries. It used to be the biggest back in the 60s when Ireland was mad into protectionism which was brutal for the economy but its not even close now. It is only around 2% of GDP.

goose2005

OP, how is it socialist? Socialism would be if the EU gave farmers billions and then took ownership of the land, managing agricultural production for the overall good of society. Instead what we have is the EU gives farmers billions and gets nothing. The amount paid out to farmers over the years is probably enough to buy every square inch of land in the country several times over. Yet when it suits them, farmers act like they're sturdy and independent individual stalwarts.

hfallada wrote: »

Well Ireland has received billions from it and the way the EU has ****ed us over in the last few years with the bailout. I think Ireland should get as much as it can from the EU from anything including CAP. The west of Ireland would be ****ed without CAP.

You say "Ireland" as if everyone gets the money. It goes to landowners. Only landowners.

The most profitable farms in Africa were in Zimbabwe (it was called the bread basket of Africa). But Mugabe took the farms from the white to give to Black friends of his who didnt know how to run farm. Now Zimbabwe relies on food aid. The problems in Africa are always blamed on the west, but generally african made problems

Zimbabwe is just one country with one set of problems. It's very difficult even for the most agriculturally productive African farms to compete with heavily subsidised western farmers.

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Without CAP the agricultural industry in ireland, or most important, most successful industry, would crumble.

If it's so successful and important why does it need billions in handouts just to keep going?

Karl Stein

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Without CAP the agricultural industry in ireland, or most important, most successful industry, would crumble.

Why?

theGEM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Without CAP the agricultural industry in ireland, or most important, most successful industry, would crumble.

I doubt that. But lets say it did, the free market would prevail and we would turn to something we were actually efficient and good at. Instead, atm the Irish farmer is paid to be inefficient.

theGEM

goose2005 wrote: »

OP, how is it socialist? Socialism would be if the EU gave farmers billions and then took ownership of the land, managing agricultural production for the overall good of society. Instead what we have is the EU gives farmers billions and gets nothing. The amount paid out to farmers over the years is probably enough to buy every square inch of land in the country several times over. Yet when it suits them, farmers act like they're sturdy and independent individual stalwarts.

Socialism ≠ Communism .

hansfrei

goose2005 wrote: »

If it's so successful and important why does it need billions in handouts just to keep going?

Not a level playing field. Without American money and Moroccos traders, Israel wouldn't have a hope selling it's fruit produce for example.

Karl Stein

theGEM wrote: »

free market

Oh dear. There's those two words very few people understand.

There's nothing even approaching a free market anywhere on Earth and there never has been.

It’s time to start getting honest about a very simple fact: Nobody, but nobody, really believes in free markets. That’s right. Not the Republican Party, not the libertarians, not the Wall Street Journal, nobody.

Here’s why: a truly free market is a perfectly competitive market. Which means that whatever you have to sell in that market, so does your competition. Which means price war. Which means your price gets driven down. Which means little or no profit for you.

Naturally, businesses flee perfectly competitive markets like the plague. In fact, the fine art of doing so is a big part of what they teach in business schools.

rwer.wordpress.com/2011/12/18/why-free-market-economics-is-a-fraud/

Cookie_Monster

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Without CAP the agricultural industry in ireland, or most important, most successful industry, would crumble.

OR:

It would initially consolidate, getting rid of all the small operators and then become highly successful at exporting enormous quantities of daily and meat and crops without the EU imposed limits on production.

Clandestine

Sums it up well

Zebra3

theGEM wrote: »

The EU's Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) should be scrapped. €58billion of taxpayers money is given each year to European farmers to sit on their arse and mind their quotas. Not only does it increase prices for European consumers but the excess produce is dumped on the third world which destroys their local economy and then CAP places trade barriers which blocks out non-EU competition (again destroying the third world economies).

I find it ironic the political parties support this policy and then go off and give €600m in foreign aid which does virtually nothing but massage our ego.

http://www.ohchr.org/en/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=11485&LangID=E

It does exactly what it's meant to do.

Crooked Jack

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Its only a tiny percentage of the GDP compared with other industries. It used to be the biggest back in the 60s when Ireland was mad into protectionism which was brutal for the economy but its not even close now. It is only around 2% of GDP.

It's also one of the few industries that has remained strong and indeed actually grown over the course of the recession.
There's more to the value of an industry than just the GDP..

http://www.teagasc.ie/agrifood/

The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine (DAFM) currently reports the agri-food sector in Ireland contributes a value of €24 billion to the national economy, generates 6.3% of gross value added, almost 10% of Ireland’s exports and provides 7.7% of national employment. When employment in inputs, processing and marketing is included, the agri-food sector accounts for almost 10% of employment.

I'd also point out that the actual products of the agri industry are invaluable. In the event of a crisis we're going to need stuff like, y'know, food and the knowledge and ability to grow crops, over computer software manufacturing

goose2005 wrote: »

If it's so successful and important why does it need billions in handouts just to keep going?

Are you actually arguing that the agricultural industry, a primary producer, is not important? I dont even know how to respond to that.
It's performance over the course of the recession also proves it to be hugely successful.
Nor does it receive any hand outs. Europe created CAP because of how utterly essential agriculture is while also acknowledging the need to protect the environment. Farmers do not get "hand outs" just for being farmers, there are certain things they must do in order to qualify for them. It's essentially payment.
While agriculture is essential to the nation, indeed the continent as a whole, because of the way we do it here, mostly small independently owned farms, it doesnt always yield huge personal benefits for individual farmers.

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

Why?

Farming in Ireland is mostly carried out on relatively small, independent farms. While these are essential to the country the income from them for the individual farmer can be quite small. If CAP were removed many of these farms would go under. In addition to the devastating effect this would have on one of our most important industries it would also see thousands love their livelihoods, even their homes and, with precious few skills aside from farming, become a huge drain on the state. There would also be the question of what to do with all the land they lost. There's no guarantee it would be used for farming. would it just sit there until it was sold. Such a loss could turn the Irish countryside into a deserted wasteland.

theGEM wrote: »

I doubt that. But lets say it did, the free market would prevail and we would turn to something we were actually efficient and good at. Instead, atm the Irish farmer is paid to be inefficient.

Well, I doubt that, but lets say it did. So what now is to be done with the thousands of bankrupt, homeless farmers? And what about the agricultural industry itself? Are you suggesting we could get on just fine without one? We'll just import everything we need shall we? Being dependent on someone else for food, that's worked out well for us in the past.
What now is to be done with the Irish countryside? Tar over it? Or perhaps with all those pesky farmers gone it can be used as a retreat for the rich who can sit in their palatial holiday homes and watch as the land, untended, goes to wrack and ruin.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

OR:

It would initially consolidate, getting rid of all the small operators and then become highly successful at exporting enormous quantities of daily and meat and crops without the EU imposed limits on production.

So get rid of the vast majority of farms, put all the power of the agricultural industry into a few hands and then let them do whatever the hell they want with no limits protecting things like prices, sustainability and the environment?

Cookie_Monster

Crooked Jack wrote: »

So get rid of the vast majority of farms, put all the power of the agricultural industry into a few hands and then let them do whatever the hell they want with no limits protecting things like prices, sustainability and the environment?

like any market smaller suppliers will survive by differentiation, quality, unique products etc. Market forces rather at play rather than the crippled situation there is now.

Mardy Bum

Crooked Jack wrote: »

It's also one of the few industries that has remained strong and indeed actually grown over the course of the recession.
There's more to the value of an industry than just the GDP..

Value of an industry is measured in its output which is measured in GDP and the numbers employed in it. But explain to me how you place value on an industry otherwise??

Agriculture in Ireland is a miniscule part of the economy which is propped up. Thankfully a lot of farmers now are progressing in third level education and learning how to adapt rather than sticking to what their father told them forty years ago.

Crooked Jack

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Value of an industry is measured in its output which is measured in GDP and the numbers employed in it. But explain to me how you place value on an industry otherwise??

Agriculture in Ireland is a miniscule part of the economy which is propped up. Thankfully a lot of farmers now are progressing in third level education and learning how to adapt rather than sticking to what their father told them forty years ago.

And that's great. Many of them however, are still going to need CAP. This is the view of the IFA, UFU and most of our MEPs.

Mardy Bum

Crooked Jack wrote: »

And that's great. Many of them however, are still going to need CAP. This is the view of the IFA, UFU and most of our MEPs.

The only thing i took issue with was your assertion that agriculture is the most important industry in Ireland. It simply is not.of course it is the view of the IFA and co who turns down free grants