Subsidising unprofitable farms should it be done.

kjkkments

I am not a farmer or do I know very much about the agri business in Ireland but it seams to me that a large number of smaller farms in the country are simply not viable as a business. My question is should these business continue to be propped up by grants and other financial supports or should they be allowed to fail or be absorbed into larger more profitable businesses. It seams to me this money could and should be spent on much more critical items at the moment.

Conmaicne Mara

kjkkments wrote: »

I am not a farmer or do I know very much about the agri business in Ireland but it seams to me that a large number of smaller farms in the country are simply not viable as a business. My question is should these business continue to be propped up by grants and other financial supports or should they be allowed to fail or be absorbed into larger more profitable businesses. It seams to me this money could and should be spent on much more critical items at the moment.

The most of that money comes into Ireland from the EU, it is of benefit to the country as the money is then spent here. Sending it back in favour of large factory farms would be rather foolish.

kjkkments

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

The most of that money comes into Ireland from the EU, it is of benefit to the country as the money is then spent here. Sending it back in favour of large factory farms would be rather foolish.

I understand that but if the business is unprofitable wont you have to keep propping it up forever costing a fortune. The money is paid into europe by taxes and contributions so it causts someone money. Wouldn't it be better being spent of health care or research on a european level. I just seams strange that a business that is losing money every year should be allowed to keep operating at a loss when as part of a larger group it could pay its own way.

Conmaicne Mara

kjkkments wrote: »

I understand that but if the business is unprofitable wont you have to keep propping it up forever costing a fortune. The money is paid into europe by taxes and contributions so it causts someone money. Wouldn't it be better being spent of health care or research on a european level. I just seams strange that a business that is losing money every year should be allowed to keep operating at a loss when as part of a larger group it could pay its own way.

Yes but it depends on how you see it as a business. If the European PTB want, for example, hills kept in good condition then they will pay to make that happen. Because no other fool can or will do that work for them only a farmer. If they want rural communities to stay alive, farming is a large part of that. One large farmer will act like one large supermarket, it won't (IMHO) be good for society in general. You can look at things such as health care in a different way, if people didn't abuse themselves by eating crap or with cigs, drink, and driving stupidly I bet those costs would plummet, leaving more money for research.

crackcrack30

I believe, but may stand corrected, that the manipulation of product prices and payments have more of a bearing on farm profit than subsidies......can the world afford a 100% increase on farm gate prices? doubt it....

Birdnuts

kjkkments wrote: »

I understand that but if the business is unprofitable wont you have to keep propping it up forever costing a fortune. The money is paid into europe by taxes and contributions so it causts someone money. Wouldn't it be better being spent of health care or research on a european level. I just seams strange that a business that is losing money every year should be allowed to keep operating at a loss when as part of a larger group it could pay its own way.

Large factory farms would destroy the landscape that the tourism industry depends on and cause severe environmental problems like water pollution, loss of wildlife etc. Irish food is also marketed on its supposed "Green image" which would also take a hammering under this scenario. It would also lead to severe rural depopulation as most family farms would go to the wall and farmer numbers would crash. In any case it is highly dubious if factory farming would make any financial sense. You only have to look at the poor financial returns from intensive pig and poultry units with many having gone to the wall in recent years

Conmaicne Mara

crackcrack30 wrote: »

I believe, but may stand corrected, that the manipulation of product prices and payments have more of a bearing on farm profit than subsidies......can the world afford a 100% increase on farm gate prices? doubt it....

They wouldn't pay it. The world has moved to spending their disposable income on flat screen TV's etc rather than food. What's seen as the standard of living now is way above what it would have been in spending levels on non essential items.

kjkkments

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

They wouldn't pay it. The world has moved to spending their disposable income on flat screen TV's etc rather than food. What's seen as the standard of living now is way above what it would have been in spending levels on non essential items.

I see a business as something that makes a profit so that the person engaged in it can earn a living. Otherwise its just a hobby and I dont see the point in subsidising someones hobby. I am not sure what you mean by managing the hills but surley if they were just left alone they would revert to a natural state which would probably be good for the enviroment. I think biologists call it natural regression. I can see your point on community's but people without farms do manage to live in the community and there would still be people farming they would just be paying their own way not relying on handouts maybe a different use of the land would make more sense.
People are eating badly now so I cant see how profitable farms would negativly effect thst.

Conmaicne Mara

kjkkments wrote: »

I see a business as something that makes a profit so that the person engaged in it can earn a living. Otherwise its just a hobby and I dont see the point in subsidising someones hobby. I am not sure what you mean by managing the hills but surley if they were just left alone they would revert to a natural state which would probably be good for the enviroment. I think biologists call it natural regression. I can see your point on community's but people without farms do manage to live in the community and there would still be people farming they would just be paying their own way not relying on handouts maybe a different use of the land would make more sense.
People are eating badly now so I cant see how profitable farms would negativly effect thst.

The point on health care was if people changed their habits it wouldn't cost anything like it does, it's nothing to do with subsidies.

Managing the hills as in grazing. The environment needs to be managed. Land left to it's own devices will quickly revert into fairly impenetrable scrub accessible to and useful to no one.

There'd be no rural communities if large scale farming took over, all the dependent businesses would collapse, economy of scale. For example the local merchant supplying ration, fencing materials etc. where as the mill or metal company could deliver direct for large single orders.

kjkkments

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

The point on health care was if people changed their habits it wouldn't cost anything like it does, it's nothing to do with subsidies.

Managing the hills as in grazing. The environment needs to be managed. Land left to it's own devices will quickly revert into fairly impenetrable scrub accessible to and useful to no one.

There'd be no rural communities if large scale farming took over, all the dependent businesses would collapse, economy of scale. For example the local merchant supplying ration, fencing materials etc. where as the mill or metal company could deliver direct for large single orders.

Sorry I was just using healthcare as an example of something useful that could be done with the money it doesn't have to be health care.
I know initailly it would go to scrub which would in time turn to native forest not necessarily a bad thing some might say a good thing.
I just cant see how economically this type of system can be maintained long term. I live in a rural comunity myself and it makes no sence to me. I suspose if they were cut people would have to adapt and find another self sustaining form of employment. I cant imagine that Europe or the urban dwellers will be happy to keep paying to sustain a lifestyle that is essentially foreigh to them.

Birdnuts

kjkkments wrote: »

I cant imagine that Europe or the urban dwellers will be happy to keep paying to sustain a lifestyle that is essentially foreigh to them.

All European farmers benefit, not just Irish ones. US farmers actually get far more subsidies per head than EU ones. Its not as if farming is the only industry that gets state supports in any case. Look how much money the IDA etc. pays to foreign firms to re-locate here. Many of which disappear again to cheaper countries when it suits them. An Irish farmer can't do that!!


As Coinnmara stated farmers maintain many of our classic landscapes, which the likes of Tourism etc. depends on. Without such support rural business and populations would shrink and die. Farm supports also maintain higher standards of food production. Just look at the food scares in China and elsewhere to see the damage shoddy standards in this area can do. Whether your an Urban or Rural dweller I think most people would prefer irish beef or free range poultry to stuff imported from the likes of Brazil and Thailand

Zoo4m8

Bottom line, cheap food... I seem to remember seeing a statistic a couple years ago in that year The people of Ireland spent more on alcohol than food, we could afford to spend more on a non essential ( for most) than on feeding ourselves and families.. Remove supports and let the markets find their own level .. I'm all for it but I don't think the consumer at the checkout would be.

kjkkments

Birdnuts wrote: »

All European farmers benefit, not just Irish ones. US farmers actually get far more subsidies per head than EU ones. Its not as if farming is the only industry that gets state supports in any case. Look how much money the IDA etc. pays to foreign firms to re-locate here. Many of which disappear again to cheaper countries when it suits them. An Irish farmer can't do that!!


As Coinnmara stated farmers maintain many of our classic landscapes, which the likes of Tourism etc. depends on. Without such support rural business and populations would shrink and die. Farm supports also maintain higher standards of food production. Just look at the food scares in China and elsewhere to see the damage shoddy standards in this area can do. Whether your an Urban or Rural dweller I think most people would prefer irish beef or free range poultry to stuff imported from the likes of Brazil and Thailand

I know that is of course true and the same is true for those countries and you are correct about the IDA but the companies they attract provide hundreds of thousands of jobs in this country mostly at very good wages and they are all profitable and dont need large cash injections every year. I am not sure about this but I would imagine that most small farms support one family ie the owner the multinationals suport thousands. Its just my opinion but this seams like a much better use of resources. The ones that do disappear are normally replaced by newones fairly quickly and the staff move to other companies as thecskills are transferable.
I was in donadee forest today its pretty nice there and as far as I know there are more tourists visiting these sites than an irish farm. I dont think farm tourism would be a hit. Ireland will still be green so I cant see a problem. Surley the standards are set by Europe and the dept of ag the farmers job is to meet the standard otherwise you cant go to market. These scares are from poor regulation enforcement or simply no regulation. I will not argue with the quality of Irish produce as it is second to none I just think there has to be a more efficient way to produce it

Birdnuts

kjkkments wrote: »

I know that is of course true and the same is true for those countries and you are correct about the IDA but the companies they attract provide hundreds of thousands of jobs in this country mostly at very good wages and they are all profitable and dont need large cash injections every year. I am not sure about this but I would imagine that most small farms support one family ie the owner the multinationals suport thousands. Its just my opinion but this seams like a much better use of resources. The ones that do disappear are normally replaced by newones fairly quickly and the staff move to other companies as thecskills are transferable.

These firms are a mixed bag. Some do provide long term jobs at decent rates, but then a lot do not. The average IDA job cost about 330K euro per employee in grants. That's a lot of money. Most of these firms have no interest in setting up anywhere outside major towns and cities. Dublin benefits by far the most. Many of these jobs are also filled by foreigners too. At the end of the day we have a massive unemployment problem that is not going to be solved by killing an indigenous industry and putting all our eggs in one basket ie. fickle foreign corporations. Small/medium family farms support tens of thousands of farmers with much spin-off employment which shouldn't be forgotten either.

PS: It is a fact that food imported into Ireland from outside the EU does not have to meet the same standards of production as produce from farms in the EU.

kjkkments

Birdnuts wrote: »

These firms are a mixed bag. Some do provide long term jobs at decent rates, but then a lot do not. The average IDA job cost about 330K euro per employee in grants. That's a lot of money. Most of these firms have no interest in setting up anywhere outside major towns and cities. Dublin benefits by far the most. Many of these jobs are also filled by foreigners too. At the end of the day we have a massive unemployment problem that is not going to be solved by killing an indigenous industry and putting all our eggs in one basket ie. fickle foreign corporations. Small/medium family farms support tens of thousands of farmers with much spin-off employment which shouldn't be forgotten either.

PS: It is a fact that food imported into Ireland from outside the EU does not have to meet the same standards of production as produce from farms in the EU.

Average cost of ida job is about €14000 check the website average industrial wage is €42k big difference check the cso website.
I work with alot of multinationals and they are based all around the country from westport to letterkenny to asketon not just as you say major towns by any means. I didnt say kill off the industry I just ment to make profitable and self sustainable and not so reliant on handouts. I am just saying that the gravy train is bound to run out sometime and it will happen regardless.
I understand about Imported food but for you to go to market you do have to meet the standard and you get a premium for that.

Birdnuts

kjkkments wrote: »

Average cost of ida job is about €14000 check the website average industrial wage is €42k big difference check the cso website.
I work with alot of multinationals and they are based all around the country from westport to letterkenny to asketon not just as you say major towns by any means. I didnt say kill off the industry I just ment to make profitable and self sustainable and not so reliant on handouts. I am just saying that the gravy train is bound to run out sometime and it will happen regardless.
I understand about Imported food but for you to go to market you do have to meet the standard and you get a premium for that.

Sorry - my mistake, the figure I recalled included various ongoing state supports,tax breaks,building grants etc. for IDA businesses. Do you have any figures on how long the average IDA job lasts?? Private firms are also making full use of state supported schemes of varying merit like Jobsbridge and that new one which pays employers up to 10K to take someone off the dole.

In any case most smaller farms get very modest EU supports. By far the biggest gainers are the largest most intensive farmers plus large Agri - corporations, and in that respect I would agree that the CAP needs serious looking at. Unfortunately the current governments policy appears to be about maintaining the status quo at all costs.

colrow

It happened in New Zealand years ago, no subsidies there, afaik.
It's the big supermarkets like tesco,s that are being subsidised!

laoch na mona

to keep food prices down someone has to be subsidised if not the farmer then the shop. I would love to see a move towards CSA schemes and cooperative farming which would change the nature of the supply chain.

The small farm system has flaws and could be improved upon but it is much better then the factory farm system

minktrapper

Well fair play to Laoch Na Mona.At least someone has a brain between their ears.And will everyone else please try to figure out that it is not food producers that are being subsidised it is food production.When you buy food in Europe or the U.S.A. for that matter you do not pay for it at the till.The E.U. wants all of its citizens to have access to cheap food.i.e. a cheap food policy.