Issues with supervisor

LegacyUser

I'm going anonymous for the pure and simple reason that while I don't care if anyone recognises me from this post, I don't want them to see my other posts.

I apologise if this is long, and I apologise if I leave anything out. I don't want to go overkill on the details.

I am a PhD student. Well. I submitted my thesis a few weeks ago so I no longer have student status, but I'm not qualified yet.

My funding ran out so I had to move home and to a lab closer to my home (which is run by my second supervisor). Grand. I finished all of my labwork by Christmas and was told by my second supervisor we could submit the thesis. Chapters 3 and 6 were published, chapter 4 was well on the way to publication so that left chapter 5 (experimental) and chapter 1 (introduction). I sent the outstanding chapters to supervisor 2 (supervisor 1 had taken the lead on the other chapters) and while I was waiting for corrections I did some lab work (in the role of technician) for supervisor 2. It was unpaid but I didn't mind as I was happy to do it and happy to be in the lab, not to mention gaining invaluable experience in a cutting edge technique.

I was working away in the lab, every so often I would ask for corrections and nothing would come of it. Eventually we reached a point where I said that I needed to focus on thesis and that I would stop doing the labwork until after I submitted.

There was stress leading up to submission, heated words, nasty things being said, but I got over it and put my head down and got my thesis submitted. It was the most gruelling few weeks of my life. The day I submitted supervisor 2 asked if it was okay to talk about the other lab work. I was a little bit miffed - this should have been a big day - but we chatted anyway, and I took the weekend off and was back in the lab on the Tuesday.

I worked as many hours as I could, still not getting paid, and at this stage the work has nothing to do with my PhD. Everybody (friends, family) say I needed to stand up for myself and ask for payment. Yesterday I met with him to discuss sampling over the weekend, my viva exam and an assignment he had set myself and our other group members. We agreed a time for the weekend, we discussed my presentation and then we started to discuss the assignment and he got really nasty. He said that my work to date has been shoddy, that I always have an excuse ready for why something is not done, he questioned my work ethic, he told me that I'm infuriating to work with. That I am incapable of learning. That he has given me every opportunity to prove myself and I always disappoint. I'm impossible to have a conversation with because I always have to have the last word and so much that comes out of my mouth is bull **** that he doesn't know what to believe. I'm not a crier but some of the things that came out of his mouth that he said about me were horrendous.

For the record I am one of the first to arrive in the morning, one of the last to leave in the evening. In my PhD I published 3 papers with 4 more to come. I am a good experimentallist (for those in the know I get a r2 value of 0.995 on most occasions) and I work hard. I have put myself in hospital from working too hard, so while I know most of what he said about me is wrong, it was still hard to hear. When he talks about me answering back to him, it is me defending myself. One example: yesterday he mentioned supervisor 1 being held back by publishing data because I was slow to add my work in. Supervisor 1 has published the data because we, as a group, agreed to leave my data out as it fits in better elsewhere. My "answering back" was me sticking up for myself saying that I'm not slow to get data, it was decided it wasn't happening.

So while we were being open and honest I asked him about payment for the work I am doing. As I said, it is in no way related to my studies so he can't use the excuse of me being a student any more. He got really angry and said no, essentially that I don't deserve to be paid, he said that he WANTS to pay me but my work is not good enough to warrent him finding money to pay me.

Now I'm in a pickle. Supervisor 1 is not in the institute where my viva will be so the organising of examiners etc will fall to supervisor 2. It is unlikely that he will be proactive in the organising the examiners, hence delaying me even further. He told me that if I was so driven by money I should just go get a job, but the problem is any jobs I've found that I liked are abroad and would involve flying back for the exam - something I can't afford to do.

I'm at my wits end. I don't know what to do. I feel like I can't stop doing the work because of the hold he has over me, yet every time I try to stick up for myself the things that come out of his mouth about me make me very, very sad. I don't have the greatest self confidence or self esteem at the best of times so his words shatter me.

Sarn

It's a tricky situation. Firstly though, what cheek your supervisor has questioning your work ethic when you are working for free. I think you should advise him that you are taking time off due to the stress that you have been under. From your post it looks like you could do with a break.

From my experience it tends to take a couple of months between submitting your thesis and the viva. You will have to have some patience in that regard. However, it's not like you finishing your thesis was a surprise. The external and internal examiners should have been chosen at this stage, it should just be a matter of organising a date. If I remember correctly, the external and internal examiner's names should be submitted for approval before submission of the thesis. It's worth checking through your college's guidelines. If they haven't been followed then this could work to your advantage.

Can you get supervisor 1 to help move things along? As a last resort there is always your departmental head.

As you know yourself, with three papers published and another four to come, you won't have a problem with your viva. You are almost finished, just hang in there a little bit longer.

To be honest there's more to working than producing good results. Your supervisor clearly doesn't like you, and the reason why most employers appreciate good interpersonal skills is because sometimes you have to work with people you don't like. Sometimes they're clients, or team mates, or unfortunately in your case, people in a position of authority over you.

If your supervisor is breaking any codes of conduct or neglecting any clear obligations like organising your examiners, go to the department head, or even talk to your other supervisor to ask for advice.

But if the supervisor isn't doing anything blatantly wrong, you might have to look at this as a character building exercise. You say that defending yourself makes him angry - so stop defending yourself. If he says your work is shoddy ask him how you can improve it, even if he can't come up with anything tell him you'll try to do better. There's a certain amount of crap that you need to take sometimes just for the sake of peace, because fighting him or defending yourself clearly isn't resolving the situation. In his eyes your not defending yourself, you're arguing against his comments - there's no way to reason to him to like you, it's an emotional thing.

Kevo

Seems like a pretty awful situation. I'm also doing a PhD and while I have been lucky with my supervisor, I have heard many horror stories about nasty supervisors. As you said you are going to have ~7 publications from your PhD. This is exceptional for a laboratory based PhD in my opinion and it should get you past the viva.

woodchuck

Stop letting yourself get taken advantage of! Working for free to finish up your own lab work is one thing, but why on earth would you do it otherwise?! If you have your own reasons like getting your name on a paper etc that's your choice, but to be honest sounds like it's a combination of you not having a backbone and your supervisor trying to get free labour out of you.

The thesis is submitted now... so he has no hold over you anymore! In terms of getting your viva sorted, there are other people you to go to about this (e.g. supervisor 1, head of department, postgraduate school etc).

GET OUT!!!

If you really feel like you need a reason for stopping lab work (but in my opinion you really don't...) you could say that it's taking time away from (i) preparing for your viva and (ii) applying for jobs.

LegacyUser

true-or-false wrote: »

To be honest there's more to working than producing good results. Your supervisor clearly doesn't like you, and the reason why most employers appreciate good interpersonal skills is because sometimes you have to work with people you don't like. Sometimes they're clients, or team mates, or unfortunately in your case, people in a position of authority over you.

If your supervisor is breaking any codes of conduct or neglecting any clear obligations like organising your examiners, go to the department head, or even talk to your other supervisor to ask for advice.

But if the supervisor isn't doing anything blatantly wrong, you might have to look at this as a character building exercise. You say that defending yourself makes him angry - so stop defending yourself. If he says your work is shoddy ask him how you can improve it, even if he can't come up with anything tell him you'll try to do better. There's a certain amount of crap that you need to take sometimes just for the sake of peace, because fighting him or defending yourself clearly isn't resolving the situation. In his eyes your not defending yourself, you're arguing against his comments - there's no way to reason to him to like you, it's an emotional thing.

The part in bold is what confuses me. He said in the preceding sentences how much he likes me, likes my personality, what I bring to the group and how he considers me family (his exact words: I feel like I could fart in front of you). So I don't think it's a case that he dislikes me. I have also had many other jobs and never had an issue with interpersonal skills, so I genuinely don't think it's me. I am open to correction though and willing to work on things if it is the case that I am the problem.

Like I said in the OP, I am leaving out quite a lot of detail. I have been taking this crap from him for months, I just felt that now was the first time I could justifiably ask for payment for the work I am doing for free as I am no longer a student and therefore no longer obliged to attend the lab. The point I was trying to make to him was that every other student who submits their thesis gets some time off to rest or catch up with friends/family before they're into viva prep mode. I submitted my thesis on a Friday and essentially was back doing the labwork for him on the Saturday. I have cancelled weekends away so that I could go to the lab for him.

Maybe he doesn't like me, I'm over it at this stage. Its more the how-to-deal-with-the-fallout when I need him to be on my side for organising the exam.

I realise that it probably comes across as challenging him when I try to defend myself, so I won't try any more. It is just difficult to sit and listen to him say all of these things which are not true without having a chance to give my side of the story. Perhaps that is just a life lesson I need to learn.

@Sarn: supervisor 1 is in a different institute and has no weight in the place I am, and they continue to collaborate so I don't know how to approach talking to him.

dudara

I have a PhD in a science subject, but have been working full time for several years. So I think I have some perspective on this. A PhD is a horrendously tough thing to complete, but despite all the life lessons you learn, you're still quite inexperienced workwise when you finish up.

What concerns me here is your supervisors feedback on your work ethic and attitude? Have you stood back and objectively looked at his issues? Do you think he is giving you feedback that could be used as constructive criticism.

LegacyUser

dudara wrote: »

I have a PhD in a science subject, but have been working full time for several years. So I think I have some perspective on this. A PhD is a horrendously tough thing to complete, but despite all the life lessons you learn, you're still quite inexperienced workwise when you finish up.

What concerns me here is your supervisors feedback on your work ethic and attitude? Have you stood back and objectively looked at his issues? Do you think he is giving you feedback that could be used as constructive criticism.

Hey Dudara,

I have thought about his words lots and lots, they just don't make sense to me. I spent 4 years in an institute under supervisor 1 and he never had a bad word to say about my attitude or work ethic. Regardless of what was going on externally I was always in the lab from 8 am until 8 pm, working solidly through those hours. I haven't taken a proper "holiday" in 5 years, choosing only to take a day or two either side of a conference. I don't recall having a weekend "off" since my first year - I have either been in the lab over the weekends or at home writing / planning experiments. I don't think my work ethic can be called into question due to the body of work I have to show for it.

Since moving back to Dublin and being under the supervision of supervisor 2 I have been working without pay in a post-doc style position in the lab. I have been given a lot of responsibility and have done all that has been asked of me. Again, I have been in the lab every weekend since last September, I even went in over Christmas to maximise the use of the machine. I have given it my all in terms of applying myself to the position. During the thesis write up process I prioritised the lab work over my thesis work, even though I knew it would delay my submission, because I had given my word that I would work to get a certain body of work done. Again, I don't think my work ethic can be called into question because I have given it my all. I haven't taken a day off. I haven't seen my friends in months. I self funded myself to go to a conference so I could learn more about the technique.

Of any PI's I have encountered (or any supervisors from previous jobs / collaborations) none have ever criticised my work ethic. Even the other day when having our discussion supervisor 2 commented how all of the other PI's in the department commend him for his hard working students.

So I'm just really confused as to why he would call into question my work ethic, when I have given 110% to the position, without getting paid.

Regarding my attitude. I don't know. Maybe I am being passive aggressive. But that confuses me also. Other posters have said to stand up for myself, so how am I meant to do that when any time I try to give a justified, reasonable response to a query or question or comment I'm complained about for having a bad attitude? The example I gave previously still stands - he criticised me for delaying a publication even though it was decided between supervisor 1, supervisor 2, post doc and myself that the work would suit better to a different publication and supervisor 1 went ahead and published the work. All I said was that as far as I was aware the work was already published because it was decided that we would put my work into a different publication.

I am genuinely confused as to how much "constructive criticism" I am meant to take. Anybody who has been in his presence when he speaks down to me has said how out of line he is and how I should stick up for myself more. Anything he has criticised me on previously I have taken on board and changed it as much as possible. He criticised my writing style - I went to a writing workshop. I have done my best to become the person he wants me to be but slowly he is chipping away at every last shred of self confidence and self belief I have.

How can I stick up for myself and defend my work if I am not allowed discuss his criticisms?