Salvation

Geomy

If you accept that Jesus is the son of God, are you saved ?

After all didn't Jesus die on the cross so that we would all be saved.
That's if we believe that he's the son of God and maybe you don't need to believe all the contradictions that various Christian sects come up with.

With all those different interpretations of the Bible, which one has it right ?

I think salvation is about your personal relationship with God/Jesus and not your relationship with religion...

martinedwards

I accept that the magnum 357 was the biggest handgun ever made.....

But it doesn't make me Dirty Harry

yes there are a million different takes on the whole thing, but to ME, just accepting that he was who he said he was will lead to a more in depth relationship.

Geomy

It's quite simple really isn't it.
There's lots of so call sinner's who due to having medical conditions and mental health problems who can't help being pedantic, moody, angry, high, sad, violent, agressive....

They know they are not well but just haven't got the full strength to stop acting out in so called sinful ways, sometimes outside intervention can help but not always.

So if 'God in his gracious kindness declares us not guilty.
He has done this through Christ Jesus, who has freed us by taking away our sins'.

Does this mean that Salvation is given freely by God to sinful people.

'God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life'.

Geomy

martinedwards wrote: »

I accept that the magnum 357 was the biggest handgun ever made.....

But it doesn't make me Dirty Harry

yes there are a million different takes on the whole thing, but to ME, just accepting that he was who he said he was will lead to a more in depth relationship.

I spent half my life feeling like im 'DIRTY HARRY'

That was due to the Catholic Church and it's take on what's right and wrong.

But now that I found out that it's not about Religion but more about a personal relationship with Jesus/God.

Religion is ok for lost sheep and people who find they need direction from a pastor or a priest or like to congregate as a group for worship.

But the personal relationship sound's more like my kind of spirituality :-)

Benny_Cake

Geomy wrote: »

But now that I found out that it's not about Religion but more about a personal relationship with Jesus/God.

Religion is ok for lost sheep and people who find they need direction from a pastor or a priest or like to congregate as a group for worship.

But the personal relationship sound's more like my kind of spirituality :-)

I don't think that being part of a religious community precludes a personal relationship with God, if you're a Christian I think a personal relationship with God is necessary. Being part of a community isn't essential, but it is greatly helpful, most people by their nature are social creatures. Sharing worship with people who hold similar beliefs or values helps that personal relationship greatly in my view. Finding a group of people you feel at home among is often the problem of course.

indy_man

Geomy wrote: »

I spent half my life feeling like im 'DIRTY HARRY'

That was due to the Catholic Church and it's take on what's right and wrong.

But now that I found out that it's not about Religion but more about a personal relationship with Jesus/God.

Religion is ok for lost sheep and people who find they need direction from a pastor or a priest or like to congregate as a group for worship.

But the personal relationship sound's more like my kind of spirituality :-)

The Catholic Church's take on salvation is ...
'God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life'.

The Catholic Church is the most mystical of all Christian churches where a deep strong and sincere relationship with Christ is not only possible but unavoidable for the devout.

I believe though that all Christian churches weather Protestant or Catholic\Orthodox are all brothers and sisters in Christ. For me having a religion gives me 2000 years of guidance from the church fathers like St Francis, Padre Pio, etc, 2000 years built on top of the holy Bible. I'm not saying there hasn't been errors and mistakes, but when there is evil there is going to be attacks from both inside and outside. This had been prophesied.

tommy2bad

Geomy wrote: »

I spent half my life feeling like im 'DIRTY HARRY'

That was due to the Catholic Church and it's take on what's right and wrong.

But now that I found out that it's not about Religion but more about a personal relationship with Jesus/God.

Religion is ok for lost sheep and people who find they need direction from a pastor or a priest or like to congregate as a group for worship.

But the personal relationship sound's more like my kind of spirituality :-)

Going against myself here as I'm no longer active in any church but I think being a christian is by definition being part of a group.
I don't think a relationship with God is possible as an individual. Not sure what this says about all the hermits but isn't their some thing about 'where two or more are gathered...'

Geomy

tommy2bad wrote: »

Going against myself here as I'm no longer active in any church but I think being a christian is by definition being part of a group.
I don't think a relationship with God is possible as an individual. Not sure what this says about all the hermits but isn't their some thing about 'where two or more are gathered...'

Where two or more are gathered, it's called a meeting ;-)

MrPudding

martinedwards wrote: »

I accept that the magnum 357 was the biggest handgun ever made.....

Yet another thing you accept that is wrong.

MrP

Lantus

Geomy wrote: »

If you accept that Jesus is the son of God, are you saved ?

After all didn't Jesus die on the cross so that we would all be saved.
That's if we believe that he's the son of God and maybe you don't need to believe all the contradictions that various Christian sects come up with.

With all those different interpretations of the Bible, which one has it right ?

I think salvation is about your personal relationship with God/Jesus and not your relationship with religion...

Jesus didn't die because he sprung back into life several days later and then ascended to heaven to have a nice continuation of his existence with his dad; according to the Bible.

If God knows everything then he knew that there was nothing to worry about. His son wasn't really dying as you can't kill an immortal being like Jesus and it was never his plan to let him come to any long term harm.

So where was the sacrifice?

Geomy

Lantus wrote: »

Jesus didn't die because he sprung back into life several days later and then ascended to heaven to have a nice continuation of his existence with his dad; according to the Bible.

If God knows everything then he knew that there was nothing to worry about. His son wasn't really dying as you can't kill an immortal being like Jesus and it was never his plan to let him come to any long term harm.

So where was the sacrifice?

Sound's like you know more than me about Jesus, im all ears carry on :-)

Festy

Geomy wrote: »

If you accept that Jesus is the son of God, are you saved ?

After all didn't Jesus die on the cross so that we would all be saved.
That's if we believe that he's the son of God and maybe you don't need to believe all the contradictions that various Christian sects come up with.

With all those different interpretations of the Bible, which one has it right ?

I think salvation is about your personal relationship with God/Jesus and not your relationship with religion...

You're spot on.It's not about religion,salvation is through Jesus Christ alone. Like Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"

Sure what did Jesus say to the thief on the cross "today you will be with Me in Paradise"

So pray to him and him only.

my my my

if you can say the Our Father and get through the day you'll be ok

MrPudding

Geomy wrote: »

Sound's like you know more than me about Jesus, im all ears carry on :-)

It's a fair point. As someone on boards said before, can't remember who, "if I knew I would rise three days later I would die for my cat."

What, exactly, is the sacrifice when you know you will rise again? Had Jesus been sent to earth, been executed and then sent to hell for eternity for our sins, that would be a sacrifice. To be sent to earth for 33 years, be executed, remain dead for three days, walk around for a bit and then assend into heaven to sit beside yourself for eternity is a worst, a minor inconvenience for a supposed deity.

MrP

antiskeptic

Festy wrote: »

So pray to him and him only.

On what basis? He appears to have prayed to the Father and exhorted his followers to do same..

indy_man

Festy wrote: »

You're spot on.It's not about religion,salvation is through Jesus Christ alone. Like Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"

Sure what did Jesus say to the thief on the cross "today you will be with Me in Paradise"

So pray to him and him only.

You are right, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" This is completely correct. Jesus is the only way to to God and Jesus will judge us all. But you can not just say you accept Jesus as your personal saviour, claim you are born again then descend back into sin, adultery, murder, etc, and then expect to be saved. See the parable of the sower.

The reading at my church today was about entering heaven through the narrow door. You do not get through the narrow door by just saying you accept Jesus as you saviour, its a much bigger commitment than that, its a new life you have to live after that right up until you die. I'm sure we must pretty much agree on that though.

But if you have a close personal relationship with Christ and have a good handle on sin and are truly repentant for your sins then I think you are well on the way. But having community and fellowship with other believers makes this journey easier and has other benefits. Did St Paul not dedicate much of his life to setting up churches and ensuring they followed correct doctrines?

BrianCalgary

Nice thread until Lantus and MrP come on with their snide comments. This is exactly why I stayed away from boards for so many years.

I would suggest that the both of you read what happened to Jesus from the time he was arrested until the time he died. Then you will see where the sacrifice occurred. The torture and the pain was excruciating.

Comparing it to dying for your cat is pretty offensive.

Festy

antiskeptic wrote: »

On what basis? He appears to have prayed to the Father and exhorted his followers to do same..

It's all about understanding the Trinity.

antiskeptic

Festy wrote: »

It's all about understanding the Trinity.

Go on..

MrPudding

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Nice thread until Lantus and MrP come on with their snide comments. This is exactly why I stayed away from boards for so many years.

I would suggest that the both of you read what happened to Jesus from the time he was arrested until the time he died. Then you will see where the sacrifice occurred. The torture and the pain was excruciating.

Comparing it to dying for your cat is pretty offensive.

I have read the bible, pretty much the entire thing, in fact. Perhaps you can educate me as to what the big deal is... Seriously, I fail to see the sacrifice in a. immortal being dying for three days in the knowledge that be would rise again.

I would die for my kids knowing I would not rise again. Plenty of people have died for strangers throughout history.

MrP

antiskeptic

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Nice thread until Lantus and MrP come on with their snide comments. This is exactly why I stayed away from boards for so many years.

I would suggest that the both of you read what happened to Jesus from the time he was arrested until the time he died. Then you will see where the sacrifice occurred. The torture and the pain was excruciating.

Comparing it to dying for your cat is pretty offensive.

To be fair: although MrP speaks in the same hyperbolic language of his master, he has a point.

If Jesus' suffering was 'limited' to his physical suffering then it's understandable people will say "so what". Lot's of people have suffered excruciating agony and injustice for a lot longer than three days.

Festy

antiskeptic wrote: »

Go on..

http://carm.org/what-trinity

MrPudding

antiskeptic wrote: »

To be fair: although MrP speaks in the same hyperbolic language of his master, he has a point.

If Jesus' suffering was 'limited' to his physical suffering then it's understandable people will say "so what". Lot's of people have suffered excruciating agony and injustice for a lot longer than three days.

Ok, I'll bite, who is my master?

MrP

Geomy

MrPudding wrote: »

Ok, I'll bite, who is my master?

MrP

Well they're giving out free biscuits in the other forum, take a bite over there ;-)

antiskeptic

Festy wrote: »

http://carm.org/what-trinity

Could you cut and paste the bit that deals with your contention?

antiskeptic

MrPudding wrote: »

Ok, I'll bite, who is my master?

MrP

Pope Benedawkins of course..

Geomy

antiskeptic wrote: »

Pope Benedawkins of course..

Benadawkins sound's like a good name for a Biscuit. ...

Posh biscuits....

MrPudding

antiskeptic wrote: »

Pope Benedawkins of course..

LOL. Of course. Good effort.

MrP

lmaopml

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I would suggest that the both of you read what happened to Jesus from the time he was arrested until the time he died. Then you will see where the sacrifice occurred. The torture and the pain was excruciating.

Quite true Brian, I think you are right, however, I think the Sacrifice started on the night of the last Supper which is when Jesus spoke of a 'New and everlasting Covenant', and how his life is not taken from him, but it is freely laid down by him.

The Passover was a shadow of this moment in time when Christ, God the Son would himself become sin for us. It's here that the passion narrative starts I think....I guess it's difficult for some 2000 years later to understand what happened over the course of that time between the last Supper and the Resurrection. In particular for people who don't even see 'sin' as a reality - and don't see Jesus as God.

In the garden of Gethsemane Jesus, abandoned by his desciples descends into the depths of sin by taking on sin and indeed death itself, the great enemy, by accepting the last 'cup' of the Passover, the sin of the world - he sweated blood, and suffered physically, but remembering, as Christians do that sin seperates us from God - imagine the torment of 'Love and innocence' itself descending into our physical suffering and our bondage to sin and feeling that abandonment by God, that distance from God? The mental anguish.... The Cross is God loving God and God loving man and reconciling a broken relationship with the only antidote.

Nobody can ever say that God doesn't know anything about suffering, he became suffering and even made THAT a means of redemption. Jesus is the great physician - it's a term that was used a lot in Christianity and I think it's very relevant.

He came to 'shine a light in the dark', he descended into that darkness to pull us out of it - and I think when we see sin and recognise the 'chains' it puts around us, the bondage to self love and self serving how it is never fulfilling, promising everything - but delivering only emptiness and destruction and despair - then I think we see more clearly that act of pure love when our God stumbled to his throne, purity itself bruised, rejected, beaten and even hated - and he still loved, because that's what God is.

Perfect love, perfect holiness - descended into the depths of our depair in order to conquer it for us. Not 'for himself' - but for us, even though we can't add anything to God, or take anything away - perfect love, loves, and the Cross speaks to Christians, because that's the walk we're called to go on, that's the cure for our sickness and brings meaning to our suffering, and healing to our wounds and finally redemption.

They say Christ came to set us free from 'sin' - and Buddha wanted to set us free from 'suffering' by making ourselves detached from and not effected by the world, losing ourselves, our ego etc. This is quite seductive in a painful world I think.

Christ tells us we've got to live in it, and suffering can be redemptive because it enables us to see clearly that sin is at the root, and it's this that he conquered by becoming it for us, each and everyone so that we might have real life and fully live it accepting all things on the way, even suffering. He made all things new. Upside down and inside out for some, both Christ and his Cross is a stumbling block for many - as he said it would be.

hinault

Geomy wrote: »

If you accept that Jesus is the son of God, are you saved ?

After all didn't Jesus die on the cross so that we would all be saved.
That's if we believe that he's the son of God and maybe you don't need to believe all the contradictions that various Christian sects come up with.

With all those different interpretations of the Bible, which one has it right ?

I think salvation is about your personal relationship with God/Jesus and not your relationship with religion...

We're all the mercy of God.

And that mercy isn't guaranteed by faith alone. Faith is important for sure.
However everyone who claims to have faith in God through Christianity is also required to do good works.

The three central tenets are Faith, Hope and Charity.
Charity includes doing good works by God and your fellow human being.

santing

hinault wrote: »

We're all the mercy of God.

And that mercy isn't guaranteed by faith alone.

Indeed, mercy is not guaranteed by faith but by God. We are at the mercy of God, but this is a certainty, not a probability. According to the apostles Paul and Peter we already have received this mercy:

But God, being rich in mercy ... made us alive together with Christ ... and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace ... . For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (Eph 2:4-8)
and
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again ... (1Pe 1:3)

hinault

santing wrote: »

Indeed, mercy is not guaranteed by faith but by God. We are at the mercy of God, but this is a certainty, not a probability. According to the apostles Paul and Peter we already have received this mercy:

Epistle of St.James says that Faith is dead without works.

tommy2bad

hinault wrote: »

Epistle of St.James says that Faith is dead without works.

False dichotomy this faith or works thing. It's not one or the other, faith is supposed to produce the works. They are the expression of faith.

santing

hinault wrote: »

Epistle of St.James says that Faith is dead without works.

Amen to that! If we don't produce good works we are [spiritually] dead. But we don't produce good works in order to live, but because we live. Just like an apple tree doesn't become an apple tree because it bears apples! But if the tree doesn't produce fruit it is useless.

hinault

tommy2bad wrote: »

False dichotomy this faith or works thing. It's not one or the other, faith is supposed to produce the works. They are the expression of faith.

The false dichotomy is put forward by those who rely solely on their faith, as distinct from reliance on deeds and faith combined.

hinault

A further thought on Faith is that we need to follow the example of Jesus Christ.

As we know Jesus was "true God and true man".
We know that Jesus' faith was complete to the extent that it is beyond all human understanding.

We also know that Jesus set us the example of doing good deeds through his ministry on Earth and His teaching that we must do good deeds for our fellow human beings.
We may also be required to suffer for our faith too.

leonil7

"Jesus faith" ? - now that is something new. This is a postulate not a fact.
This is a misunderstanding of what 'faith' really is, and the reason for many right or wrong conclusions.

SoulandForm

hinault wrote: »

Epistle of St.James says that Faith is dead without works.

Yes but St James talks about doing the works of Faith.

Faith is the bedrock on which everything else is built- and as we see with the thief on the Cross, Faith ALONE can save. Even the most rigid RC accepts that death bed conversions if sincere can lead to paradise.

At the end of the day though you could argue that ultimately its God's mercy alone that saves- though it acts through Faith and good deeds done for the sake of God.