Students-Would you be happy with an unqualified teacher delivering a Lc Subject

jimbo28

As per title, would you put up with this in your leaving cert year.I would like to hear some reactions from you on this particular thread?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057021460

spurious

Please note, if replying in that thread, that the Teaching and Lecturing charter applies.

LC 2015

Ughh I seen this thread the other day and was really annoyed at some of the responses. Now I understand management have put the OP in a difficult position and all that, but even still - It's the leaving cert!

I think this sums up my feelings ->

Dilly. wrote: »

There is more to being a teacher than relaying information from a book. Any teacher worth their salt will want to instill a passion for the subject within their pupils. If the teacher does not understand or have an interest in the subject themselves they will not be able to do this. I feel for the teacher being put in this position, I really do, but to accept this job is unfair on the students. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Do you think it is ok for the subject to be offered and delivered by someone who is not qualified and not confident in delivering it?

spurious

Of course the teacher should be qualified.
Of course someone should not be forced to teach a subject they are not qualified in, but this is the reality of the cuts in education.

It will only get worse. People are retiring and not being replaced. New teachers are not getting 'proper' full jobs, they are being offered a few hours here and there. We had over 300 applicants in our school for a 4 hour Chemistry position last year, six of whom had Ph.D.s - madness.

This is what goes on behind the scenes in Irish schools, but students often only see maybe a few extra in their class, HL and OL in the one class, subjects being dropped, subject choices being restricted. Schools usually try to manage as best they can, but sometimes it's just not possible and subjects have to be dropped unless someone on the staff can be asked to take them, even if not qualified.

LC 2015

spurious wrote: »

Of course the teacher should be qualified.
Of course someone should not be forced to teach a subject they are not qualified in, but this is the reality of the cuts in education.

It will only get worse. People are retiring and not being replaced. New teachers are not getting 'proper' full jobs, they are being offered a few hours here and there. We had over 300 applicants in our school for a 4 hour Chemistry position last year, six of whom had Ph.D.s - madness.

This is what goes on behind the scenes in Irish schools, but students often only see maybe a few extra in their class, HL and OL in the one class, subjects being dropped, subject choices being restricted. Schools usually try to manage as best they can, but sometimes it's just not possible and subjects have to be dropped unless someone on the staff can be asked to take them, even if not qualified.

....You mean some schools separate HL & OL classes? :eek:

I do understand where you're coming from though, my school is after hiring about 8 new part time staff - It's ridiculous.

jimbo28

Well, I think that its important that students should have a say, it is their education after all..............Let us see what the young people of boards think! Maybe they should ask their parents would something similar happen in their workplace?

Eogclouder

LC 2015 wrote: »

....You mean some schools separate HL & OL classes? :eek:

I do understand where you're coming from though, my school is after hiring about 8 new part time staff - It's ridiculous.

Is seperating classes not normal? They're often covering different material.

LC 2015

Eogclouder wrote: »

Is seperating classes not normal? They're often covering different material.

Maybe for the leaving?...We only separated for junior cert maths & irish, but that was only for 3rd year.

peekachoo

In our school for LC only English Irish and maths were separated for HL/OL.
For other subjects like geography and biology the OL students were usually ignored and told to do papers :eek:

Senor Chang

I had a biology teacher-turned physics teacher for 6th year physics after the schools physics teacher retired. After the whole class (bar one) nearly failing/failing the mocks, we complained to the principal and got grinds from the retired teacher. Without that and my extra time and effort in the subject (it really did take over) I ultimately got a B3. If you really dont understand the physics course it most definitely shows, and reading from the book is pretty useless. If you really are being pushed into it, make sure you fully understand the concepts (in such short notice I can see problems here), have comprehensive examples and youll have to work really hard on the maths of it all (trust me, the book isnt good enough here). If there is any way at all of you avoiding taking on this job, do so but if it really is the only way, then thats that. Just dont go around the room asking the top students if they understand and if they could explain it to you, as my teacher did, it really doesnt instil that all important confidence

Peregrine

LC 2015 wrote: »

Maybe for the leaving?...We only separated for junior cert maths & irish, but that was only for 3rd year.

As peekachoo said, you'll more than likely be separated for the core subjects.

In my school, we're separated for the 3 core and French. They were trying to get a 3rd class for English and Maths in 6th year for the better ordinary and the ones who dropped down from HL but I don't think that's going to happen..

Anyway, kinda OT.

Edit: I'm talking about the Leaving Cert of course, everyone was in the same class for the JC regardless of OL/HL.

jimbo28

Senor Chang wrote: »

I had a biology teacher-turned physics teacher for 6th year physics after the schools physics teacher retired. After the whole class (bar one) nearly failing/failing the mocks, we complained to the principal and got grinds from the retired teacher. Without that and my extra time and effort in the subject (it really did take over) I ultimately got a B3. If you really dont understand the physics course it most definitely shows, and reading from the book is pretty useless. If you really are being pushed into it, make sure you fully understand the concepts (in such short notice I can see problems here), have comprehensive examples and youll have to work really hard on the maths of it all (trust me, the book isnt good enough here). If there is any way at all of you avoiding taking on this job, do so but if it really is the only way, then thats that. Just dont go around the room asking the top students if they understand and if they could explain it to you, as my teacher did, it really doesnt instil that all important confidence

Well done:).............maybe you were capable of an "A" if you had this retired teacher for the whole year? A good example of people power......well done again.

spurious

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

As peekachoo said, you'll more than likely be separated for the core subjects.

In my school, we're separated for the 3 core and French. They were trying to get a 3rd class for English and Maths in 6th year for the better ordinary and the ones who dropped down from HL but I don't think that's going to happen..

Anyway, kinda OT.

Edit: I'm talking about the Leaving Cert of course, everyone was in the same class for the JC regardless of OL/HL.

Not really OT though, as the knock-on of having a separate HL or 'high' OL class could easily be the dropping of another subject or a loss of hours for someone who was qualified in a particular subject, leading to an unqualified person being pressurised to take it instead.

Days 298

A teacher should be qualified. Reading that thread Im shocked. The teacher will be one chapter ahead. Its a joke teachers dont have to be qualified. The effect of a crap physics teacher will mean the bottom of the class will all drop the subject, the top will disregard the teacher. Its likely at least one student will be a better learner than the teacher and thus be ahead of the "teacher".

In my school the physics teacher left after Christmas. The teacher gave us advanced warning. Students harassed (if thats the right word) the principal and inquired with the leaving teacher what the story was. When the holidays approached the teacher instructed us how to deal with a bad teacher i.e tell the principal repeatedly, get parents involved. Don't take it lying down basically. A good teacher came luckily.

If they scrapped transition year they could get rid of a good few teachers in my school anyway and take on some more good ones. So many "experienced" bad teacher confined to one year all given pointless modules/classes. In the school there are teachers who do so much extra for 5ft and 6th years, others do the job and no more, others who cant talk to children nevermind teach and then theres the fourth year teachers, its like they are in quarantine away from the important years,I'm surprised the Gov has not targeted it yet.

EDIT: May as throw in that this is my opinion and experience. I may be wrong, and I know all schools are different.

Senor Chang

jimbo28 wrote: »

Well done:).............maybe you were capable of an "A" if you had this retired teacher for the whole year? A good example of people power......well done again.

Thank you Yeah I may have gotten an A had the circumstance been different, I started off well with the retired teacher anyway and Im just thankful we got one year with her and covered the most difficult topics of the course. Id also like to say that in 6th year 2 people completely dropped physics because they felt theyd be better off not wasting the energy. Also, my (naturally very intelligent) friend actually went ahead of the teacher and basically taught herself most of the 6th year material and I think got an A.

Tbh I think the principal is completely underestimating the backlash from this. Parents of the students in my class complained at parent-teacher meetings and we complained and had to go through numerous meetings with the principal to get something done. They then got another, qualified, teacher to teach for the next years. At the end of the day I think therell be a new physics teacher in the OPs school some time down the line, may as well do it now and dont do an injustice to the students

CookieMonster.x

All teachers should be qualified. However in saying that, you could get an unqualified teacher who is miles better and more enthusiastic than a teacher who has been qualified for 20+ years.
I know a teacher who was asked to teach French to 5th years. I know there are cut backs but this is unacceptable. There are so many teachers looking for jobs, why not get an actual French teacher for a French teaching position? I had no French teacher for over 5 months and around 2 months in 5th year. Probably a bit off the point but I have had teachers who have 30+ years of teaching and are qualified but who couldn't care less about students and who spend more time out getting tea or looking up weight watchers websites than actually teaching the class. Saying that there are some truly fantastic teachers who are really dedicated to their jobs and to their students.

Peregrine

spurious wrote: »

Not really OT though, as the knock-on of having a separate HL or 'high' OL class could easily be the dropping of another subject or a loss of hours for someone who was qualified in a particular subject, leading to an unqualified person being pressurised to take it instead.

Being from a small segregated school in a disadvantaged area, we only have 6 or 7 subject choices to begin with plus 1 foreign language for everyone. If one of those was dropped because of a retiring teacher or something..well..the choice we'd be left with would be beyond outrageous

Luckily, I know the management definitely won't drop a subject or force teachers to teach subjects they're not qualified so they can offer a second OL class in the core subjects.

peekachoo

+1 with cookie monster there.
a teacher we had for a HL subject from 1st through 6th year would throw notes up on the board, freeze the laptop screen and spend the class online shopping. On more than one occasion she'd stop us taking notes to ask opinions on things like dresses! And she'd be playing music off YouTube and all this crazy stuff, she clearly couldn't give a crap about her students. We were left with piles of notes which meant nothing to us, ultimately i was getting Ds in exams.

So once i started 6th year i decided enough was enough and as i couldn't find any grinds available in my area i went to a friend of my older sister who did the subject. She's doing a degree in computers, completely unrelated to the subject but it was her favourite subject in school. She tutored me every week for the year and the subject ended up being my best in the LC.

I'm not saying that unqualified teachers are acceptable in the schools, especially just how many unemployed teachers there are out there. Teachers within schools shouldnt be asked to teach other subjects either.
When i did TY a french teacher was forced to teach us Toastmasters and she didnt even know what it was!!

Education should be one sector the country should be investing in, not the opposite and schools shouldn't be put in the position of having their students being taught subjects by adults who aren't educated in them. Having said that the key still lies in employing good and passionate teachers.

jimbo28

For anybody faced with the situation that we are currently discussing, here is some light reading for you

http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/_fileupload/Professional%20Standards/code_of_conduct_2012_web%2019June2012.pdf

linguist

Students and parents should have access to the subjects teachers are qualified to teach when they search the Teaching Council register. This problem is much more serious than the lack of fully qualified teachers on school staffs that seems to account for many of the contributions here so far. There are cases that I am personally aware of where fully qualified teachers are available but not timetabled effectively meaning that they are sitting in the staffroom when unqualified people are taking classes in their subject area. This happens more at junior cycle but it is a total disgrace. And let's not pretend students don't notice because plenty of them can tell when the person teaching them isn't on top of the material.

Sunny!!

As a student i'd be very annoyed tbh but when are students or even teachers ever listened to in this country!

If I was in your position i'd take the extra hours times are tough!

I think you should try to make sure that you prepare a good bit in advance maybe a week or two.

A good idea would be maybe to make your own notes bearing the syllabus in mind you'll learn more yourself that way.

Whatever you do don't just read out of the text book students absolutely hate that and its pointless and ineffective for any science subject really.

I think group work would be effective in this scenario where there is less pressure on you. You can prepare some questions and answers before class and tell the students to do them then you can go around showing them the answers you'd be after learning.


I feel a bit weary about giving you advice because i'm only a student but whatever you do try and get the students more active and try and make it fun for them!

HugsiePie

Having had unqualified teachers teach me through out LC and JC, no, I found that many of these unqualifid teachers hated teaching, and having to deal with students, 2 of these teachers I had for 3rd year and 5th year later decided ot to do teaching and both of these teachers destroyed their respective subjects for me, I lost and talent and liking for the subjects I once had. Thatbeing said Ive had another unqualified teacher teach me who did a fantastic job, she was a fabulous teacher! I wish she had stayed in the school after becoming qualified. Personally I believe f youre going to have a teacher in for teacher training give the bulk of their time table over to 1st and 2nd years, as giving them to 5th years will affect their LC (I know from personal experience) perhaps only 1 class a week with JC, LC, and 5th years,

ilovesmybrick

My two cents in this would be that the best teacher by far that I ever had for LC and JC (same teacher) was completely unqualified in the subject. I only found this out a few years later but as it turns out the subject was to be dropped, he volunteered, and taught himself the curriculum from scratch and taught to a standard that none of my university lecturers ever managed. Eventually a qualified teacher got hired and was an unmitigated disaster.

That being said, this is the exception rather than the rule. A teacher should really be qualified for the subject in which they are teaching. Unfortunately we are stuck in a country where education is treated like crap by the powers that be, who when they discuss class sizes always forget to mention that increasing class sizes does not mean an extra student per class, it means a subject lost. The public gives out about the apparently exorbinant pay for teachers, but you rarely hear the fact that it is our teachers that provide us with our future opportunities in life stated. It is in all our interests to have a well educated educational sector.

If you are being stuck with an unqualified teacher who's not up to scratch don't just write a letter or complain to the principal (because they are probably more than likely aware of the situation but been stuck with it due to lack of recruitment), write letters to your local TD and that philistine apparently running the department of education. Young teachers are being put in difficult positions, teach this or lose your position, they do need support and the only way that will happen is when the politicians realise that people really care about the state of our education system.

randylonghorn

Teachers should be fully capable of teaching their subject and be enthusiastic about teaching it, that's the really important bit.

Ok, 19 times out of 20 that will be indicated by the fact that they are fully qualified in it, but as several people have said, a lot of us have had teachers who were unqualified (or more often qualified in other subjects than they were teaching us) and they were A1. ** And others have had fully qualified teachers teaching their own subject and they were pisspoor.

Ideally, all teachers should be fully qualified in the subjects they teach, but that isn't the whole story, and personally I'd prefer an unqualified teacher who knew the material, could teach and was passionate about it than someone with a masters and umpteen qualifications who couldn't teach for nuts ... or care less.

In fairness, the OP in that thread linked is quite honest that she doesn't know the subject and doesn't feel capable of teaching it, and should never have been put in that position.



** I've mentioned here before that I was taught JC Science by a geography teacher (admittedly, a degree in geography has some elements of science, but it's still not a degree in science) who loved the subject, and who could teach, and who could break it down and help us to understand it, even those not naturally science-y. Highest proportion of A-grades in JC in that class (and we had some damn good teachers generally).

a0ifee

it's kind of a ridiculous situation, like if someone's teaching a subject they should know what they're doing. It's painfully obvious for a student when the teacher doesn't know anything. Like I remember we had a teacher in second year who clearly didn't know what she was doing, and a couple of us ended up having to drop higher level as a result.

it sucks that cuts keep being made to the education sector when it's so important. But I don't even think this is a recent thing because my mother (who's a teacher) had to teach subjects like home ec and geography years ago, subjects she had maybe a bit of common knowledge in. It's a bit ridiculous tbh. I hope the OP in that post is able to stand their ground without it affecting their job, the difference between biology & physics is enormous!

linguist

It's an issue that I really feel strongly about because it goes to the core of the pass the buck that still goes on in the education system despite the supposed steps that have been put in place to deal with it, not least the Teaching Council.

1) The Department of Education famously pays the teachers but schools employ them. The greatest cop-out clause of them all. So principals and BOMs can employ and deploy teachers as they see fit and the State just coughs up the money.
2) The Teaching Council requires teachers to be registered with it and you can't appoint an unregistered/unqualified teacher (except for those 'VEC only' read: no HDip. people they can't get rid of) but once appointed you can assign them to teach anything and what does the Council do? As ever, nothing.
3) There are teachers on RPT posts who are fully qualified in subjects sitting in staffrooms as permanent teachers with an entitlement to 22 hours are deployed to teach their subjects without any qualifications. Trust me, it is happening. Naturally, the non-permanent teachers are in a completely weak situation and daren't raise their voices.
4) Surprise surprise, the one vital piece of information the public can't consult on the Teaching Council website is the subjects teachers are actually qualified to teach. And I've never heard so much as a whimper about this from the media etc. who are so quick to bash teachers on the usual topics but seem not to care about this one, critical issue.
5) You might get a rap across the knuckles in an inspection report but many principals have developed a thick, managerial skin which makes them far less scared of those than they might be.

So, in Emile Zola style, I accuse the Teaching Council and the Department of Education of being absolutely complicit in allowing a situation to continue where pupils are being taught by unqualified people. Let's get away from this being solely about education cuts. It can be about the management of individual schools, favouritism or even victimisation of individual teachers and even downright incompetence or ignorance of the knowledge and skills required in particular subjects. I'm grateful that this topic has been raised because maybe the pupils and their parents will start asking the right questions. Of course, cutbacks are the issue in many cases but it is not the only issue and we shouldn't allow those in power in education to hide behind it completely.