The Need for Stronger Incentives

billybartley

Hello all:

One thing I have been thinking about lately is what effects incentives might have in the secondary and primary school systems. We hear a lot about how teachers are under-qualified or just plain bad.

How about an incentive system based on test scores? and tying teacher salary to test scores? We should introduced standardized testing in primary schools, and base salary increases, decreases, and even employment status based on test scores. We could do the same with JC and LC results.

If a teacher is constantly above the national average, regional average, etc. they get a pay increase? And the reverse. We could use the test scores to design interventions to improve teaching, perhaps during the long summer months teachers have free. And teachers who do not improve are fired.

Any thoughts?

rainbowtrout

And how do you reward the teachers who are breaking their backs everyday with students from disadvantaged areas where turning up to school is an achievement, but typically many of these students are in the cohort of early school leavers poor grades etc.

Easy to reward the teachers who teach in schools which select only the best and brightest students, who are motivated and have supportive parents in the background. Some of these schools also do not want to take students with problems: behavioural, intellectual, physical etc, etc.

Do the honours maths teachers get a bonus because their students secured high grades, which is not out of the ordinary as you tend to have high achievers taking the subject, but the foundation maths teacher get nothing for the class where there is a proportionally higher number of underachievers in the group?

We hear a lot about how teachers are under-qualified or just plain bad.

As for this, you are just trolling.

whiteandlight

I'm going to take this at face value for the moment and assume you are not trolling.

Have you read the research on this? Any study I have read found that this has not worked.

Massive problems are introduced by tying salaries to test scores-teachers are already accused of teaching to the test in LC, can you imagine what it would be like if our pay was tied to that?

What if the exam class you have just aren't average? I had the 12 weakest students in their year in maths LC last year. They did themselves and I proud but their results would be way below the national standard. No one would want to teach them if their pay was linked to their performance in line with the national standard

billybartley

Musicmental85 wrote: »

I'm going to take this at face value for the moment and assume you are not trolling.

Have you read the research on this? Any study I have read found that this has not worked.

Massive problems are introduced by tying salaries to test scores-teachers are already accused of teaching to the test in LC, can you imagine what it would be like if our pay was tied to that?

What if the exam class you have just aren't average? I had the 12 weakest students in their year in maths LC last year. They did themselves and I proud but their results would be way below the national standard. No one would want to teach them if their pay was linked to their performance in line with the national standard

Ok. These are valid points, and I must admit that I am not familiar with the research on this topic, so please feel free to share more specific findings.

The gaming is a key issues - but the tests could be designed to test understanding and skills rather than memory.

I think that you can design a system that adjusts for differences in ability. If we had standardized tests, something that would measure general cognitive ability (g) then we could control for differences in ability.

I don't doubt that such a system would have some difficulties, but do you not agree with the idea of such a system?

billybartley

rainbowtrout wrote: »

And how do you reward the teachers who are breaking their backs everyday with students from disadvantaged areas where turning up to school is an achievement, but typically many of these students are in the cohort of early school leavers poor grades etc.

Easy to reward the teachers who teach in schools which select only the best and brightest students, who are motivated and have supportive parents in the background. Some of these schools also do not want to take students with problems: behavioural, intellectual, physical etc, etc.

Do the honours maths teachers get a bonus because their students secured high grades, which is not out of the ordinary as you tend to have high achievers taking the subject, but the foundation maths teacher get nothing for the class where there is a proportionally higher number of underachievers in the group?




As for this, you are just trolling.

I think I expressed myself incorrectly. We hear a lot about some teachers that are under-qualified

billybartley

I also have a hard time buying into the 'weak' student argument. Surely a good teacher can transform a weak student into an average student. Maybe extra classes could be offered during the summer vacation?

rainbowtrout

billybartley wrote: »

I also have a hard time buying into the 'weak' student argument. Surely a good teacher can transform a weak student into an average student. Maybe extra classes could be offered during the summer vacation?

You clearly aren't a teacher because otherwise you would be aware that there are many students out there with severe learning difficulties. They will never be average. Learning difficulties aside there are weak students out there, who will always struggle with academic subjects, they will never progress to third level education and will struggle with tasks in employment beyond general unskilled work.

whiteandlight

Have you ever worked with a student who was weak? You can't say that you will amend the test to take into account ability while a post later say that a weak student should be able to be an average student?

Those twelve students were weak in all tests they have done including cognitive testing and drumcondra ability testing. They were also one of the most fun classes I ever taught and I put my heart and soul into working with them. There is no average testing I know of that would have reflected the level of work I put into this group.


Can you imagine tying the pay of electricians to how the house owner operates the equipment installed? Would you consider that to be fair? We can give students everything we have but it is their performance ultimately and not mine

billybartley

rainbowtrout wrote: »

You clearly aren't a teacher because otherwise you would be aware that there are many students out there with severe learning difficulties. They will never be average. Learning difficulties aside there are weak students out there, who will always struggle with academic subjects, they will never progress to third level education and will struggle with tasks in employment beyond general unskilled work.

Ok. Let me give you a scenario. You have two classrooms - A and B, in the same school, with two different subjects but same students let's say biology and chemistry. Both have the same teachers with roughly equivalent experience, training, etc. Class A (let's say chemistry) consistently attains an average grade of 89 percent [range 85-92] each year. Class B (biology) has an average of 56 (range 42-60). Why do students consistently achieve higher chemistry scores?

billybartley

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Have you ever worked with a student who was weak? You can't say that you will amend the test to take into account ability while a post later say that a weak student should be able to be an average student?

Those twelve students were weak in all tests they have done including cognitive testing and drumcondra ability testing. They were also one of the most fun classes I ever taught and I put my heart and soul into working with them. There is no average testing I know of that would have reflected the level of work I put into this group.


Can you imagine tying the pay of electricians to how the house owner operates the equipment installed? Would you consider that to be fair? We can give students everything we have but it is their performance ultimately and not mine

But if we have a measure of g(general cognitive ability), we can predict how they would do in the test. We can then calculate the difference between how should have done (given cognitive ability) and how they did (actual performance). That difference is a measure of teaching effectiveness. Let's use your class as an example - we might predict that the students based on ability(g) would score a 42. If they score a 52 we can attribute that, in part, to the excellent support they received from you.

whiteandlight

But the difference is not just in my teaching. The difference is in the human error element in the setting of the test, the health of the student on the day, their 'liking'for the subject, whether they are counting the subject for their leaving cert, whether they hate school, how their family life is, the value their parents set on education, their laziness...

The list goes on and on andd on. There is simply no test that can be done that eliminates all other factors except the teachers teaching ability.


And even on the example above other things that might affect those two classes:
Timetable: different times of the day=different concentration level
Classroom setting: one may be hotter/colder/have better facilities
Opinion: one of the subjects is probably viewed as easier/harder and students motivation will change as a result

billybartley

Musicmental85 wrote: »

But the difference is not just in my teaching. The difference is in the human error element in the setting of the test, the health of the student on the day, their 'liking'for the subject, whether they are counting the subject for their leaving cert, whether they hate school, how their family life is, the value their parents set on education, their laziness...

The list goes on and on andd on. There is simply no test that can be done that eliminates all other factors except the teachers teaching ability.


And even on the example above other things that might affect those two classes:
Timetable: different times of the day=different concentration level
Classroom setting: one may be hotter/colder/have better facilities
Opinion: one of the subjects is probably viewed as easier/harder and students motivation will change as a result

Come on, now. These sound like excuses to me, right? The student was too cold, therefore they all scored 10 points lower??? Come on???

whiteandlight

billybartley wrote: »

Come on, now. These sound like excuses to me, right? The student was too cold, therefore they all scored 10 points lower??? Come on???

Grand I'm done explaining it to you.

billybartley

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Grand I'm done explaining it to you.

Ok

implausible

This idea only makes sense in a scenario where the only factor that affects students' outcomes is the teacher.

Common sense and reams of research tell us otherwise.

billybartley

implausible wrote: »

This idea only makes sense in a scenario where the only factor that affects students' outcomes is the teacher.

Common sense and reams of research tell us otherwise.

My whole point is that you can measure and control for those factors. can you not? You can even control for the temperature of the classroom, and for the mood of students, if you like?

implausible

billybartley wrote: »

My whole point is that you can measure and control for those factors. can you not? You can even control for the temperature of the classroom, and for the mood of students, if you like?

No. The biggest factors in educational attainment are reading for pleasure and parental involvement. Can you measure the fact that little Johnny doesn't have a space to do homework, that Mary's parents are on the piss and don't know or care if she goes to school, that Paddy has a part-time job in a garage or that nobody in Ann's family ever finished second level and there isn't a book in the house, that Mickey is a traveller and will be getting married next week or that Orla's mam and dad are third level educated, attend every parent-teacher meeting and make sure she does 3 hours study every night in a warm quiet environment?

The reason I am a teacher and the girl I sat beside in Geography never did the Junior Cert has got nothing very little to do with the quality of teaching we both received.

billybartley

implausible wrote: »

No. The biggest factors in educational attainment are reading for pleasure and parental involvement. Can you measure the fact that little Johnny doesn't have a space to do homework, that Mary's parents are on the piss and don't know or care if she goes to school, that Paddy has a part-time job in a garage or that nobody in Ann's family ever finished second level and there isn't a book in the house, that Mickey is a traveller and will be getting married next week or that Orla's mam and dad are third level educated, attend every parent-teacher meeting and make sure she does 3 hours study every night in a warm quiet environment?

The reason I am a teacher and the girl I sat beside in Geography never did the Junior Cert has got nothing very little to do with the quality of teaching we both received.

Ok, then, by the reasoning I have heard so far, teachers have no impact? Right? It is all down to parents, economic and social conditions, ability, conditional factors. Am I right?

amacca

billybartley wrote: »

Come on, now. These sound like excuses to me, right? The student was too cold, therefore they all scored 10 points lower??? Come on???

They sound like factors that could affect outcomes to me (along with the other ones in that posters previous post) - any fair scientific study will isolate all factors except what it is designed to test in order to be able to give a definitive relationship between the factor being studied and the the outcome

If you want to tie salaries to student outcomes then you would have to isolate/correct for all factors except the teachers performance in order to do that...And how do you decide what the most effective performance is....simply on the basis of the grade they get? (not taking into account how they get it - by borderline bullying certain students into studying? - or not taking into account how they affect the students psychology etc)

Anyway, good luck doing that in the real world right now.......btw its been done before in Ireland and it was a disaster.....I doubt we have reached the point where a more sophisticated version of it wouldn't be any less a disaster

And not to derail but I honestly think other ways of improving educational outcomes in this country that are not even on the agenda should be discussed as well such as coming up with strategies for dealing with disrespect/persistent misbehaviour and irresponsible parenting etc that don't increase the burden on teachers and allow them to you know work at teaching/do their job unhindered etc rather than increasingly cajole/beg certain cohorts of students to actually do some work rather than disrupting others that want to learn.

billybartley

amacca wrote: »

They sound like factors that could affect outcomes to me (along with the other ones in that posters previous post) - any fair scientific study will isolate all factors except what it is designed to test in order to be able to give a definitive relationship between the factor being studied and the the outcome

If you want to tie salaries to student outcomes then you would have to isolate/correct for all factors except the teachers performance in order to do that

Anyway, good luck doing that in the real world right now.......btw its been done before in Ireland and it was a disaster.....I doubt we have reached the point where a more sophisticated version of it wouldn't be any less a disaster

And not to derail but I honestly think other ways of improving educational outcomes in this country that are not even on the agenda should be discussed as well such as coming up with strategies for dealing with disrespect/persistent misbehaviour and irresponsible parenting etc that don't increase the burden on teachers and allow them to you know work at teaching/do their job unhindered etc rather than increasingly cajole/beg students to actually do some work.

So how to you hold teacher's accountable for outcomes?

implausible

billybartley wrote: »

Ok, then, by the reasoning I have heard so far, teachers have no impact? Right? It is all down to parents, economic and social conditions, ability, conditional factors. Am I right?

No. Teachers are one important factor in a complex equation. Isolating the teaching and measuring it, is from where I'm standing, impossible.

amacca

billybartley wrote: »

So how to you hold teacher's accountable for outcomes?

Theres the million dollar question

You could inspect them every so often like we do now......but that imo is ridiculous as performances may "go up or down" on the inspection date etc etc


The only fair way that I can see is define what is an acceptable/realistic standard for one human trying to instruct 25+ students with various different levels of intelligence/SENs and emotional and behavioural problems...Ie: how it should be taught by international best practice and is feasible without for a reasonably hardworking professional to do without devoting hours to disciplinary problems/extra curricular/general bullsh1t and suffering from burnout from workload.

And in a similar way define what is acceptable behaviour from the students.

Then stick a camera in there to record both teacher and students and then when there is a complaint from either party review the tapes and take corrective action if the complaint is upheld according to the standards agreed upon.

If the teacher is under performing ..... then corrective action that actually puts the pressure on the teacher to improve

If the student is under performing ..... then corrective action that actually puts the pressure on the student to improve


Thats if you want to be fair imo... I believe that would make most teachers jobs much much easier and would highlight where a lot of the lack of performance in the system really is....of course its highly unlikely but its the only fair way as far as I'm concerned.

doc_17

OP - sure why don't you go off and read all the research on this and report back what you have learned? I know the "long summer months" are at an end but surely the long winter nights ahead could provide you with an opportunity to do this

boogle

I notice a few new regs "contributing" to this forum lately. I suppose it's that time of year.

byhookorbycrook

billybartley wrote: »

Hello all:

One thing I have been thinking about lately is what effects incentives might have in the secondary and primary school systems. We hear a lot about how teachers are under-qualified or just plain bad.

How about an incentive system based on test scores? and tying teacher salary to test scores? We should introduced standardized testing in primary schools, and base salary increases, decreases, and even employment status based on test scores.
Any thoughts?

Errrrrrrrrrrrr........................how out of touch are you, standardised tests ARE done in primary. So you advocate reverting to payment by results???Riigggggggggggggggggggggggghtttttttttt to hell with the children with dyslexia/dyspraxia/MGLD ??So you want schools to cherry pick who gets in?Do you have ANY idea what education is??

Miss Lockhart

Payment by results. Yes, the Gradgrind philosophy is surely what our students need. Hard Times indeed.

noodler

The media have us believe some of our maths teachers are underqualfiied (or not qualified at all).

This badly needs to be sorted where and if it exists.

Powerhouse

billybartley wrote: »

Hello all:

One thing I have been thinking about lately is what effects incentives might have in the secondary and primary school systems. We hear a lot about how teachers are under-qualified or just plain bad.

How about an incentive system based on test scores? and tying teacher salary to test scores? We should introduced standardized testing in primary schools, and base salary increases, decreases, and even employment status based on test scores. We could do the same with JC and LC results.

If a teacher is constantly above the national average, regional average, etc. they get a pay increase? And the reverse. We could use the test scores to design interventions to improve teaching, perhaps during the long summer months teachers have free. And teachers who do not improve are fired.

Any thoughts?

Only problem with the constant reference to 'test' scores' as you put it is that it's the students who do the tests, while you are talking about incentivising teachers. It's a bit like trying to ensure that a player does better with a penalty-kick by giving his manager a bonus if he scores. Far more effective if the player himself has a specific incentivised interest in the outcome.

If you tie teacher salaries to test scores then you are potentially incentivising teachers to spoon-feed the tests to the students (some of whom will never ordinarily pull their weight to the satisfaction of a results-obsessed teacher, and others of whom simply will not have the cognitive ability and would have to be prompted to get to the required level) resulting in no net gain for the students educationally in real terms despite an inevitable whoop-la in the media about improved performance and the increased salaries for the 'excellent' teachers involved. Is a system which incentivises the very people who set and mark tests really that clever? It is also a system which would on balance inevitably increase the amount being paid to teachers as 'performance' would improve.

If you want to better student performance with incentives why not incentivise the students directly? Make the children's allowance dependent on 'test scores' and behaviour/attendance. Link educational attainment/effort to potential future dole payments. Attach a list of behavioural transgressions in school to Leaving Cert/Junior Cert results so that a prospective employer knows what they are getting. Parents might even take it seriously then. And it would be interesting to hear the take of someone whose kid has chronic attendance/behavioural issues explain to the authorities why he does not reach this notional 'national average' (WTF the significance of that is other than ease of calculation beats me). That's an exchange which would raise serious pay-per-view revenue across teachers' homes. Usually such people are protected by the tardiness and toothlessness of the system that deals with them. Not bad thing to call them to account for once, as opposed to have them telling everyone else about their 'rights'.

There is a certain incorruptibility about the current bland unnuanced pay structure for teachers which can be resented, despised, envied but the significance of which cannot be underestimated. Yes, it can always be argued that it creates a ceiling on the financial aspirations of those who are very good performers but we have seen enough examples of people who were incentivised to the hilt in recent years in this country to disastrous effect to know that only the incorrigibly naive think such an approach serves the greater good. The lives of many vulnerable young people is no place for the 'invisible hand of the market' and let us hope such ignorance never informs the classroom.

doc_17

Well said Powerhouse. Short term thinking is what it would amount to, especially at primary level. Like the financial crash you would realise that the damage was done years earlier when they should have been learning in a caring, encouraging and supportive environment. Not like a rat race

Fear_an_tarbh

@billybartley
1. I presume you're trolling.
2. If you're not, and such an horrific system hypothetically came into place, and you managed to reproduce and had a kid with dyslexia, dyspraxia, asperger's, mgld, or just wasn't a fantastic learner, good luck finding a good school that will be keen to take them (the good schools will be oversubscribed and thus able to pick and choose).
3. When they do get into a school, they will likely have an 'underperforming' teacher as the 'good' teachers will be earning more coin in a private/more prestigious school teaching the high achievers.
4. Who will want to work with the thousands of disadvantaged kids when you'll be financially penalised for teaching them?
5. We abandoned such segregation of children based on ability about 20 years ago, there are still lots of conservative myopic people in our society who would like to see a return to this.
6. @billybartley, you'd love societies such as China/North Korea/Russia, they embrace systems such as these!

2011abc

Anyone else more than a little suspicious that Billy Bartley may be the poster formerly known as Chocoteach !? Both new accounts used to promote odious dept policy ,closed within a day or two!? Come on Ruairi this is beneath even YOU!