Should I call it a day and head across the water

Lmcd545

Hi everyone,

I'm looking for advice!
I have just finished the PDE in Hibernia (post primary) my subjects are biology and science. Since June I have sent more than ninety job applications. There have been plenty of jobs advertised in my subject area when you compare to other subjects however I have just managed to get the one interview (didn't get the job as although my interview went well I hadn't enough experience)
Some of the people I went to college with are telling me to hold out here as many schools will continue to advertise up until the midterm as maternity leave cover pops up.
Thinking of going across to England to gain experience and then be in a better position for applying to schools next summer. I don't know how to go about getting subbing hours here for the school year and will irregular subbing really stand to me when my CV is being considered next year?
Also many schools advertise science subjects together with maths, on my teaching council registration it does not state maths but many teachers have told me that science teachers can teach to at least JC maths, I feel very comfortable with maths but without it on the TC letter can I still apply for a position with Maths or will they throw out the CV straight away?

Thank you in advance for advice

Moody_mona

The idea of being qualified up to Junior Cert doesn't exist anymore, you're either qualified to teach Maths or not, and it seems you're not. Schools may well be reluctant to hire you if you're unqualified, but what you could do is state in your cover letter that you're willing and eager (if that's true) to upskill, and UL offer a course to qualify Maths teachers but you must have hours to begin with.

brónaim cád??

There is a national shortage of science teachers in the SE of England. Just saying.

dory

Yea, I would say it's time to cut your losses and go. Better to be there for the start of term. You'll have a much better chance here with a few years experience abroad. There are just too many people who are applying for the same jobs with a few years experience. I finished the Dip this time last year and a good few who were doing Science are out looking for jobs again, or in some cases, still.

brónaim cád??

From personal experience I'd recommend Engage Education in Dublin. Obviously there are lots more agencies or you could go directly either. But I don't think there's any benefit doing days here and there at home. You've a week off every 6/7/8 weeks to head back home if you miss it.

Seanchai

Lmcd545 wrote: »

Hi everyone,

I'm looking for advice!
I have just finished the PDE in Hibernia (post primary) my subjects are biology and science. Since June I have sent more than ninety job applications. There have been plenty of jobs advertised in my subject area when you compare to other subjects however I have just managed to get the one interview (didn't get the job as although my interview went well I hadn't enough experience)
Some of the people I went to college with are telling me to hold out here as many schools will continue to advertise up until the midterm as maternity leave cover pops up.
Thinking of going across to England to gain experience and then be in a better position for applying to schools next summer. I don't know how to go about getting subbing hours here for the school year and will irregular subbing really stand to me when my CV is being considered next year?
Also many schools advertise science subjects together with maths, on my teaching council registration it does not state maths but many teachers have told me that science teachers can teach to at least JC maths, I feel very comfortable with maths but without it on the TC letter can I still apply for a position with Maths or will they throw out the CV straight away?

Thank you in advance for advice

I'd hold out in Ireland if you want to make your future here. Yes, you will stand a better chance of getting a job when you come home with experience abroad, but being available to a school/schools here now will stand to you should a vacancy arise here. If you knock on enough doors in the area you want to build your future, you will get in. It's hard to do the knocking from abroad. That would be the essence of my view.

I sent an army of cvs out also. I spent a fortune driving around and handing in each one to schools. I was unemployed for a couple of months (and did voluntary work). I kept applying for anything that moved. Finally I got a place teaching, initially on full hours, then I dropped to half hours and then back to full hours. I used the lull in hours to return to college to study another subject in order to get TC-registered in it. That took two years, but I wouldn't have been able to do that unless I had stayed in Ireland and specifically focused on getting a job in Dublin (as the course entailed attending uni in Dublin twice a week). With that extra subject I'm in a much better position career-wise.

I strongly agree with the suggestion that you get qualified in Maths. You may not need to stay in Ireland to do that, but wherever you go, it would be wise to add that notch to your belt. Other than that, you seem to have decent subjects and I'd be of the mind that because of those subjects you'll land on your feet here if you knock on enough doors.

PS: "irregular subbing" will stand to you. Just put the school down, and 'substitute teacher' over the period - e.g. 2013-2014 - you were there. The details of hours etc aren't required on a cv.

Lmcd545

Should I apply for resource teaching or work as an SNA?

teacherhead

I went to UK when I finished college couldn't geta job here at the time (2003).

Halfway through the year saw an ad for a job in Ireland, applied interviewed, got the job still, there.

I think I'd recommend going. It's a short journey home, I was working near stansted, Friday flight home back.on the 6am from Dublin on Monday every few weeks.

IT was a great experience and certainly stood to me. I am almost certain thst I wouldn't have landed the job I'm in if I had been sitting around at home.

ht9zni1gs28crp

England has a lot to offer in terms of experience, not just in Teaching.

marilynhappy

teacherhead wrote: »

I went to UK when I finished college couldn't geta job here at the time (2003).

Halfway through the year saw an ad for a job in Ireland, applied interviewed, got the job still, there.

I think I'd recommend going. It's a short journey home, I was working near stansted, Friday flight home back.on the 6am from Dublin on Monday every few weeks.

IT was a great experience and certainly stood to me. I am almost certain thst I wouldn't have landed the job I'm in if I had been sitting around at home.

Find all this very interesting as I'm trying to make similar decisions. Teacherhead- did you find it possible to come home for that interview you did? I am just a tad worried that if jobs came up, one couldn't get back to Ireland to interview -I presume you could, was it something you could get time off for, during the school term?

It's a toss up but I'm interested in what you're saying about not sitting around at home....hmmmm

Dave0301

marilynhappy wrote: »

Find all this very interesting as I'm trying to make similar decisions. Teacherhead- did you find it possible to come home for that interview you did? I am just a tad worried that if jobs came up, one couldn't get back to Ireland to interview -I presume you could, was it something you could get time off for, during the school term?

It's a toss up but I'm interested in what you're saying about not sitting around at home....hmmmm

Schools here in the UK will allow you time off to interview for other positions.

marilynhappy

Dave0301 wrote: »

Schools here in the UK will allow you time off to interview for other positions.

Wow, thanks Dave, really? I'm amazed. Very interesting indeed. That is one of the main things holding me back from going abroad -the worry that if a dream job in Ireland came up, I'd be disadvantaged in comparison to other candidates and unable to return for interview.

Would it cause a bit of a bad atmosphere, if schools knew you were trying to leave? Does it matter?

Interesting to know that other people are asking all the same questions as I am about staying or heading across the water....

Lmcd545

what are your subjects marilynhappy?

I would plan on coming come every few weekends, and i suppose the way to think of it is that the school year is very much broken into sections with midterms/ xmas etc.

how did those of you who are teaching in the UK sort out your accommodation?

marilynhappy

English and I've taught a bit of history (not TC registered in history). Yeah...I know what you're saying, coming home a good bit etc.
Now- in terms of accomodation, I would worry about the accomodation costs in London if I had not landed something well paid and secure (ie. I wonder if supply work is very precarious?) I'm thinking about other cities too now...

Originally I was not sure about an agency, now I'm a bit more open to them. I don' like the idea that sometimes they pay you (not the school) as it seems to me like you have less employment rights if it is an agency which is paying you. However- I suppose if they help to source good jobs for candidates, maybe this is not as big a deal as I think...

Lmcd545, glad you opened this topic as I am asking myself similar questions!

Dave0301

marilynhappy wrote: »

Wow, thanks Dave, really? I'm amazed. Very interesting indeed. That is one of the main things holding me back from going abroad -the worry that if a dream job in Ireland came up, I'd be disadvantaged in comparison to other candidates and unable to return for interview.

Would it cause a bit of a bad atmosphere, if schools knew you were trying to leave? Does it matter?

Interesting to know that other people are asking all the same questions as I am about staying or heading across the water....

Within reason obviously, if you are only in the school a month and interviewing else where it won't go down well. If did a year teaching and were looking to move on, it would not be too frowned upon, there is a high turnover of teachers here.

It is worth noting though that one terms notice is usually required. So if you wanted to leave it summer, you would have to give notice at Easter. However I don't know how strictly this is enforced.

If you were to get a job offer at home and took it on short notice, I don't think they would go out of their way to stop you.

Seanchai

Dave0301 wrote: »

there is a high turnover of teachers here.

Interesting. Why?

Dave0301

marilynhappy wrote: »

English and I've taught a bit of history (not TC registered in history). Yeah...I know what you're saying, coming home a good bit etc.
Now- in terms of accomodation, I would worry about the accomodation costs in London if I had not landed something well paid and secure (ie. I wonder if supply work is very precarious?) I'm thinking about other cities too now...

Originally I was not sure about an agency, now I'm a bit more open to them. I don' like the idea that sometimes they pay you (not the school) as it seems to me like you have less employment rights if it is an agency which is paying you. However- I suppose if they help to source good jobs for candidates, maybe this is not as big a deal as I think...

Lmcd545, glad you opened this topic as I am asking myself similar questions!

Going through an agency is a good way to get your foot in the door so to speak. They will either sort you out with supply teaching, or get you interviews for permanent positions. They will also assist with housing you initially.

Once here I would suggest that you use TES to find jobs yourself, as you will have experience of the English system and will have references. You can use TES before moving over, but you will be financing trips over out of your own budget most likely, whereas an agency will usually cover flights and accommodation.

Dave0301

Seanchai wrote: »

Interesting. Why?

A lot more scope for career progression, it is more difficult to move up the chain in the same school. A lot of burn out in the state sector as well I believe.

Seanchai

Dave0301 wrote: »

You can use TES before moving over, but you will be financing trips over out of your own budget most likely, whereas an agency will usually cover flights and accommodation.

Interesting, again. I've always wondered about getting a job there without an agency. I gather the agency gets a fee of £500 or so for finding a teacher? If you go on your own, however, do you get any increase in salary or enticement fee because the school is saving money by not paying the agency a fee? Is there any advantage in looking for a job without going through an agency?

Dave0301

Seanchai wrote: »

Interesting, again. I've always wondered about getting a job there without an agency. I gather the agency gets a fee of £500 or so for finding a teacher? If you go on your own, however, do you get any increase in salary or enticement fee because the school is saving money by not paying the agency a fee? Is there any advantage in looking for a job without going through an agency?

If you get a permanent job through an agency they will get a finders fee. If you are a supply teacher, they will get a % of your wage.

If you look for your own job; you will be allowed to pick and choose your own schools. As for the salary, I am not sure what you would be entitled to, if you are an NQT you would start on M1 on the pay scale. If you have experience, off the top of my head I don't know if this transfers.

If you interview for the Independent sector, you will be able to negotiate your own salary. The school will have its own pay scales, which may be similar to the state sector, or quite a bit more depending on the school.

Seanchai

Dave0301 wrote: »

A lot more scope for career progression, it is more difficult to move up the chain in the same school. A lot of burn out in the state sector as well I believe.

Is that because schools tend to recruit externally as a practice or because there is more cliquishness at the higher echelons of schools? If there is constant movement of staff, how does this impact upon a sense of community and camaraderie among the remaining staff? (in our school most people are there 15-40 years and it's very much like a family)

By state sector I assume you mean state-run schools? Why is there more burnout there than in fee-charging schools?

marilynhappy

Thank you Dave and Seanchai for posing and answering all these questions- very useful.
-I imagine some agencies are much better than others- from my limited experience of ringing them- there are some which, straight off, don't seem as reputable as others and they are not open about their methods and practices. (ie- Will not give information until you have given them all your information- bit dodgy methinks.)

-I would worry about the sense of community in English schools too, as that is one of my favourite things about the Irish system. There is nothing as nice as working with great colleagues and feeling that you belong. I personally feel that teachers tend to be nice people (in general) and a sociable helpful lot. Maybe this is universal, but if people are constantly moving on, in jobs, maybe you'd feel less loyalty to your colleagues.

Dave0301

Seanchai wrote: »

Is that because schools tend to recruit externally as a practice or because there is more cliquishness at the higher echelons of schools? If there is constant movement of staff, how does this impact upon a sense of community and camaraderie among the remaining staff? (in our school most people are there 15-40 years and it's very much like a family)

By state sector I assume you mean state-run schools? Why is there more burnout there than in fee-charging schools?

The jobs will be also advertised internally, but it is more to do with the fact that if a HoD or HoY has recently been promoted to the post, they will not be leaving anytime soon. To be fair, it is usually younger staff that will move on to progress. In our school, turnover is highest with younger staff 25 -35, where as more established teachers in post of responsibility are settled.

It can have on impact in the staff room alright, but again, there remains an established core group of teachers as well.

Independent schools, although a lot more emphasis is placed an extra curricular, the trade off is better facilities, improved student ability/behaviour and longer holidays, better pay. Class size of about 20 at GCSE and about 10 at A-Level.

The state sector has shorter holidays, may have more behaviour problems, larger class sizes, less holidays, and depending an the area and its rating, regular OFSTED inspections. Paper work in the state sector is more significant than Independent too.

It is important to note though, that would be worse case scenario, the vast majority of state schools here would be comparable to Irish secondary schools.

Seanchai

Dave0301 wrote: »

If you get a permanent job through an agency they will get a finders fee. If you are a supply teacher, they will get a % of your wage.

If you look for your own job; you will be allowed to pick and choose your own schools. As for the salary, I am not sure what you would be entitled to, if you are an NQT you would start on M1 on the pay scale. If you have experience, off the top of my head I don't know if this transfers.

So there doesn't seem to be any financial incentive to cut the agency out of it and look for your own job. I wonder do schools which are stuck for cash favour a non-agency person in interview because they could save paying that quite large "finder's fee". Interesting how agencies seem to have got a hold of the entire recruitment system over there.

Dave0301 wrote: »

If you interview for the Independent sector, you will be able to negotiate your own salary. The school will have its own pay scales, which may be similar to the state sector, or quite a bit more depending on the school.

Yeah, in the year I did my PDE I went for an interview with one of the top five fee-charging schools in England (actually 3 interviews in one day and they rang me up a week before and gave me a topic which I had to teach to a class of 10 or so students while being watched by two teachers) and they offered to start me at £26k, which was above the M1 by, I think, £5k (as a condition of employment I had to live on campus). It was easily the most amazing interview experience of my life (they paid for my flight, hotel etc, also). I declined as my starting salary in Ireland was €38,000 (providing I got a job, which was the risk I was taking). And how lucky I was because if I had gone to England and then returned after a couple of years I would have lost all my qualification allowances (level 10) which amount to @ €7000. Every single year for the rest of my teaching I would have lost that. Every morning getting up I'd be in pain with the thought of it. Timing is everything.

Dave0301

Seanchai wrote: »

....Interesting how agencies seem to have got a hold of the entire recruitment system over there.



Yeah, in the year I did my PDE I went for an interview with one of the top five fee-charging schools in England (actually 3 interviews in one day and they rang me up a week before and gave me a topic which I had to teach to a class of 10 or so students while being watched by two teachers) and they offered to start me at £26k, which was above the M1 by, I think, £5k (as a condition of employment I had to live on campus). It was easily the most amazing interview experience of my life (they paid for my flight, hotel etc, also). I declined as my starting salary in Ireland was €38,000 (providing I got a job, which was the risk I was taking). And how lucky I was because if I had gone to England and then returned after a couple of years I would have lost all my qualification allowances (level 10) which amount to @ €7000. Every single year for the rest of my teaching I would have lost that. Every morning getting up I'd be in pain with the thought of it. Timing is everything.

I know one agency that flew over ~ 30 Canadians, put them up for the three nights I think, and got them all interviews. Everything paid for. There must be money in it somehow!

No qualification bonus here alright. The top "Public Schools" as they are known here are in a totally different league to anything else. No recession in those student's households anyway :pac:

Lmcd545

Thanks for all the advice!

Has anyone had any experience in the north of england? I see teaching personnel have some positions in Manchester and Liverpool.
Would these differ greatly from south east england

Afroshack

Seanchai wrote: »

Interesting, again. I've always wondered about getting a job there without an agency. I gather the agency gets a fee of £500 or so for finding a teacher? If you go on your own, however, do you get any increase in salary or enticement fee because the school is saving money by not paying the agency a fee? Is there any advantage in looking for a job without going through an agency?

I got a job in the UK with Uteach, and they cover flights and hotels up to about 180 pounds, which is really handy. They don't take a cent out of your money either, the schools pay them to source potential employees in Ireland and arrange interviews in the UK. I found them really helpful (if not a little overly persistant) and they will help you set up in the UK too.

Powerhouse

Lmcd545 wrote: »

Thinking of going across to England to gain experience and then be in a better position for applying to schools next summer.

A friend of mine taught in England for years and loved his time there. I would have no hesitation in going if I were starting out knowing what I know from experience. Even to get a 'job' in Ireland might mean just a few hours for a year before the whole treadmill starts again. And the 'experience' think will always be an excuse to not employ you. But imagine coming back in 4/5 years time with a CV holding all that experience and most likely having had a great time socially. And it's only a short flight from home anyway.

Lmcd545

Thanks for all the encouragement!

I don't really want to go but I'm hoping that 1 year will be sufficient to gain experience which will at least get me some interviews next summer

teacherhead

marilynhappy wrote: »

Find all this very interesting as I'm trying to make similar decisions. Teacherhead- did you find it possible to come home for that interview you did? I am just a tad worried that if jobs came up, one couldn't get back to Ireland to interview -I presume you could, was it something you could get time off for, during the school term?

It's a toss up but I'm interested in what you're saying about not sitting around at home....hmmmm

It ended up being during a mid term but there is a mobility culture in UK schools that doesn't exist here. They are generally very accommodating.

marilynhappy

Okay thanks for all this, everyone who has posted. Actually being more proactive and planning for the UK now- chatted to agency today. Have started thinking about specific areas....

thefasteriwalk

marilynhappy wrote: »

Okay thanks for all this, everyone who has posted. Actually being more proactive and planning for the UK now- chatted to agency today. Have started thinking about specific areas....

Are there still full time jobs? Or are you planning to do supply for a while? I'm in much the same boat myself, but I haven't been as pro-active as you.

Dave0301

thefasteriwalk wrote: »

Are there still full time jobs? Or are you planning to do supply for a while? I'm in much the same boat myself, but I haven't been as pro-active as you.

Have a look here.

At the minute the number of job adverts is low, believe it or not, but term time is when most are advertised. This is due to having to work a terms notice. So in September - November a lot of jobs for a January start will be advertised. Before the end of the summer term there was over 4000 jobs on offer!

Lmcd545

marilynhappy what agency did you talk to? are there many vacancies?

marilynhappy

Hey Guys there are still vacancies. I talked to Hourglass Education yesterday. I just know I don't want to be in London probs as I am not sure it would suit me. I doubt they are the only agency with jobs. There is also a crowd called Noredco who sound very good as they are recruiters (not an agency) so you get employed direct by the school. They are Northern Irish and work in recruitment I think. I gather if I go with an agency either the school may offer a permanent position (paid by them) straight off or it might be the case that you are paid by the agency on a long term supply basis (in one school) for a few months but the aim is- the school may buy your contract a while down the line. I checked educationcareers.ie.

ps. Yesterday was my first day being proactive : )

Lmcd545

I registered with engage education last night and had an interview with them today, it was more like a chat and it was very informative, they will now build a profile for me and schools can then view that and request to interview ya
Feeling alot more positive about it now

Dave0301

Lmcd545 wrote: »

I registered with engage education last night and had an interview with them today, it was more like a chat and it was very informative, they will now build a profile for me and schools can then view that and request to interview ya
Feeling alot more positive about it now

I went with Engage Education, found them really good. Any questions, ask away!

Heydeldel

Will prob give Engage a call tomorrow. Hope I haven't left it too late to get somewhere decent. My head feels so all over the place. A couple of months ago I was adamant I didn't want to move, now It's looking like I'll have to. I feel like I'm on a roller-coaster trying to decide!

brónaim cád??

I found Engage very helpful. I've a spare bedroom in my house in SE London if you want London.

Heydeldel

Deadly. Yeah, I tried working in Kent before and just felt a bit isolated and bored at weekends. I think that's what turned me off the first time around. I have friends living in London so it would be nice to be near familiar faces.


How do you find working in London? Like it?

brónaim cád??

I'm only here a few days. I want to get stuck into work so I can get to know people, the rest of the people in the house just keep to themselves. But I like London and how you can get everywhere without having a car.

Heydeldel

Yeah, I found it hard to mix with the people I lived with in Kent. That's a great thing about London though, lots of distractions. Once you start teaching at least you'll be busy, and tired!

marilynhappy

Update: I've noticed TES.co.uk is getting slightly more busy with jobs (it was very quiet for a while)....that's also an option for people.
As far as I can see the agencies still have work too though and I know there is the advantage of getting flights paid for with many agencies...

Decisions decision decisions!

brónaim cád??

What makes you want to stay in Ireland and what makes you want to move?

Heydeldel

For me I want to stay cos I have a long -term boyfriend, living together etc for the past couple of years. I will miss him loads. I did the last time I left. Plus I have a good life here apart from the work situation, I'm into sports and have great friends etc.

I want to leave Ireland cos I'll just get too depressed with another year of bitty work. I'm so sick of everyone asking me if I have work/ am working etc!! I feel stunted with the lack of opportunities here.


Maybe it's time to have a little adventure!

brónaim cád??

I'm single so that wasn't an issue, I'd probable be the same. But I guess it's close enough for you to go back and him to go over.


Maybe get a teacher friend to come too? I'll definitely stay the. Year for my Nqt but we see closer to the end of the year how well I fit into London life. I'd rather move to Galway or Dublin soi guess its here for now.

Heydeldel

I have an appointment with Engage in Dublin on Thursday so I'll see what they say to me then.

Have you started in a school yet?

brónaim cád??

They do a GPS supply scheme too. No not until third I'm going in tomorrow to set up the class though.

Pm me if you want my email