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Do I need a Cert to farm?

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  • 20-08-2013 4:56pm
    #1
    gdawg87
    Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭


    I have some experience with farming. Mostly abroad. My family has land but at the moment it's leased out. In a few years I can have the land if I want. I would like to do some hobby farming. A few chickens, pigs and some cattle. I would like some dairy cattle, mostly for self sufficiency. I know myself and my family won't drink all the milk and would like to maybe have a farm shop or take some things to a country market. Very small scale. I don't want to it for profit, just because I enjoy this kind of work. It would be part time and a hobby. Do I need some sort of ag course to do this?
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    #2
    yellow50HX
    Registered Users Posts: 1,828 ✭✭✭yellow50HX


    gdawg87 wrote: »
    I have some experience with farming. Mostly abroad. My family has land but at the moment it's leased out. In a few years I can have the land if I want. I would like to do some hobby farming. A few chickens, pigs and some cattle. I would like some dairy cattle, mostly for self sufficiency. I know myself and my family won't drink all the milk and would like to maybe have a farm shop or take some things to a country market. Very small scale. I don't want to it for profit, just because I enjoy this kind of work. It would be part time and a hobby. Do I need some sort of ag course to do this?

    It depends what you want. To be able declare yourself as a farmer and apply for grants and stuff then yes you need to do a course.


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    #3
    gdawg87
    Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭gdawg87


    yellow50HX wrote: »
    It depends what you want. To be able declare yourself as a farmer and apply for grants and stuff then yes you need to do a course.

    if it's fairly small scale farming and mostly just for myself, would I even get much of a grant?


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    #4
    gdawg87
    Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭gdawg87


    also how long and what is the course


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    #5
    arctictree
    Registered Users Posts: 4,284 ✭✭✭arctictree


    yellow50HX wrote: »
    It depends what you want. To be able declare yourself as a farmer and apply for grants and stuff then yes you need to do a course.

    You sure about this? I started farming last year and never had to do a course.


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    #6
    reilig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭reilig


    yellow50HX wrote: »
    It depends what you want. To be able declare yourself as a farmer and apply for grants and stuff then yes you need to do a course.

    I wouldn't agree with this. Plenty of people out there farming that never did any courses, both recent entrants and long time farmers.

    Course might be beneficial to a new entrant who could get a 25% top up in SFP in coming years if under 40 and qualified but the cost of doing the course might outweigh the extra SFP benefits.


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    #7
    yellow50HX
    Registered Users Posts: 1,828 ✭✭✭yellow50HX


    reilig wrote: »
    I wouldn't agree with this. Plenty of people out there farming that never did any courses, both recent entrants and long time farmers.

    Course might be beneficial to a new entrant who could get a 25% top up in SFP in coming years if under 40 and qualified but the cost of doing the course might outweigh the extra SFP benefits.

    my understanding of it all was that to be able to declare for tax and other things as a farmer you need to have do a green cert or 180hr course or similar. now its about 10 years since i did the 180 so maybe things have changed. just cos you can wire a plug dosent make you an electrican. from what i was under the impression there is a destinstion between a "farmer" and "land owner". just cos you owned the land didnt mean you were a farmer and not every farmer owned land (i dont).

    i remember when i was starting off i had to spend in copies of college certs and 180hr course. i was leasing a farm from a fella in the early retirment scheme and taking over his herd number. in order to apply for the FWS grant and installation aid and for my tax on the farm income i had to do all that.


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    #8
    arctictree
    Registered Users Posts: 4,284 ✭✭✭arctictree


    yellow50HX wrote: »
    my understanding of it all was that to be able to declare for tax and other things as a farmer you need to have do a green cert or 180hr course or similar.

    I dont see what you mean by 'declare for tax' ?

    If you have income, you need to pay tax on it. Nobody is going to prevent you from doing this. You just send in your tax return at the end of the year.


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    #9
    reilig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭reilig


    Definitely don't need certs for tax reasons. As I said in the post above the only benefit to having it is extra grants for certain people.

    But you don't need a cert to have a herd number!
    yellow50HX wrote: »
    my understanding of it all was that to be able to declare for tax and other things as a farmer you need to have do a green cert or 180hr course or similar. now its about 10 years since i did the 180 so maybe things have changed. just cos you can wire a plug dosent make you an electrican. from what i was under the impression there is a destinstion between a "farmer" and "land owner". just cos you owned the land didnt mean you were a farmer and not every farmer owned land (i dont).

    i remember when i was starting off i had to spend in copies of college certs and 180hr course. i was leasing a farm from a fella in the early retirment scheme and taking over his herd number. in order to apply for the FWS grant and installation aid and for my tax on the farm income i had to do all that.


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    #10
    yellow50HX
    Registered Users Posts: 1,828 ✭✭✭yellow50HX


    reilig wrote: »
    Definitely don't need certs for tax reasons. As I said in the post above the only benefit to having it is extra grants for certain people.

    But you don't need a cert to have a herd number!

    for my tax returns i declare income from farming and i can avail of tax credit for some of my expenses like for commerical tax onteh van. the 1st year i declared tax for farming the revenue wrote to me to forward them proof of my farming qualifiactions, now perhaps that was for giving me tax clearance for the hand over of stock i dont know, i didnt apply for any grants until my second tax year as a farmer. also a ceratin percentage of your income needs to be a certain level to be considered a farmer. just cos a lad has a pair of welly's, a few hens and pig in the garden does that mean he is a farmer?

    maybe things have changed but i was always under the impression that for the last numbr of years an one getting ito farming was required to do some kind of ag course, and that if you wanted to draw anything like SFP, REPS, DAS FWS, bord bia standard etc, or anything thing like that you needed to have a cert of some sort.


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    #11
    1chippy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,716 ✭✭✭1chippy


    certs are not needed to draw down payments such as sfp, reps, etc. I was going to do the online course due to this fear but i ended up i didnt. The only difference being that the various grants and subs were previously in my parents name, being transfered rather than applying for such from scratch.


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    #12
    yellow50HX
    Registered Users Posts: 1,828 ✭✭✭yellow50HX


    if farming doesnt need qualifications then what is the point of the green cert, 180 course, ag science courses etc etc etc?

    am i missing something or was i just taken for ride?


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    #13
    reilig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭reilig


    yellow50HX wrote: »
    for my tax returns i declare income from farming and i can avail of tax credit for some of my expenses like for commerical tax onteh van. the 1st year i declared tax for farming the revenue wrote to me to forward them proof of my farming qualifiactions, now perhaps that was for giving me tax clearance for the hand over of stock i dont know, i didnt apply for any grants until my second tax year as a farmer. also a ceratin percentage of your income needs to be a certain level to be considered a farmer. just cos a lad has a pair of welly's, a few hens and pig in the garden does that mean he is a farmer?

    maybe things have changed but i was always under the impression that for the last numbr of years an one getting ito farming was required to do some kind of ag course, and that if you wanted to draw anything like SFP, REPS, DAS FWS, bord bia standard etc, or anything thing like that you needed to have a cert of some sort.

    Absolutely no course required.

    For your tax returns, you don't send them a copy of the cert or a number off it.

    There are loads of people with no income and people who are making a loss at farming who are still considered a farmer by the government!


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    #14
    reilig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭reilig


    yellow50HX wrote: »
    if farming doesnt need qualifications then what is the point of the green cert, 180 course, ag science courses etc etc etc?

    am i missing something or was i just taken for ride?

    Did you get any top up in grants over a non qualified farmer under FWMS?

    Did you get installation aid?

    Did you avail of tax exemptions for farm transfer?

    Did you avail of any stamp duty exemptions when buying land?

    Did you learn anything about Farming by doing the 180 hour course?

    If you answer no to some or all of these questions, then it is highly probable that you were taken for a ride along with many other people across the country!


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    #15
    yellow50HX
    Registered Users Posts: 1,828 ✭✭✭yellow50HX


    reilig wrote: »
    Did you get any top up in grants over a non qualified farmer under FWMS? not that i'm aware of

    Did you get installation aid? Yes

    Did you avail of tax exemptions for farm transfer? No

    Did you avail of any stamp duty exemptions when buying land? No

    Did you learn anything about Farming by doing the 180 hour course? Nothing new but the farm walks were intresting and i picked up some good ideas and tips from the places we went to. and there was a good bit craic too

    If you answer no to some or all of these questions, then it is highly probable that you were taken for a ride along with many other people across the country!

    was no and still not in a position to buy land, used my money to lease land and build up my stock


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    #16
    reilig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭reilig


    yellow50HX wrote: »
    was no and still not in a position to buy land, used my money to lease land and build up my stock

    You got installation aid.

    That was as good of reason as any to do the course.


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    #17
    yellow50HX
    Registered Users Posts: 1,828 ✭✭✭yellow50HX


    reilig wrote: »
    You got installation aid.

    That was as good of reason as any to do the course.

    yeah it was well appricated money and made a big help startign out but that shouldnt be the point.

    for every othe profession be it a doctor or a hairdresser you need to be able to prove it. an amesity was brought in a number of years ago for lads that were obisously farming all their life but if any joe soap can get a herd number and and SFP payment then there should be a way to prove they are actually farming or have some kind of regulated skill set. it doent need to be an exam but there shoul dbe soemthing. you cant even be a labourer on a building site with out a safe pass


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    #18
    reilig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭reilig


    yellow50HX wrote: »

    for every othe profession be it a doctor or a hairdresser you need to be able to prove it. an amesity was brought in a number of years ago for lads that were obisously farming all their life but if any joe soap can get a herd number and and SFP payment then there should be a way to prove they are actually farming or have some kind of regulated skill set. it doent need to be an exam but there shoul dbe soemthing. you cant even be a labourer on a building site with out a safe pass

    I suppose that's what cross compliance is about. It's supposed to regulate how people farm, keep records, keep stock and maintain the environment etc.


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    #19
    grazeaway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭grazeaway


    reilig wrote: »
    I suppose that's what cross compliance is about. It's supposed to regulate how people farm, keep records, keep stock and maintain the environment etc.

    anyway getting back the the orginal question.

    its that that no you dont need to have any certs to start farming but it may come against you tax wise when your looking to transfer/buy farm land.


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    #20
    Mulumpy
    Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭Mulumpy


    grazeaway wrote: »
    anyway getting back the the orginal question.

    its that that no you dont need to have any certs to start farming but it may come against you tax wise when your looking to transfer/buy farm land.

    Its defo needed on land transfers for stamp duty and agricultural relief.


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    #21
    1chippy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,716 ✭✭✭1chippy


    Mulumpy wrote: »
    Its defo needed on land transfers for stamp duty and agricultural relief.
    Can you give me a breakdown on that. ie. savings and costs, etc. i keep hearing this but realistically you have to spend over 2 k and 180 hourss to save how much? It may be different transfering from non relatives and such but if its your parents it usualy just doesnt add up.


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    #22
    Mulumpy
    Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭Mulumpy


    1chippy wrote: »
    Can you give me a breakdown on that. ie. savings and costs, etc. i keep hearing this but realistically you have to spend over 2 k and 180 hourss to save how much? It may be different transfering from non relatives and such but if its your parents it usualy just doesnt add up.

    Stamp duty was 2% on valve of land being transferred I think it might be 1% now. I would have had to pay over 13k. Best give your accountant a call things change so much from year to year


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    #23
    nashmach
    Registered Users Posts: 1,183 ✭✭✭nashmach


    1chippy wrote: »
    Can you give me a breakdown on that. ie. savings and costs, etc. i keep hearing this but realistically you have to spend over 2 k and 180 hourss to save how much? It may be different transfering from non relatives and such but if its your parents it usualy just doesnt add up.

    Don't fall into the trap that it is just 180 hours!


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