Are suicides Increasing?

RachaelVO

Not the usual AH fare so sorry for bringing ya down...

Just doing my usual morning ritual of cuppa tea and her.ie and I seen this

http://her.ie/story/we-are-beyond-heartbroken-former-disney-star-found-dead-aged-29-665660

A young american actor who has taking his own life. Now I'll be honest I've never heard of him, but he was 29. I feel heartbroken for his poor family.

Then the case of the girl who was bullied on ask.fm, and the high profile cases that are as a result of bullying, money problems etc;

All I can ask is that if you are in such a low place, talk to someone, your doctor, helplines. Some links I know of are

http://www.suicideorsurvive.ie/
http://www.samaritans.org/your-community/samaritans-work-ireland/samaritans-branches-ireland
https://www.childline.ie/

I'm sure there are tonnes more, so please don't leave your family bereft without you, despite what you think they will NOT be better off without you. You will leave a hole in their hearts and lives that nothing will ever mend.

Shiraz 4.99

The reporting of suicide definitely is, I'm not sure about the actual act.
Years ago it was the Irish way to cover up for family if someoner took their life.
Thankfully now the debate is more open.

banie01

I posted the below a couple of years ago on a thread discussing ''accidental deaths''
Since I posted it, I have lost another 13 friends and acquaintances to suicide!
As I type this reply I am getting ready to leave my house to attend the funeral of yet another friend lost to suicide.
Of these additional 13 deaths,(not counting the most recent as an inquest won't be held for quite a while yet) not 1 of them has been officially recorded as ''suicide''!
The burden of proof required for a Coroner to rule a death as a suicide is very very high!
So the vast majority are ruled as misadventure or open verdicts.
Compare that to the HSE figures for self harm?
If we don't admit the extent of the problem, how can we ever effectively address the issue?
Our government persist in the lie that our suicide rate is @500 deaths per year!
It really is an order of magnitude higher!
It is an all too silent epidemic that too many of our politicians and policy makers are happy to ignore.

banie01 wrote: »

The way suicide numbers are corrolated in Ireland also does our mental services a great disservice!
The last time I saw numbers released I think the numbers were at @500 suicides per year.
Now while I know my following statement is anectodal and in no way scientific, consider this.
Since 2002 I know of at least 30 people all under the age of 30 whom I would consider friends, acquaintances or colleagues that have taken their own lives.
Of this number 4 were recorded as suicides!

Now if this is the kind of data that our Government agencies plan their suicide prevention strategies and budget allocations around surely it is seriously flawed!

I live in Limerick City and those are just the deaths of people known to me that hand on heart I can attest to, factor in the deaths of people not known to me but about whom you'd here some rumour and gossip and even disregarding half of that total it still amounts to a huge number!
A trip to a cemetery in Limerick will reinforce this notion, not just about suicide but accidental deaths too!
The amount of young dead is truly frightening and little or no action seems to be taken around the 'preventable' deaths.
My own wife died at 26 from Illness but it is frightening to see the numbers of young people's headstones dotted around her grave and those numbers growing every week.

The stigma surrounding how these deaths are recorded needs to be addressed as without proper statistics any strategy to address the issues surrounding the causes(Be it suicide or accident) and prevention is practically worthless no matter how well intentioned.

RachaelVO

banie01 wrote: »

I posted the below a couple of years ago on a thread discussing ''accidental deaths''
Since I posted it, I have lost another 13 friends and acquaintances to suicide!
As I type this reply I am getting ready to leave my house to attend the funeral of yet another friend lost to suicide.
Of these additional 13 deaths,(not counting the most recent as an inquest won't be held for quite a while yet) not 1 of them has been officially recorded as ''suicide''!
The burden of proof required for a Coroner to rule a death as a suicide is very very high!
So the vast majority are ruled as misadventure or open verdicts.
Compare that to the HSE figures for self harm?
If we don't admit the extent of the problem, how can we ever effectively address the issue?
Our government persist in the lie that our suicide rate is @500 deaths per year!
It really is an order of magnitude higher!
It is an all too silent epidemic that too many of our politicians and policy makers are happy to ignore.

Jesus, that's awful. I have no words to express how awful your experience is. As I was reading I just took a massive intake of breath it's so shocking.

mathie

I noticed this the other day ...

Surge in farmer suicides linked to fodder crisis
Seven deaths in west Clare as 'intolerable pressure' of last winter hits community hard
jerome reilly – 18 August 2013
THE fodder crisis that followed the wettest winter in decades reaped a bitter harvest among farmers, with a significant rise in suicides across the country.
These include a cluster of an estimated seven deaths in the last number of months in west Clare, which was among the worst affected regions during the emergency. And suicides are still occurring among the farming community, according to Irish Farmers' Association (IFA) sources.

They reveal that some farmers who found themselves under intolerable pressure last winter and spring have found it impossible to emerge from the depression that engulfed them during the crisis.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/surge-in-farmer-suicides-linked-to-fodder-crisis-29507495.html

mitosis

banie01 wrote: »

I posted the below a couple of years ago on a thread discussing ''accidental deaths''
Since I posted it, I have lost another 13 friends and acquaintances to suicide!
As I type this reply I am getting ready to leave my house to attend the funeral of yet another friend lost to suicide.
Of these additional 13 deaths,(not counting the most recent as an inquest won't be held for quite a while yet) not 1 of them has been officially recorded as ''suicide''!
The burden of proof required for a Coroner to rule a death as a suicide is very very high!
So the vast majority are ruled as misadventure or open verdicts.
Compare that to the HSE figures for self harm?
If we don't admit the extent of the problem, how can we ever effectively address the issue?
Our government persist in the lie that our suicide rate is @500 deaths per year!
It really is an order of magnitude higher!
It is an all too silent epidemic that too many of our politicians and policy makers are happy to ignore.

I have never known anyone who committed suicide, nor died "accidentally".

Does this mean official figures are too high?

Of course not - it simply means one persons experience is not representative.

I don't believe there is any or a significant increase in self termination. It is simply more reported

banie01

mitosis wrote: »

I have never known anyone who committed suicide, nor died "accidentally".

Does this mean official figures are too high?

Of course not - it simply means one persons experience is not representative.

I don't believe there is any or a significant increase in self termination. It is simply more reported

That is the problem, it is more reported in the media...Yes.
It is however not recorded by coroners in the same manner.
And it is these ''Official'' numbers that are used as the basis for Government policy.
If a person leaves no note, or doesn't make their intention to end their life explicitly clear.
Then legally the Coroner cannot rule a death as a suicide.
So despite the circumstances of the death being obvious, the verdict is not able to be recorded as suicide.

Wibbs

Recognition and reporting of this has most certainly gone up from the bad old days and there's certainly more help around these days, it would be my strong feeling that the rate has gone up. 20 years ago I too knew quite a number of people, mostly men* who died young and it was "covered up", but not nearly the numbers I read and hear first hand today. Self harm is most definitely up IMHO and from what people in the mental health arena have noted.

It would also be my take, that while the interweb and social media has opened many avenues for people to talk about these subjects in a healthy way, that's a double edged sword too. It can also act as a trigger and a support for such triggers. EG look at the rise of pro anorexia sites. It gives vulnerable individuals support and a sense of community(and internal competition) in a very unhealthy way.







*I knew a fair number of young women who attempted something, but more "cry for help" stuff. The men, with a couple of exceptions, gave no indication of their intentions.

seamus

I wonder will that guy ever come back who was claiming here on boards that nobody in Ireland ever committed suicide or had depression until the 1970s and that these were modern illnesses caused by materialism?

It comes up every now and again, but while suicide reportage is definitely on the rise, it's basically impossible to say if suicide itself is.

When someone dies, there are a number of agencies with the power and the will to cover up suicide and I don't think we'll ever arrive at a perfect scenario where all suicides are recorded, but the stigma will slowly leave and suicides recognised for what they are rather than something for a family to be ashamed of.

The only suicide which has occurred close to me was ruled as a natural death under pressure from the mother. He killed himself with a massive drug overdose, but the family doctor, who'd been under the mother's thumb for years, was called in and ruled death by heart attack.

Worldwide, numbers are still all over the place. Most dictatorship countries report zero suicides, primarily because this would sully the facade of happiness.

The one thing we do need to watch out for though is the publicity of this stuff. When one person's face makes it into the media, reported as a suicide and has lines and lines of glowing representations of how missed they are and how great they were, you're practically causing a few more suicides.
As counter-intuitive as it seems, the more you publicise suicide, the more suicides it causes. That's not say we should avoid talking about it in general, but the media should be warned off publicising specific cases and making a big deal out of them.

RachaelVO

Wibbs wrote: »

*I knew a fair number of young women who attempted something, but more "cry for help" stuff. The men, with a couple of exceptions, gave no indication of their intentions.

Personally I think that's the biggest worry. Don't mean this to sound blaise, but women can at least talk about feeling depressed among their peers and family without being labelled. Men on the other hand don't have it that easy, cos they're expected to talk about sport, work and sport again. I do realise I'm generalising there, but I've heard the conversations my dad and my brother have and that's usually what they're all about. So if men mention that they are struggling, they fear a slagging backlash. I do wonder if one man in a group did say he was struggling, would there be support? I have to hope yes there would, but as I'm not in that specific peer group I can't answer that one.

Roger_007

mathie wrote: »

I noticed this the other day ...


http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/surge-in-farmer-suicides-linked-to-fodder-crisis-29507495.html

I wouldn't pay too much attention to this. The IFA were looking for government help for the fodder crisis. It was irresponsible of them to link this to suicides. They did not produce any evidence that any of the reported suicides were had any link the fodder crisis. It was just a straightforward attempt to use emotional blackmail to obtain an advantage for their members.

Akrasia

There is a strong legal incentive for the family of suicide victims to record their death as an open verdict or misadventure as life assurance will not pay out in cases of suicide and there is probably a similar impact on car insurance claims where the deliberately crashing the car is the chosen method of suicide.

Suicide is an extremely complex issue and there may be a perverse consequence to a more open attitude towards suicide.

We need to be really careful about how we approach this subject.
There is evidence that openly talking about suicide can remove the stigma attached to suicde and remove some of the barriers to others who are borderline suicidal and make it psychologically easier for them to choose the option of suicide.

What is the goal in discussing suicide, is it to provide support to the families of suicide victims, or is it to reduce the numbers of suicides?

Human psychology is a funny old thing, and as we are social animals, we are more likely to act in ways that are perceived as 'normal'. In fact, the feeling of estrangement from society is one of the major drivers of depression and unhappiness

Normal is defined in our brains, as something that we are exposed to regularly, which was fine for the last million years as we were only exposed to events that happened locally and directly impacted on our lives, but we now have mass media, so even very rare events are now widely reported, and these are skewing our perceptions of normality.

Things that are 'normal' are by default, seen as more socially acceptable.

Perhaps the best way to tackle suicide is not to encourage the families to speak out or encourage others to seek help if they are suicidal, but to provide supports to the families to grieve in private, but also to increase resources for support services in schools and workplaces and communities to promote overall mental health and also tackle problems like bullying and financial hardship.

I don't know what the best solution should be, but we need an evidence based approach to this very serious problem.

I Heart Internet

Granted, my circle of friends, aquantences, colleagues, etc may not be as broad as other people's, but I struggle to remember only a small handful of these (and some would be very distant to me) who have died by suicide in the last decade or so.

Everyone's experience is different.

Anyone who's reding this and worried should speak to someone about it (OP has posted links above but GPs, friends, family, clergy, school teachers - all good places to start).

Take it from someone who knows - a problem, ANY problem, doesn't seem quite so bad once you've spoken to someone about it. This advice comes with the "I heart internet, cast iron guarantee".

Matt_Trakker

Back in college days we read a report on how reporting on suicide brings about an increase in it.

The same goes for things like filicide (when parents kill their kids).
You can notice it yourself, when one is reported another is bound to happen soon enough.
The media is obviously in a difficult situation with this. News has to be reported, but it should be done in a specific way. Complete objectivity should be adhered to....but sure we all know, objective journalism is long dead.

I don't know the solution to it, maybe something like adding some info regarding helplines into articles or following news reports... a bit like Eastenders used to do if it had something like a wife-beating episode back in the day, don't know if they still do it though.

Also read another report saying that violent crime, including murders, has been decreasing decade on decade since records began. We're becoming less violent, but our entertainment is becoming more violent. More cops shows, more shows about lawyers, violent video games etc. It said that the police and other legal entities have a far higher rate of tv shows being about them than any other profession. When you think about it it's obviously true. The Wire, Breaking Bad, Love/Hate, the Sopranos etc etc. All cops/bad guys/law-connected shows.

When's the last time there was a show about IT engineers, civil engineers, teachers...or other popular professions? I suppose we could be being blanketed with law/police shows to try and keep us in line....and it looks to be working.

kiffer

I think: Relaxing the stigma around suicide doesn't increase the number of suicides but rather increases reports of suicide.
Allowing people to come forward and say "I am very distressed, so distressed that I feel like I might kill myself, help" is better than telling them that they are selfish cowards for not just copping on, growing up and dealling with it...

I Heart Internet

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

I don't know the solution to it, maybe something like adding some info regarding helplines into articles or following news reports... a bit like Eastenders used to do if it had something like a wife-beating episode back in the day, don't know if they still do it though.

I think there's a fairly good (voluntary, I guess) code of standards about this. Any news report from a responsible outlet now carries helplines, etc. Some might slip through but I think you see it more and more.

Matt_Trakker wrote: »

When's the last time there was a show about IT engineers, civil engineers, teachers...or other popular professions? I suppose we could be being blanketed with law/police shows to try and keep us in line....and it looks to be working.

Interesting. TV shows want to sell drama (even if they are comedies, etc) and crime and medicine give opportunites for that. There seems to be an over reliance on crime though.

I'm being serious when I suggest that a dose of something like the Rose of Tralee does people no harm at all - gentle, family fun. But, heh, whatever you're into.

Wibbs

seamus wrote: »

I wonder will that guy ever come back who was claiming here on boards that nobody in Ireland ever committed suicide or had depression until the 1970s and that these were modern illnesses caused by materialism?

Ah the it was better in the good old days stuff. Still it has been noted that traditional societies have less mental illness and lower suicide rates. The assumption was that this was due to the relative lack of stress in such societies, however this doesn't seem to be the case or at least it's the type of stress involved that are different. After all your average hunter gatherer is going to bury at least one third of his or her children before the age of ten. They may suffer stress in times of scarce food etc. They live a far more precarious existence compared to your average westerner.

So stress or obvious stresses don't seem to be the issue. Interestingly it has been noted that suicide and similar go down in times of war and overall life expectancy for the civilian population goes up. The feeling of a shared hazard, the feeling of community seems to have a protective effect in the mental health of the individual in that society.

That might be more and more a problem in modern society. While we've never had so many ways to talk to each other and even build communities, there does seem to be more of a disconnect, more people becoming socially isolated, even if technologically connected.

Plus trad societies are more stable over time. There are givens in such societies for good and ill to our eyes. There is less lifetime uncertainty. So the givens are you are part of a community on a minute by minute basis. You're going to get married, have kids and that will likely last for a lifetime. The stress to be life flexible is far less. Kinda akin to how the jobs market has gone in the last couple of decades. In say the 50's you had certain expectations in a career. Most expected to work for life in the same job. The job market was much more stable. Today few of us would expect to be in the same job for life. For many this is a good thing, but for some it can prove difficult. I'd say it's harder for men than women. Women seem to be generally more flexible in this and other areas. Look at relationships. The rate of reported suicides in divorced men is three times higher than background, yet the rate for divorced women drops slightly compared to background

The one thing we do need to watch out for though is the publicity of this stuff. When one person's face makes it into the media, reported as a suicide and has lines and lines of glowing representations of how missed they are and how great they were, you're practically causing a few more suicides.
As counter-intuitive as it seems, the more you publicise suicide, the more suicides it causes.

Yep the old trigger leading to copycats factor

That's not say we should avoid talking about it in general, but the media should be warned off publicising specific cases and making a big deal out of them.

+1

RachaelVO wrote: »

I do wonder if one man in a group did say he was struggling, would there be support? I have to hope yes there would, but as I'm not in that specific peer group I can't answer that one.

Depends entirely on the male peer group. I can't speak for others, but in mine, yes, they would most certainly have support, both practical and emotional.

Roger_007

Most of the focus on suicide is on young people, especially teenagers. People of all ages commit suicide and for all sorts of reasons. There was a case in the courts recently of a woman trying to establish her right to have an 'assisted' suicide. Most people that I know sympathised with her case.
There is no point in scapegoating this or that for suicide. Sometimes not even the immediate family of the person have any idea why.
Every time there is a high-profile suicide, the usual 'experts, are trotted out on radio and TV to offer an explanation. They should keep their mouths shut because they are usually talking about people they know nothing about.
Sometimes there is just no known explanation for things that happen.

Grayson

I don't know if it's increasing, although I would believe it's being reported more. It's also being sensationalised. We keep hearing about teen deaths due to bullying and depression. When something as horrible as a teenage suicide (or any suicide) happens, we tend to react in a knee jerk reaction.
The sad fact is that this has and always will occur. We do need to make sure that we have adequate safeguards. We do need to make sure that help is available for those who need it. We need to make sure that people can a) recognise the signs of depression in both themselves and others. And b)we need to make sure depression isn't stigmatised because the worst thing about depression for most people is the fact that they do feel alienated.
But we also need to realise that no matter how much we do and no matter how much we invest, it will still occur. This isn't something we can create a vaccine for (well, maybe in a few years we'll all go brave new world and create a type of human that is incapable of feeling upset).

As for it occurring more often, I don't think so. Humans have an irrational ability to over estimate certain dangers. It's the reason people think crime is on the increase when it has for the most part been decreasing for 20+ years. Added to the fact that suicides occur in clusters, it makes it seem that when it's occurring there's loads, despite the fact that it's still the same amount when you examine the figures over a slightly longer time frame.

KyussBishop

If we discussed suicide more openly, and there was not so much of a stigma surrounding it, then political/societal pressure would be created to do something about the actual root causes of suicide (which can differ hugely between cases of course).

The cynic in me, thinks that it's actually advantageous for some political groups/elites, to put dealing with suicide on the long finger, because of the harm it would cause their political goals or privileged positions, where those goals play a part in motivating the suicide (playing with the stats, under-reporting suicide, just adds to this feeling).

So, without talking more openly about suicide and its motivations, it's far less likely something will be done both about suicide, and about its root causes.

token56

I think at present it is an unanswerable question simply because there are not enough reliable and unbiased statistics to evaluate the question, but one thing is for sure the perception of suicide in society and discussions around it is certainly changing.

I do agree there is a risk that an unguided discussion and openness about suicide could lead to a normalization of it and I dont think that is something we want as a society but the stigmas around mental health problems do need to stop, I think they slowly are. I will say I speak for experience and I am fresh out of a 10 week stay at probably this countries best mental health facility, albeit a private one, for depression and other related mental health problems. The majority of people who know me now know about this and I have to say the support has been fantastic. Along with this there is a willingness to want to be better educated about my problems so they can appreciate them more be more knowledgeable themselves which is wonderful to see in my opinion.

But being in hospital I have to say I was genuinely shocked at the number of people receiving treatment and in particular the number of fellow young adults. Talking to the doctors and the rest of staff it is very clear there is a huge demand for quality mental health services in this country, and in their opinion the number of people at least being open about suffering from mental health problems has increased. After my stay there I honestly think mental health related illness is becoming one of the biggest issues affecting our society at present.

The public health service in this country is massively lacking when it comes to mental health care and I have been lucky enough to be able to get better care than it can offer but there are so many that don't. Research has shown that a significant proportion of mild depressive symptoms are best treated with counselling and therapy, of which there are many types, compared to medication when it comes to success in treating the symptoms and relapse. There are many types of endogenous or more severe problems in which medication or a combination of both work best. Unfortunately medication is the solution most commonly offered by the public health service in this country. Of course the type of resources required to provide the type of wide scale multi disciplinary care necessary is immense and in recessionary times it is probably simply not possible. The plan outlined by the government in their "A vision for change" document published in 2006 goes some way to achieving the type of services that would be needed but it is one of things that has been lost in the recession it seems.

I think there is room for simple things to be done which would make huge differences. Because of the care I got I have been able to learn several skills that simply make me better able to life my live. Skills which help me manage depression, but really they are skills that ideally everybody should learn growing up but seem to be getting lost for some reason. I really think things like stress management skills for example should be thought as a subject at school like any other subject. It is taken for granted that children learn will just learn these things but there seems to be something about society today which is both increasing the stress experienced and the ability to handle it. Whatever the reason one thing is for sure, the reports of suicide do seem to be increasing and something tangible and effective needs to be done to help people more.

Christ the Redeemer

There appears to be a significant enough rise in suicides of middle aged men. No doubt linked in part to the collapsing jobs market. Older men who have worked most of their lives will be affected by a sudden unemployment more so than younger folk, who already account for most suicides. Military men from war like nations also account for a lot of them.

More American and Israeli soldiers take their own lives than are killed in combat.

I Heart Internet

I had some professional experience in Southern Africa in the early noughties and remember reading newspapers there that would regulalry speak about young people having died. They could be young politicians or very minor celebs - just well-known people. But the newspapers would never say what they had died of. They used to report it as if it was some mystery illness or some accident. In fact, of course, the poeple had died of HIV/Aids.

There is a certain familiarity in the way suicide is SOMETIMES dealt with in Irish society.

I honestly don't know whether it's right to go into details and openly state what happened in such cases or not. I'm not an expert on these things.

Real Life

like a lot of people have said its being reported more but im not sure its actually increasing. personally i know a lot of people who have done it but they have been happening for as long as i can remember not just recently

Akrasia

kiffer wrote: »

I think: Relaxing the stigma around suicide doesn't increase the number of suicides but rather increases reports of suicide.
Allowing people to come forward and say "I am very distressed, so distressed that I feel like I might kill myself, help" is better than telling them that they are selfish cowards for not just copping on, growing up and dealling with it...

Is that a false dichotomy and an over simplification?

When you're severely depressed, your emotions take over and your brain starts to rationalise your emotional state which amplifies the problem.

Reducing the stigma attached to mental health issues is a really good thing. We should be far more open about mental illness and we should devote far more resources to promoting good mental health for everyone, and not just target interventions at those who may be feeling suicidal (by this time, it may already be too late)

However, reporting on individual cases of suicides, especially high profile cases of celebrities and especially tragic circumstances has been proven to increase the level of suicide in the population

The law of unintended consequences can be a bastard at times.

Research finds an increase in suicide by readers or viewers when:
• • The number of stories about individual suicides increases3,4
• • A particular death is reported at length or in many stories3,5
• • The story of an individual death by suicide is placed on the
front page or at the beginning of a broadcast3,4
• • The headlines about specific suicide deaths are dramatic3 (A
recent example: "Boy, 10, Kills Himself Over Poor Grades")

http://www.sprc.org/sites/sprc.org/files/library/sreporting.pdf

Right now, the papers are plastered with images and stories about young girls killing themselves because of online bullying. Unfortunately, this kind of reporting will lead to more young girls taking their own lives.

While the media may think that they are highlighting the issue to encourage others to seek help, what they're actually doing is implanting the idea of suicide as an escape mechanism into the brains of very vulnerable people. These girls are at a low point in their young lives and when they see the wave of sympathy for other girls in their situation who took their own lives, it increases their own suicide risk

KyussBishop

What I wonder, is if the wider societal damage of not talking about it and not having it reported more (which may result in less/slower efforts at reform and tackling it), is greater than the damage of reporting it more and leading to an (unquantified?) increase in suicides, from people who potentially were already on the edge and heading that way.

There is damage both ways in my view, and it's not easy to objectively quantify them and say which situation is worse than the other - though certainly, I think there is no place for sensationalistic/exploitative reporting, as that is harm without any redeeming quality.

token56

KyussBishop wrote: »

What I wonder, is if the wider societal damage of not talking about it and not having it reported more (which may result in less/slower efforts at reform and tackling it), is greater than the damage of reporting it more and leading to an (unquantified?) increase in suicides, from people who potentially were already on the edge and heading that way.

There is damage both ways in my view, and it's not easy to objectively quantify them and say which situation is worse than the other - though certainly, I think there is no place for sensationalistic/exploitative reporting, as that is harm without any redeeming quality.

As you say they are two sides to it. Not talking about it, tends to lead to a stigmatization of suicide and therefore mental health problems, sort of like the elephant in the room. Not talking about it doesn't have to have this effect but it tends to, particularly with the issue it seems. This makes it more difficult for effective solutions to be put in place. It encourages the idea that the problems that cause suicide should also not be talked about. Again this doesn't have to happen but its the tendency. Overall not talking about suicide is less likely to provide effective solutions to the issue.

While it has potential to exasperated the issue, talking about it leads to a greater potential of solutions I feel. It has a tendency to make people feel less ashamed about the problems they might be suffering. It might potentially glorify the idea but I think its a problem which itself can be addressed through proper education and is a risk worth taking, particularly if increased talking about suicide is done in the right way from the start.

Grayson

Christ the Redeemer wrote: »

There appears to be a significant enough rise in suicides of middle aged men. No doubt linked in part to the collapsing jobs market. Older men who have worked most of their lives will be affected by a sudden unemployment more so than younger folk, who already account for most suicides. Military men from war like nations also account for a lot of them.

More American and Israeli soldiers take their own lives than are killed in combat.

Middle aged men have always been the biggest demographic for suicide. This goes for men in general. As far as I'm aware more teenage boys commit suicide than teenage girls. The reason you don't hear about middle aged men committing suicide as much is because it's not as news worthy.

Czarcasm

Posted this a few days ago in another thread-

Czarcasm wrote: »

I agree with everything you said kiffer, except for the fact that stigmatising suicide is what makes it hard to talk about it. That's putting the cart before the horse. I would contend that the act of suicide itself is hard for people to talk about, because nobody (quite understandably IMO) actually WANTS to talk about suicide. That's where the stigma comes from, and you can't force anyone to talk about something that unsettles them or makes them uncomfortable if they don't want to talk about it.

I personally don't and would never encourage anyone to talk about suicide, it's really not a pleasant subject and it harps back to the days of the over the fence gossip fodder more than it will actually encourage anyone to talk about their mental health.

And there's the thing. In those people to whom a mental health scenario applies, which comes first- ill mental health, or suicide? Ill mental health comes first. So you have to encourage people to talk about their mental health first, before it becomes a problem, before it leads them to consider suicide as their only alternative.

Statisticians getting funky with the numbers and people trying to dress up suicide in fluffy language are only exacerbating the problem by making suicide in circumstances such as mental health excusable. It's really not excusable that someone should get to the point where they consider suicide as their only alternative, and that's why I personally have no time for applying statistics to individuals. Statistics help us only to record and quantify instances of an issue, they don't help to do anything about the issue on an individual level.

If suicide becomes an acceptable method of treating mental health issues in society, then funding for research and treatment of mental health issues is considered unnecessary expenditure by our Government (remember that €35m the department of health had ringfenced for suicide prevention? Whoosh. Gone. And barely a whisper about where it went), because people's apathy and acceptance of suicide in society has effectively "solved the problem" for them.

The HSE and Government came up with the "A Vision For Change" policy in 2006. It's now 2013, and things have gone from bad to worse. How many more people will have to see suicide as their only alternative before society takes the blinkers off and realises that suicide isn't the problem, but it's fast becoming the acceptable solution to ineptitude. This shouldn't be acceptable to anybody.

banie and mitosis will also be familiar with Shannon and Sarsfield bridges in Limerick where up to last year, well, I had lost count of the number of times the rescue services were called out to search the river, hoping for rescue rather than recovery. In recent years the issue became so bad (rescue out every weekend) that they had to have a permanent rescue boat service on the river near the Clarion hotel. They also have volunteers patrol the bridges on weekend nights.

Just this morning while waiting for the bus to go to work, I was standing at the bus stop and a guy I'd never met before said hello. Within five minutes he'd told me his wife of 12 years had left him and taken their children back to Poland, he was very upset and depressed about it he said. I'll be honest I felt right awkward about him offloading on me like that, but I said to him look call work and tell them you'll be in late and we'll go for a coffee.

We chatted anyway and he offloaded some more, I have no particular skills in this area, just an oversize set of ears, that's all he needed at that moment I figured. He felt an awful lot better after our chat and so we got the next bus. That was half an hour out of my day, nothing to me, but it meant a lot to him.

I'm working with a charity organisation at the moment to overhaul their IT infrastructure, and we had a meeting this morning (which obviously I was late for), but when I got in, all the big wigs were down for the day, and all of them in the room were getting all gooey-eyed about statistics and reports and how they would collate all their data and I just thought "Lads, ye're completely losing sight of the people ye're supposed to be helping!". So I said it to them (I said a lot more but Boards is a PG-13 website).

This seemed to shock them, but they shouldn't have been shocked. It shouldn't have come as news to them. Their hands-off approach needed a collective kick up the hole, they needed to be reminded who their "clients" and "service users" are. They're people, human beings, with real lives that don't just happen between the hours of 9 and 5 Monday to Friday, and when I put in a call to a homeless person shelter only to get the fcuking answering machine telling me they're out to lunch, leave a message, well, that just says it all really.

These people are your friends, neighbours, and even strangers. It won't kill you to take five minutes out of your day to listen to them, but it might just make all the difference to them.

nlgbbbblth

banie01 wrote: »

I posted the below a couple of years ago on a thread discussing ''accidental deaths''
Since I posted it, I have lost another 13 friends and acquaintances to suicide!

That's a lot - you've had it tough.
While you say they're not "recorded" as suicides, are they acknowledged as such amongst the wider group of friends / relatives?

kowloon

On the topic of unintentionally publicising suicide by reporting it, the same thing seems to happen with suicide hotspots. Certain places attract increasing numbers. The Golden Gate Bridge is one that had a film made about it (The Bridge). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suicide_sites

A short piece about the suicide forest in Japan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FDSdg09df8

WilyCoyote

Don't know if the rate is increasing, but the reportage seems to be. Out here, someone kills oneself and the paper reports it in 5 lines. Irish people seem to empathise more and need to put themselves in the position of a grieving relative. The papers will only print what people want to read. The why's and how's don't interest people. Unless it's a close relative or friend - people rarely discuss these things. Not saying it's right, it's just the way things are.

banie01

nlgbbbblth wrote: »

That's a lot - you've had it tough.
While you say they're not "recorded" as suicides, are they acknowledged as such amongst the wider group of friends / relatives?

Acknowledged as such by family and friends, yes of course....
The problem isn't those affected by suicide acknowledging it, and there are some fantastic groups in the Limerick area doing absolutely trojan work both in the realm of prevention and in post-suicide bereavement counselling and so on.
The problem is this.
In 10yrs I have been personally acquainted with 43 suicides, deaths acknowledged and accepted by all those involved as suicide.
The vast majority young men of my own age(I'm almost 34 now) but across the spectrum of Sex and age.

Of those 43 suicides only 4 were officially recorded by the Coroners court as suicide!
That is less than 10% of the total!
It is these officially recorded numbers that are the basis for the continuing government line of ''500'' suicides per year.
The death certificate/coroners court figures are the cornerstone of the Government spending plans for dealing with the Suicide crisis.
In my own albeit limited experience of the numbers.

Yes Suicide is dealt with much more openly nowadays in the Media and there is a growing awareness of the need for dedicated mental health strategy and anti suicide campaign.

Unfortunately, a story in the media means nothing to the beancounters in the policy making positions of Government Vs their own CSO statistics.
It boils down to a cooking of the books in how the numbers are reported.
The level of ''proof'' required for a Coroner to declare a Suicide in Ireland is exceptionally high, a coroner cannot decide that someone may have meant to take their own life without incontrovertible proof.
See this article where a coroner of 12yrs standing states he has NEVER recorded a suicide verdict.

Akrasia wrote: »

There is a strong legal incentive for the family of suicide victims to record their death as an open verdict or misadventure as life assurance will not pay out in cases of suicide

This is incorrect.
Life assurance actuaries include suicide in their calculations and while most policies incude a ''Suicide Clause'' and will not pay out for a suicide in the 1st 2yrs from the date of policy inception after this period has elapsed, Suicide does not preclude settlement.
It is always dependant on Policy wording but in general once the clause period has passed(Generally 2yrs) the policy treats Suicide same as any other death.
The calculations used to determine the risks for the Insurance companies take Suicide into account and the clause is designed to ensure someone doesn't take out a policy and ''act'' a few weeks later.

Archeron

kowloon wrote: »

On the topic of unintentionally publicising suicide by reporting it, the same thing seems to happen with suicide hotspots. Certain places attract increasing numbers. The Golden Gate Bridge is one that had a film made about it (The Bridge)]

That's a really strange film. I seen it years ago but just last weekend read some critic reviews and the divide on opinion as to the films purpose is very stark. Its very sobering viewing.

RachaelVO

Archeron wrote: »

That's a really strange film. I seen it years ago but just last weekend read some critic reviews and the divide on opinion as to the films purpose is very stark. Its very sobering viewing.

I lived in SF for a while and TBH the do tend to keep it quiet, it was only when I came home that I realised what went on on the bridge, never had a clue when I was there.