Catholicism in England.

brianbeenan

I have been working on and off in London over the last few months doing consulting work for my company. Since it can get boring during the week staying at a hotel I starting going to mass in Westminster Cathedral as it was nearby. They have a sung mass at 17:30 daily. What struck me was the Orthodox Catholicism that is shown, Something I have not seen much in Ireland, certainly not in the Pro-Cathedral. Apart from the magnificent Cathedral itself in Byzantine style its great place to go. They have a choir that sings daily. There is confession available, but there is a queue.

I spoke to some people who go there regularly and asked was it just Westminster or do other places in England have such reverence and it seems there is a lot of very Orthodox Catholics in England. When I say a lot more than I expected.. Then a lady pointed out to me that last year Catholic churchgoers outnumber Anglicans for the first time since the Reformation. Also the ordinate Lady of Walsingham has brought many Anglicans back to the Catholic Church.

Anyway just wondering if anyone else has anything to share on this topic.

MrPudding

brianbeenan wrote: »

I have been working on and off in London over the last few months doing consulting work for my company. Since it can get boring during the week staying at a hotel I starting going to mass in Westminster Cathedral as it was nearby. They have a sung mass at 17:30 daily. What struck me was the Orthodox Catholicism that is shown, Something I have not seen much in Ireland, certainly not in the Pro-Cathedral. Apart from the magnificent Cathedral itself in Byzantine style its great place to go. They have a choir that sings daily. There is confession available, but there is a queue.

I spoke to some people who go there regularly and asked was it just Westminster or do other places in England have such reverence and it seems there is a lot of very Orthodox Catholics in England. When I say a lot more than I expected.. Then a lady pointed out to me that last year Catholic churchgoers outnumber Anglicans for the first time since the Reformation. Also the ordinate Lady of Walsingham has brought many Anglicans back to the Catholic Church.

Anyway just wondering if anyone else has anything to share on this topic.

I think, like most things, it largely depends on the area. There is a massive number of people around Westminster, and I am sure people will travel further than they might otherwise were the venue not so magnificent.

The area where I live have a funny little church, in a converted dairy! It services quite a wide area but the services are only really on a Sunday and confession equally as infrequent. I also think it is quite "laid back."

I would guess that areas with large numbers of immigrants, from tradionally more orthodox countries would probably tend towards more orthodox services, servicing your market, and all that.

MrP

Kevhog1988

im living in salford in manchester at the moment. I never tought there was a big catholic community here at all tbh until one of my mams friends died. The church was packed with either irish or irish decent familys and unlike mass in ireland nowadays people could actually recite there prayers

brianbeenan

theemigrant wrote: »

im living in salford in manchester at the moment. I never tought there was a big catholic community here at all tbh until one of my mams friends died. The church was packed with either irish or irish decent familys and unlike mass in ireland nowadays people could actually recite there prayers

Well the Irish do funerals in a Big way.. we go to funerals sometimes on the off chance we might have known the person.. or so it seems to me as my parents and aunts/Uncles are always going to them.

brian_t

brianbeenan wrote: »

Also the ordinate Lady of Walsingham has brought many Anglicans back to the Catholic Church.

The Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham enabled Anglicans to join the Catholic church in protest at the Ordination of Women particularly as bishops.

A lot of the Anglicans would have been in the High Church part of the Church of England which I think means that they might have had more in common with the Catholic church anyway, then they had with the more evangelical side of that church.

I've never seen any figures given out as to the numbers that switched but I believe it was quite a lot.

lmaopml

theemigrant wrote: »

im living in salford in manchester at the moment. I never tought there was a big catholic community here at all tbh until one of my mams friends died. The church was packed with either irish or irish decent familys and unlike mass in ireland nowadays people could actually recite there prayers

Some variations and corrections have been made to the translation recently and a lot of Irish people are adjusting..lol....it can vary from parish to parish tbh, and sometimes depends on whether the Priest 'invites' the congregation to take control and understand that it's not the end of the world, just a better translation.

I recently traveled a little more around Ireland and passed through a little parish in Skerries north Co. Dublin - St. Patrick's I believe was the name of the Church, I was pleasantly suprised and loved the sense of reverence for the real presence, it was palpable, and the sense of community and purpose, really nice - Scripture studies, lectio divina, the lot. No music though..lol...I think the folk were very genuine, you get that sense sometimes...I'd defo go there again if I'm passing through, lovely folk.

Also, as to the Omnipresence, (rambling now, so bear with me..) I've just got to recommend the view from the famous 'rope bridge' walk in Co. Antrim at near on sunset. Beautiful. I think 'beauty' is what we Catholics see as an important way of seeing God's presence, much like the beauty of the Liturgy and Mass. So I had to pop that view in there for anybody travelling up north - defo go do the rope bridge..!:)

Frito

I can't give any opinion on the current situation but I recall from my childhood summer holidays in Ireland how different mass was in comparison to UK.
a) it was MUCH shorter, unbelievably so, often half the time
b) all congregational responses were spoken hurriedly, often overtaking the priest!
c) no hymns (except if we went to the cathedral instead of local church)
d) segregation of men and women (country thing I believe-men always stood at the back)
e) you didn't go home after mass, you went to the pub.

Frito

Also meant to add to b) that the congregation didn't respond in tandem either, great variety in pace and amplitude within congregation.

hinault

I've attended Catholic weddings in Britain.

In my view the singing of hymns - old traditional hymns - at these weddings was one distinct aspect that I did notice.

Manach

Recalling my Waugh studies, ie Brideshead, there had always been a recusant remnant from the time of the Civil Wars of the 17thC. They have a tendency to be geographically clustered and slightly out of date in the main stream of Catholicism - as the OP mentioned. There have been periodic phases were Catholicism had been fashionable in English history (the "Gothic phase" of the mid 18thC and the Oxford movement) which also influenced the development of such.

doctoremma

brianbeenan wrote: »

Anyway just wondering if anyone else has anything to share on this topic.

I work next door to the biggest Catholic church (indeed, the biggest whatever church) in Manchester. It is a massive and beautiful structure. They have a daily mass at lunch but I don't see many people (if any) going in. To be honest, having just looked it up, I was slightly surprised to find out there actually was a daily mass.

Not even those touring around "buildings mentioned in Smiths songs" appear to visit (I'm assuming I would recognise such people by their haircuts and clothing, no?).

The wider area is quite likely the issue here. The local population (at lunchtimes, at least) are probably 90 % students, so maybe naturally not the most religious/devout?

I Heart Internet

Brian. England is a great place to be a catholic tbh. I spent some time working in the southeast of England (Thames Valley) and found that the variety, vitality and orthodoxy (in some cases) to be a refreshing change from the one-size-fits-all, get-them-out-as -fast-as-possible approach that we see in too many parishes in Ireland.

Westminster Cathedral is great. I'd also suggest you check out the Brompton Oratory http://www.bromptonoratory.com/Oratory_Home.html and, if you're heading further afield, I can reccomend the Oxford Oratory (or the Dominican college - Blackfriars in the city) http://www.oxfordoratory.org.uk/

indy_man

I have regrets from my time in the past living in London and not getting to Brompton Abbey, and a few other such places. At the time buckfast abbey had more attraction for me. But indeed there is a great Catholic history in England.

Geomy

I think they do it the right way in the UK
I don't go to mass too often, but it chops and changes, the Catholic Church in Ireland downgrades quite a lot. ..
Trying to be trendy, taking short cuts etc. ..

I said it in an earlier thread that there's far more Catholics in the UK than Ireland....

Nothing like a good long Latin mass in Wales :-)

indy_man

Geomy wrote: »

I think they do it the right way in the UK
I don't go to mass too often, but it chops and changes, the Catholic Church in Ireland downgrades quite a lot. ..
Trying to be trendy, taking short cuts etc. ..

I said it in an earlier thread that there's far more Catholics in the UK than Ireland....

Nothing like a good long Latin mass in Wales :-)

I think I agree, I would rather if parts of mass did not change and even went more traditional. Saying that I love mass and try and make it daily or well as much as possible, it adds a lot to my day in many ways. I am amazed by mass attendence which has increased so much in the last year, daily mass that is, some places I go to early in the morning are almost packed out...

Geomy

indy_man wrote: »

I think I agree, I would rather if parts of mass did not change and even went more traditional. Saying that I love mass and try and make it daily or well as much as possible, it adds a lot to my day in many ways. I am amazed by mass attendence which has increased so much in the last year, daily mass that is, some places I go to early in the morning are almost packed out...

The old traditional style mass almost had a mystical magic aura about it, todays mass is too sterile.

Maybe if Catholicism embraced it's spiritual and mystical side more it might draw back the new age spiritualist s etc

There's so much wisdom in the mystic, John Moriarty used to give talks in masses, but the regulars here have no time for the layman mystic.
The man of the cloth seems to be more important. ...

robp

Geomy wrote: »

I think they do it the right way in the UK
I don't go to mass too often, but it chops and changes, the Catholic Church in Ireland downgrades quite a lot. ..
Trying to be trendy, taking short cuts etc. ..

I said it in an earlier thread that there's far more Catholics in the UK than Ireland....

Nothing like a good long Latin mass in Wales :-)

In 2010 and 2011 I was involved in the Catholic chaplaincy in London. Wow do they do things properly. Really beautiful masses with a tasteful balance of tradition and Vatican II, with a push for social justice. Our student chapel was always packed. Always.