Being Managed Out

LegacyUser

I work in the perfect job for me with a small organisation of about seven people. Worked there for three years. My manager was my friend but when things got difficult at work I became something of a scapegoat. I have made mistakes and admitted this. My manager stopped talking to me about anything other than work six months ago. It's difficult to take as this person is someone I like. We weren't friends for no reason, we regularly went out together and were pretty relaxed and informal. Now that has all stopped and I've spent much of the last six months focusing on this instead of my work. I've tried to talk things through, offered apologies and asked if we could start over once we'd cleared the air. All of this has been rebuffed. A couple of things have led me to believe that I am being managed out of this job. I've worked too hard, put in too many extra hours and been too loyal to the organisation in tricky situations to just resign. But it is difficult, and I've found myself being tetchy and upset when we've talked lately.
What can I do when trying to talk to this person hasn't worked? I have six months left in my contract. Do I just get on with it? My personality makes it hard for me to be all nice when my gut tells me this is simply wrong. I know I don't deserve to be treated this way. I also know I've made mistakes in work. But how long do you put up with a nasty atmosphere when you know others have been managed out of the organisation in a similar way? Do I come straight out and say I know what's going on here and I won't be managed out?

Mrs OBumble

You admit that you've made mistakes.

Apologising is the first step. But it doesn't undo the damage, and it doesn't give them any confidence that you won't do it again.

Frankly, if you performance isn't up to scratch, then your manager cannot take the risk of being your friend, because their job is to either get your performance issues sorted out (ideally) or get rid of you.

Perhaps you should just do the honourable thing, and find alternative employment where you're not going to be making mistakes?

LegacyUser

That is an option. But who hasn't made mistakes in their work? I work in a fast-paced office dealing in complex financial affairs where relationships with corporations are paramount. The relationships that I have responsibility for have been strengthened in the three years since I joined the organisation. They have resulted in major financial gains for my organisation. I need the support of my manager in continuing to strengthen those relationships or else the business will suffer long term. If I can't count on that support the business loses.

gozunda

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

You admit that you've made mistakes.

Apologising is the first step. But it doesn't undo the damage, and it doesn't give them any confidence that you won't do it again.

Frankly, if you performance isn't up to scratch, then your manager cannot take the risk of being your friend, because their job is to either get your performance issues sorted out (ideally) or get rid of you.

Perhaps you should just do the honourable thing, and find alternative employment where you're not going to be making mistakes?

I quite shocked at this interpretation which is potentially derogatory to the OP and a hugely presumptuous imo.

Nowhere does the OP state that it was the admission to making some mistakes or even actually making any mistake (ie being human and being an employee that appears to be both open and honest) that made the manager effectively start what is directed and deliberate unprofessional misbehaviour towards their report. The only detail we have is that their managers behaviour changed towards them when "things got difficult" and the OP became a 'Scapegoat' and has resulted in a 'nasty atmosphere' in work. what was happening at this time - was this there a down turn in the company or other reason? I don't see that the OP has detailed this.

If there is a problem or a perceived problem in the workplace then it is incumbent on a manager to put in place a workable solution and an improvement plan. (And not just get 'rid' of them the) This manager also showed inappropriate behaviour as the senior person to encourage or otherwise effect a personal relationship with the employee that went outside the workplace.

The suggestion that the employee do the 'honourable thing' and commit career suicide is frankly ridiculous - where is the responsibility of their manager in all this?

I would suggest that the OP call a meeting with her managers manager and outline the issues to date in an open and frank manner as their manager clearly is using non professional behaviour towards the employee. They could also ask to be moved considering that their manager appears to have badly handled what ever grievance may be. The other thing the OP could do is to ask for mediation as her managers behaviour is effecting her work performance and work environment

Perhaps the OP could provide a little more detail to ascertain what changed if anything with regard to the change of behaviour towards her.

Edit: OP - you need to keep a diary of all incidents with dates, times etc if you haven't done so already.

Mrs OBumble

Frankly, I'm reading the OP the other way.

The manager has now cut off all inappropriate contact, and is discussing work only. The OP says that the manager is still discussing work, and appears to be more upset over the loss of an (inappropriate) friendship than over the workplace mistakes that they have admitted to making.

I know which would worry me more.

gozunda

shouldistayorgo2013 wrote: »

That is an option. But who hasn't made mistakes in their work? I work in a fast-paced office dealing in complex financial affairs where relationships with corporations are paramount. The relationships that I have responsibility for have been strengthened in the three years since I joined the organisation. They have resulted in major financial gains for my organisation. I need the support of my manager in continuing to strengthen those relationships or else the business will suffer long term. If I can't count on that support the business loses.

I agree - To make mistakes and actually acknowledge same is not really that unusual in a normal working environment. If there has been any un professional relationship and this has caused as the OP stated a 'nasty atmosphere' then the manager would have a duty to initiate the resolution of any problems through mediation or other business related methods.

OP - can you provide some detail re when you referred to becoming the 'scapegoat' / being managed out?

bbam

I'll just stick in my tuppence worth..

Just remember that your manager will have a manager, they will have reviewed all the "problem people" in the managment chain.

What has happened me in the past is that after reviewing the employees under a number of junior managers a senior manager will choose x number under each junior manager to be managed out the door.

OP's direct manager may have no choice in this process at all, an order like that can be handed down the managment chain and it just falls to him to make it happen..

I've done this on a number of occasions, managed people out whom I would probably have put on a PIP and given another chance. It's not nice, but then not everything at work needs to be nice, just professional.

gozunda

bbam wrote: »

I'll just stick in my tuppence worth..

Just remember that your manager will have a manager, they will have reviewed all the "problem people" in the managment chain.

What has happened me in the past is that after reviewing the employees under a number of junior managers a senior manager will choose x number under each junior manager to be managed out the door.

...

I've done this on a number of occasions, managed people out whom I would probably have put on a PIP and given another chance. It's not nice, but then not everything at work needs to be nice, just professional.

A number of points / questions on this:

1) how is this behaviour "Professional"
2) forget 'nice' - how is this type of action in any way even ethical?
3) If proved to have happened I doubt whether it would be even seen as legal

Btw you make the presumption that the OP is a "problem person" ....

bbam

gozunda wrote: »

A number of points / questions on this:

1) how is this behaviour "Professional"
2) forget 'nice' - how is this type of action in any way even ethical?
3) If proved to have happened I doubt whether it would be even seen as legal

Btw you make the presumption that the OP is a "problem person" ....

OP has admitted to making mistakes at work... the people who make the most mistakes are poor performers, problem people, low end distribution or whatever buzz term the company will have for them.

Managed out the door merely refers to applying the full rigour of the discipline process available to bring the person to termination, by applying the absolute letter of a good discipline process it can be done without being "illegal" as you put it..
Its usually no problem with repeat offenders, be that timekeeping, attendance, work rate or quality of work.

gozunda

bbam wrote: »

OP has admitted to making mistakes at work... the people who make the most mistakes are poor performers, problem people, low end distribution or whatever buzz term the company will have for them.

Managed out the door merely refers to applying the full rigour of the discipline process available to bring the person to termination, by applying the absolute letter of a good discipline process it can be done without being "illegal" as you put it..
Its usually no problem with repeat offenders, be that timekeeping, attendance, work rate or quality of work.

Unless individuals are robots Everyone makes mistakes - where does it say the OP has made 'most mistakes'
Presume much?

Your description of being 'managed out' in your first post after being apparently unfairly selected (ie without proper process) and as outlined in an employees normal terms and conditions would constitute unfair dismissal no matter how you attempt to mince or dice the description

If and where companies do use this methodology and any apparent complicity and agreement with same as you have indicated is in fact a very poor indicator of the way some companies are being managed.

It would be more useful if you could specifically answer the questions as stated previously and explain why you are making the inexplicable presumption that the OP is by your definition 'the problem'

davo10

Obfuscate: to make obscure or unclear: to obfuscate a problem with extraneous information.

It's not clear if the OP is more upset about the changing personal/social relationship with manager or what he/she perceives as a changed attitude towards his/her work performance.

It is appropriate for a manager to keep a certain distance from the employees he/she is in charge of, this allows for impartial decisions to be made and can prevent allegations of favouritism or bias.

Also I'm not sure if both Op and manager are both girls, both boys, girl and boy but there may also be external pressure to spend less time together from a partner.

Regarding mistakes, these may be minor or major, occasional or repeated leading to loss of clients or allegations of substandard performance. Everyone makes mistakes but it is wholly appropriate for a manager to comment on them and may be negligent if the manager did not.

There is a very important point in Op post which may be the crux of the matter. You say you have been there for three years and have six months left on your contract. Therefore you have a "fixed term contract" which is coming to its end. You may not be being "managed out", the company may not however have decided to renew your contract. Before gozunda jumps in with a long post about the rights and wrongs of this, here are a few facts about fixed term contracts:

• fixed term contracts are as the name implies, for a specific term. At the end of the term the employer is under no obligation to renew nor the employee to remain.

• people employed under ftc's have the same rights as full time employes except at the end of the contract the employer can let the employee go. You do not have rights under the Unfair Dismissals act at the end if the contract, but this must be stated in your contract.

• your employer can not employ you under the terms of a ftc for a term exceeding four years, after this period you must be employed on a full time basis. This point is important, after 3 years and 6 months, your next contract would either have to be short term for five months ( you will know the writing Iain the wall if you get offered this) or a full time contract. The situation may now be that your manager may or may not know what the company plan to do and feels uncomfortable that he/she may have to be the one to tell you.

• after ftc ends, if company wants to employ someone full time to your job, they must consider you for that full time position.

Just bare in mind OP that this could all be in your head, the problem could be with the manager, he/she could be under severe pressure from above and is feeling the strain.

gozunda

davo10 wrote: »

...
It's not clear if the OP is more upset about the changing personal/social relationship with manager or what he/she perceives as a changed attitude towards his/her work performance.

It is appropriate for a manager to keep a certain distance from the employees he/she is in charge of, this allows for impartial decisions to be made and can prevent allegations of favouritism or bias.

Also I'm not sure if both Op and manager are both girls, both boys, girl and boy but there may also be external pressure to spend less time together from a partner.

Regarding mistakes, these may be minor or major, occasional or repeated leading to loss of clients or allegations of substandard performance. Everyone makes mistakes but it is wholly appropriate for a manager to comment on them and may be negligent if the manager did not.

There is a very important point in Op post which may be the crux of the matter. You say you have been there for three years and have six months left on your contract. Therefore you have a "fixed term contract" which is coming to its end. You may not be being "managed out", the company may not however have decided to renew your contract. Before gozunda jumps in with a long post about the rights and wrongs of this, here are a few facts about fixed term contracts:

• fixed term contracts are as the name implies, for a specific term. At the end of the term the employer is under no obligation to renew nor the employee to remain.

• people employed under ftc's have the same rights as full time employes except at the end of the contract the employer can let the employee go. You do not have rights under the Unfair Dismissals act at the end if the contract, but this must be stated in your contract....

davo

Touché - but that was also a long post!
Believe it or not I agree with your analysis above and that we do not know all the salient facts concerning the OPs situation - hence my reply to the OP on this and my stated concerns where some very serious assumptions were made without good cause.

Regarding your point on FTC - there is a mechanism that employers can keep employees running on such contracts indefinitely - suffice to say that there are employers out there who use these well beyond their intended timeframe and may also use them as a means to effectively bypass normal employment conditions.

Of interest the OP has stated that they have worked there 3 years - were the other contracts FTC?

The problem again is that with the OPs situation we just don't know. I do agree that to provide a proper response more detail may be needed.

OU812

Take the client relationships you've built up & either set up yourself or bring them to your competitor.

bbam

gozunda wrote: »

Unless individuals are robots Everyone makes mistakes - where does it say the OP has made 'most mistakes'
Presume much?

Your description of being 'managed out' in your first post after being apparently unfairly selected (ie without proper process) and as outlined in an employees normal terms and conditions would constitute unfair dismissal no matter how you attempt to mince or dice the description

If and where companies do use this methodology and any apparent complicity and agreement with same as you have indicated is in fact a very poor indicator of the way some companies are being managed.

It would be more useful if you could specifically answer the questions as stated previously and explain why you are making the inexplicable presumption that the OP is by your definition 'the problem'

I'm fairness OP admitted to making mistakes, and that OP feels they are being managed out.
I pointed out that it's not uncommon, and not always the decision of the direct manager.

I'm sorry you don't like the idea of it but please understand it happens and it's not uncommon either. I've done it, sometimes it didn't bother me, sometimes I thought it was unnecessary. It seems to happen more in medium to large companies with larger management structures.

gozunda

bbam wrote: »

I'm fairness OP admitted to making mistakes, and that OP feels they are being managed out.
I pointed out that it's not uncommon, and not always the decision of the direct manager.

I'm sorry you don't like the idea of it but please understand it happens and it's not uncommon either. I've done it, sometimes it didn't bother me, sometimes I thought it was unnecessary. It seems to happen more in medium to large companies with larger management structures.

Thanks for that

It's not that 'I don't like the idea' - the application of this processes by some employers appears to on the border of legality at best.

To be honest if and where there is a perceived issue then any responsible employer should take suitable action either through an improvement plan if there are performance issues or where it is an distinct issue between two or more employees ( irregardless of whether they are 'management' or not) And where serious issues are known of such as harassment or bullying then proper procedures need to be initiated. Otherwise companies face the prospect of possible litigation and prosecution

Btw I believe the OPs declaration of 'mistakes' is a simple declamation of a general nature (ie they are declaring they are human) rather than an admission of any specific culpability or error. The additional information that she believes she may being managed out is not necessarily connected reading the OPs first post

I do note that as of yet we don't have any further details but I would hope that the OP takes away some useful advice from what has been posted this thread

bhclexilip

bbam wrote: »

OP has admitted to making mistakes at work... the people who make the most mistakes are poor performers, problem people, low end distribution or whatever buzz term the company will have for them.

Managed out the door merely refers to applying the full rigour of the discipline process available to bring the person to termination, by applying the absolute letter of a good discipline process it can be done without being "illegal" as you put it..
Its usually no problem with repeat offenders, be that timekeeping, attendance, work rate or quality of work.

in Intel where you work a PIP (personnel improvement plan) would be following a good discipline process, while "managed out the door" is making the persons position redundant which is illegal.

bbam

bhclexilip wrote: »

in Intel where you work a PIP (personnel improvement plan) would be following a good discipline process, while "managed out the door" is making the persons position redundant which is illegal.

Never jump to conclusions - I don't work there..

But, no its not a redundancy issue, the idea is for whatever reason, to take an individual through to the termination process as swiftly as possible while keeping all paperwork in order. The position will be there after they are gone and will be filled by another/new employee.
A PIP is part of a good discipline process, indeed it can form the backbone of the termination as it documents improvments to be made - if/when these don't happen then the process can efficiently be progressed.

Stheno

Sounds to me that the core issue here is that OP is coming to the end of a 4 year contract, and as renewing means a contract of indefinite duration, his/her manager has been advised it is not being renewed and so has cooled off a little.

It literally could be as simple as that.

LegacyUser

Thanks everyone for your inputs, lots of good advice.
Let me clarify some things, and in order to protect anonymity I can't be too specific on some of the questions you raised:

It's not an issue of my contract coming to an end and going past the 3 year 6 months threshold. You'll just have to trust that I know it's not contract related.
Mistakes I made are minor, have been acknowledged and rectified. That has also been acknowledged by my manager. Again I can't be too specific.
I am being isolated and made feel like I have nothing to contribute - contributions are ignored or not responded to whereas in the past I have been listened to.
This is no longer about mistakes, it's about my worth in an organisation where I've given everything, worked long hours and never made a big deal about it.
My role was changed without consulting with me. It wasn't a demotion - it was at the same level, same salary, etc. I was told it was happening and there was no discussion about it.
My manager is not talking to me. The next person up is the CEO and does not deal with personnel issues. I have no-on left to talk to about this.
Not wanting to clear the air, not wanting to engage with me on my work all points to being managed out.
This is not a job that you can easily walk away from. But if I feel like I have to be able to take some control in this situation.

Birroc

shouldistayorgo2013 wrote: »

But who hasn't made mistakes in their work? I work in a fast-paced office dealing in complex financial affairs where relationships with corporations are paramount. The relationships that I have responsibility for have been strengthened in the three years since I joined the organisation. They have resulted in major financial gains for my organisation. I need the support of my manager in continuing to strengthen those relationships or else the business will suffer long term. If I can't count on that support the business loses.

Yes everyone makes mistakes and yours don't sound too serious. My company encourages risk which results in "mistakes" but also new opportunities. Don't go around apologising too much - it really doesn't benefit you in a work environment and makes you look weak.
My advice - document exactly how your work has "resulted in major financial gains for my organisation". Document it in a data driven way e.g. Revenue from Customer X 3.5 years ago was €1m, its now €1.25m because I did blah blah blah". Remember all companies are struggling for the past 3.5 years so growth is very good.

At the next performance review or contract review, produce this document and go through it in detail with your manager. Ask him does he disagree with any of your findings. A document like this will actually intimidate him and make him think twice before ending your contract. Demand a performance review if you don't have regular ones.

By the way I believe you have more employment rights when you have worked in a company more than 2 years - contract or permanent. I believe they have to treat you like a permanent employee now. Research this.