Getting into milking

yeller

Uncle is thinking about getting into the milking and was were wondering with say about 45 cows what roughly would be profit per month/year.
I know its a difficult job and you have to be there 24/7 or have someone there but seems that milk prices are on the rise.
All Advice welcome

Sam Kade

20-25k/year with no loans and everything in place.

simx

yeller wrote: »

Uncle is thinking about getting into the milking and was were wondering with say about 45 cows what roughly would be profit per month/year.
I know its a difficult job and you have to be there 24/7 or have someone there but seems that milk prices are on the rise.
All Advice welcome

Prices are on the rise but for how long?
Does he have an exsisting parlour or does he have to start from scratch? How is land quality? How would a bad weather year affect him? How would 3 bad milk price years affect him? Worst case scenarios have to be looked at before profit figures in my book

bbam

I'm not in dairy but I'll throw in my opinion as we farmers like to.

It's not just that each cow makes €x per year.
It's completly dependant on each situation. Farmland, farm layout, sheds, stock and experience.
If You have to borrow to develop land, build a parlour and buy in stock maybe with little or no dairy experience then I'd guess that 40 cows won't leave much if anything for quite a few years.

Ye need to do the sums and evaluate if it's even feasible.

How do you think milk prices will fair post quota ? You'll be competing with lads who are old hat at dairy and ready to increase production at a fraction of the cost you'll be milking cows for.

Do the sums, do them again.
Then do them again with worst case scenario milk prices and maybe include feed prices from 2012/2013 winter spring and see how it looks.

mf240

Everybodys getting into dairying sure theres great money in it. And sure the price is rising and sure it will probably stay rising for ever.


Anybody buy a house lately?:rolleyes:

20silkcut

When it comes to farming do the complete opposite of what every one else is doing.
Now is the time to get out of dairying.

Lambofdave

I think your uncle would be mad to get into dairying. 45 cows as a start maybe ok but not long term, has he got the land to expand in the future from a base of the 45. It is hard enough for existing dairy farmers to expand in certain areas of the country due to the power and might of already larger dairy men.
Milk prices are good for now, and especially welcome when dairy farmers have racked up almighty debts, due to the one thing food harvest 2020 didn't take into account the abysmal summers Ireland can have and food shortages which followed.

Timmaay

I think bbam has the right idea here, tell him to do his sums inside out. But we don't have 1/2 enough info to say if it's the right idea in your uncles case, if he's just looking at 45cows as a start point with land for say 80longterm, say has a fair bit of infrastructure, like paddocks/water/sheds etc already, and likes of a suckers herd that would fund a good part of the dairy herd, then the whole idea actually be a runner. But if he's just abit of an "ah sure" farmer with afew sucklers lightly stocked etc now, on a small enough landbase that can only milk the 45cows max, then definitely not a good idea. The final thing also, unless he has a good handle on grassland management now, or is at the very least fully willing to actually implement this moving forward, then he is utterly wasting his time switching.

MFdaveIreland

here is my pennys worth.

There are a hell of a lot of people jumping into dairying because they are seeing the current milk prices etc.

i know a few that have went into dairying and have realised, 'damn', i actually have to milk twice a day 7 days a week for the forseeable future.

like any market, the more people that enter it, the more the balance of drought, to saturation occurs, and thus the balance and ratio of supply and demand is also altered.

i suppose the argument could be said, that sure there a people getting out, there may be a balance , yet anyone in dairying currently are upping cow numbers to make it viable.

a lot to think about, but i could be wrong.

F.D

Not for or against going into milk once the homework has been done..
But from my point of view we are finishing cattle off grass and have some corn
we have nothing only money going out all year and nothing coming in
then, with that you are hoping prices stay up when the flood of cattle hits the market and hoping for a weather disaster somewhere else in the world to achieve a good grain price, with the hope we have a little profit at the end, and then the cycle begins again going out to buy stock to replace whats gone

I can see the merits of dairying Cash flow every month to cover the costs going out Stock available at all the time, be it replacements or stock for selling

Fair enough it take investment, what business dosen't and even at 20.c a ltr i think he will be making more money that what ever farming he is doing now and a herd that size will not over stress you and leave you with free time if he is doing a part time job

grazeaway

Timmaay wrote: »

I think bbam has the right idea here, tell him to do his sums inside out. But we don't have 1/2 enough info to say if it's the right idea in your uncles case, if he's just looking at 45cows as a start point with land for say 80longterm, say has a fair bit of infrastructure, like paddocks/water/sheds etc already, and likes of a suckers herd that would fund a good part of the dairy herd, then the whole idea actually be a runner. But if he's just abit of an "ah sure" farmer with afew sucklers lightly stocked etc now, on a small enough landbase that can only milk the 45cows max, then definitely not a good idea. The final thing also, unless he has a good handle on grassland management now, or is at the very least fully willing to actually implement this moving forward, then he is utterly wasting his time switching.

Timmaay has it spot on.

it all depends on wjat your uncles backround is in farming and what the farm has to begin with.

The 1st thing to look at is not profit per/cow but how much will it cost to get to place where he can milk enough cows to pay down the costs.

if he already has the infrastruce in place for 45 cows, slurry storage, housing, paddocks, roadways, good grass, water and good herdmanship skills then it might be a goer. he would then be looking at building a parlour and buying in stock.

startign at 45 cows is very managable and depnding on the land base and infrasturce in place 1 person can manage 80 cows in the same time as 45.

as a few lads have done here already the the cost of buildign a new parlour could be 70k.

also there is the lifestyle change, in a convential system cows need to be milkedd twice a day everyday from feb to nov. can he and will he do that, how much will a relif milker cost him and can he absorb that cost.

what he needs to look at is where is he now and where he needs to be and what is the cost to get to that stage, then look at the revenue that can be generated misus the ongoign costs and then seeing if it is viable.

it is only in the last couple of weeks that my dad and i have managed to talk one of my friends OUT of getting into dairy. he has a good farm currently in a mix of tillage and drystock, road way going through it to most fields and plenty of water troughs dotted around the place. in order to get into milking we would have to build a new parlour and dairy, double the existing slurry storage, put in new housing for cows, re-fence every field, put in about 500m of roadway, begin a reseeding program to convert his tillage land to grass as most of his grassland now is hilly and some of the paddocks are getting old, and as he is workign full time will need to have to pay a relif milker for at least have the milkings. That a huge amount of work to start with never mind on an ongoing basis

Mulumpy

Theres plenty of efficient 45 cow herds out there making a lot more money than lads on 80 cows plus that are debt riddled. It all depends on the lifestyle u want. There no point in getting into dairy for the money. Ya need a passion for it

MFdaveIreland

Mulumpy wrote: »

Theres plenty of efficient 45 cow herds out there making a lot more money than lads on 80 cows plus that are debt riddled. It all depends on the lifestyle u want. There no point in getting into dairy for the money. Ya need a passion for it

spot on. unless you want to do it from the start, irrespective of profit, then you will prob not stick at it. if you have a real passion for it, assuming your not totally useless, you can make a living at it.

bob charles

mf240 wrote: »

Everybodys getting into dairying sure theres great money in it. And sure the price is rising and sure it will probably stay rising for ever.


Anybody buy a house lately?:rolleyes:

Yeah its great news, im thinking of selling the cattle and just buying as many cows as I can. Sure I cant lose in a rising market.

yellow50HX

i hate raining on peoples parade but as all the dairy lads on here will tell you, dairying is very much a vocation. yes there higher revenues to be got from it but also higher needs too. another thing is that its a long term type of farming, unlike say dry stock one cant simply make whole sale changes every 2-3 years. if your in you are tied into it.

what is your uncle farming? what kind of farm has and potentially how many cows can he milk?
what is the farm set up at present? how much work will he need to do to get the farm ready for cows?
what kind of experience does he have of cows?
is he full time farming now and looking move part of his farm to dairy?

i was chatting to one of cousins during the week. we are the same age and pretty much in the same place in our lives too with young families and farming part time with sucklers. we both grew up o dairy farms and both farms could be converted back to dairy relatively easily. we both estimate that we could get a 40-50 head dairy herd back and milking for about 100k as much of the infrastruce is in place. the thing is that in order to do that we would still need to stay working full time. if we are working full time then there wont be time to milk and manage the dairy herd. the option to go OAD milking would be an option but paying a relief milker may still be required. as it is with sucklers our time is fairly tight, between work and the farm i work about 60hrs a week, can get it down to about 55 in the summer but it could be over 70 or 80 during the winter and calving seasons. My dad does do a fair bit too but i cant expect him to be working at his age. so i have to see am i prepared to sacrifice my family and private live to milk cows and the answer is no.

what i can see happening in a few years is more part time lads like me getting into partnerships with neighbouring farms. provided you can work together then 2 or 3 people can split the work load and combine their resources to have a viable farm. i know of two brothers and their neighbour who have gone into partnership. they were all working full time and part time farming. To make the whole lot work they have taken on a farm manger to runs the dairy farm and they actually take turns to do the evening and weekend milking and provide additional labour. they are all still working fulltime while still having an active role on the farm. one of the lads told me even after taking out the managers wages he is making more money from the farm with half the amount of work.

Timmaay

20silkcut wrote: »

When it comes to farming do the complete opposite of what every one else is doing.
Now is the time to get out of dairying.

bob charles wrote: »

Yeah its great news, im thinking of selling the cattle and just buying as many cows as I can. Sure I cant lose in a rising market.

I get your main points here of there is always a risk, but 2bh I'd take my chances in a rising market most of the time, I know plenty of normal joe soaps who invested in property during the celtic tiger, and did extremely well for themselves, ultimately the crash was the fault of a totally overheated market, dodgy bank practices, and people going crazy using leverage to fund properties (double mortgages etc), but the lads who got into afew investments etc but still stayed "relatively" safe and didn't stretch themselves to the max mostly did fairly well, and are still much better off now as a result of it.

Looking at the current dairyboom, I'd take my chances in it rather than switching over to beef etc. Assuming everything we talked about previously does all stack up (the person getting in being comfortable with the lifestyle change,a good part of the infrastructure in place, and a good chunk of capital to start out), now does most certainly appear to be a very good time to get in, cows/calves and maiden heifers are still very cheap, and quite plentiful (just think back to 2011, the price of cows was insane then!), I personally can't see the market getting any lower. Come 2014/15, farmers wont mind holding on to the stock and going over quota to have themselves setup for 2015 (arguably the wrong way about it, if there is a big superlevy, and poor milk price, but lets face it, its in most peoples nature to be greedy and try maximise a situation as such!), so I can't see the price of cows going any lower.

nashmach

No one has asked what age is the uncle?

Big difference between a fifty year old and a thirty year old getting into milk I would have said.

delaval

nashmach wrote: »

No one has asked what age is the uncle?

Big difference between a fifty year old and a thirty year old getting into milk I would have said.

Whats age got to do with it? It's just a state of mind!!!!

bbam

delaval wrote: »

Whats age got to do with it? It's just a state of mind!!!!

Handy though if had it all set up and passes it on

nashmach

delaval wrote: »

Whats age got to do with it? It's just a state of mind!!!!

It has a lot to do with it if you need to go to a bank for a loan for example.

Is a 50 year old as active as a 30 year old - no.

Will a 50 year old be as open to new ideas as a 30 year old -???

Just saying

kerryjack

nashmach wrote: »

No one has asked what age is the uncle?

Big difference between a fifty year old and a thirty year old getting into milk I would have said.

I think dairying might suit a more mature lad in his 30s ands 40s than a young lad in his 20s I know myself when your young you are stuck to the bed in morning after night outs on the tear or away playing football and so on and it gets a lot easier as you get on a bit, 45 cows is a very manageable number on your own and like all farms if well managed you will not be killed with work I know plenty dairy farmers that size and some work 80 hours a week and some are on the golf course at 9 in the morning its up to yourself.

Sam Kade

nashmach wrote: »

No one has asked what age is the uncle?

Big difference between a fifty year old and a thirty year old getting into milk I would have said.

Lots of different questions asked but he hasn't come back to answer them yet. I know plenty 50 year olds and older still milking cows even a few touching 80 still milking:eek: which makes a 50 year old seem like a young fella.

RobertKK

To get into dairying, you have to like milking cows and remember that when you are in dairying that you are married to your cows...

cosatron

can i ask one question- how many of the dairy farmers here started from scratch or inherited it from there father. i work along side my dad and will eventually take over and im used it and know what to expect, i think allot of lads haven't a clue whats ahead of them if there thinking of getting into milking. Plus my dad always says stick to what you know cause your year will come and this year is a milk year.

kerryjack

RobertKK wrote: »

To get into dairying, you have to like milking cows and remember that when you are in dairying that you are married to your cows...

sometimes the cows outside can be nicer than the cow inside the house

Sam Kade

kerryjack wrote: »

sometimes the cows outside can be nicer than the cow inside the house

Just introduce the cow inside the house to the cows outside

delaval

20silkcut wrote: »

When it comes to farming do the complete opposite of what every one else is doing.
Now is the time to get out of dairying.

Complete nonsence

delaval

MFdaveIreland wrote: »

here is my pennys worth.

There are a hell of a lot of people jumping into dairying because they are seeing the current milk prices etc.

i know a few that have went into dairying and have realised, 'damn', i actually have to milk twice a day 7 days a week for the forseeable future.

like any market, the more people that enter it, the more the balance of drought, to saturation occurs, and thus the balance and ratio of supply and demand is also altered.

i suppose the argument could be said, that sure there a people getting out, there may be a balance , yet anyone in dairying currently are upping cow numbers to make it viable.

a lot to think about, but i could be wrong.

On the first hilighted bit, they should get out asap as they can't do the basic plan.

On the second, we have this notion that if there is a rush into milk post 15 that price will fall complete and utter nonsence. In 09 we had quotas and price hit a record low.
If any one thinks we have even the slightest influence on world price they are sorely mistaken. There are processors world wide that have a bigger milk pool than Ireland has.

Grain price drives milk price, end of

yeller

Sam Kade wrote: »

20-25k/year with no loans and everything in place.

Hi, how do you come to get 20-25k per year he thought it would be alot more than that, can you explain please

Milked out

yeller wrote: »

Hi, how do you come to get 20-25k per year he thought it would be alot more than that, can you explain please

45 cows by 6000 litres = 270000litres - by 10c profit is 27k

Sam Kade

yeller wrote: »

Hi, how do you come to get 20-25k per year he thought it would be alot more than that, can you explain please

I just took an average profit of 40 cent/gallon, you might make more with present milk price but that will change from year to year.

Milked out

It can be done but a certain amount of the infrastructure would need to be already in place to reduce the capital requirement. If you had to borrow heavily to get it up and running you may get by on a good year but at that scale it would be difficult to generate enough cash to hold onto to buffer for the low price years, not to mind if something else goes wrong such as weather, etc.
The price at the moment looks great but its only just about covering the extra feed cost from the spring, if that. I had matched last years entire ration bill by the end of june this year, and that was no small bill.
Only the man himself knows all the details of his farm/ situation, I'd advise to get on to an ag. advisor, find out what his farm can manage in terms of grass and stocking rate, what it needs in order to get going effiently, and do realistic figures for himself, not the bank, and run thru the various scenarios that can occur. only then will he have an idea if it's a runner

signinlate

American milk price from 1910 to 2009.http://www.cce.cornell.edu/Ag/ProductionAgriculture/Documents/Milk%20Prices%20Changes-100%20yrs.pdf

yeller

Sam Kade wrote: »

I just took an average profit of 40 cent/gallon, you might make more with present milk price but that will change from year to year.

oh ok, was lookin at the thread of milk prices and this was posted.

Arrabawn supplier price 37.12c a litre at 4.25 fat and 3.31 protein.


so thats per gallon not per litre then

Milked out

yeller wrote: »

oh ok, was lookin at the thread of milk prices and this was posted.

Arrabawn supplier price 37.12c a litre at 4.25 fat and 3.31 protein.


so thats per gallon not per litre then

The prices in that thread are what people are getting from their co-ops, not the profit. All costs, drawings, your wages, repayments, tax, etc must come from that figure

delaval

yellow50HX wrote: »

i hate raining on peoples parade but as all the dairy lads on here will tell you, dairying is very much a vocation. yes there higher revenues to be got from it but also higher needs too. another thing is that its a long term type of farming, unlike say dry stock one cant simply make whole sale changes every 2-3 years. if your in you are tied into it.

what is your uncle farming? what kind of farm has and potentially how many cows can he milk?
what is the farm set up at present? how much work will he need to do to get the farm ready for cows?
what kind of experience does he have of cows?
is he full time farming now and looking move part of his farm to dairy?

i was chatting to one of cousins during the week. we are the same age and pretty much in the same place in our lives too with young families and farming part time with sucklers. we both grew up o dairy farms and both farms could be converted back to dairy relatively easily. we both estimate that we could get a 40-50 head dairy herd back and milking for about 100k as much of the infrastruce is in place. the thing is that in order to do that we would still need to stay working full time. if we are working full time then there wont be time to milk and manage the dairy herd. the option to go OAD milking would be an option but paying a relief milker may still be required. as it is with sucklers our time is fairly tight, between work and the farm i work about 60hrs a week, can get it down to about 55 in the summer but it could be over 70 or 80 during the winter and calving seasons. My dad does do a fair bit too but i cant expect him to be working at his age. so i have to see am i prepared to sacrifice my family and private live to milk cows and the answer is no.

what i can see happening in a few years is more part time lads like me getting into partnerships with neighbouring farms. provided you can work together then 2 or 3 people can split the work load and combine their resources to have a viable farm. i know of two brothers and their neighbour who have gone into partnership. they were all working full time and part time farming. To make the whole lot work they have taken on a farm manger to runs the dairy farm and they actually take turns to do the evening and weekend milking and provide additional labour. they are all still working fulltime while still having an active role on the farm. one of the lads told me even after taking out the managers wages he is making more money from the farm with half the amount of work.

OP answer whats highlighted and we may be able to give a view

yeller

actually thought it would be more profitable, he has the buildings that sorted...