Changing dynamic?

kylith

Has anyone in a multi-dog household experienced a change in dynamics with their dogs as one has aged? My Rani is getting on a bit now; she's still healthy as a horse and loves her walks but she just move as fast these days. That's expected.

What I wasn't really expecting is an increase in tension between her and Tegan over the last few months. They've had the odd scrap over the last 5 years they've been with me, maybe one every 18 months and never anything serious. I wouldn't say they've ever been best friends, I've always described their relationship as more 'spinster daughter living with widowed mother'; they both just want peace and quiet, food, and a sofa to sleep on.

Recently I've noticed T standing in such a way as to block Ra's path. She goes out of her way to do it too, even getting out of bed to block Ra's access to the garden. There's sometimes a curled lip, but mostly it's just silent standing. When one comes in from outside they manoeuvre around each other like a pair of dogs who didn't know each other would, stiff and formal. Sometimes you can feel the tension in the air, you know what I mean.

I'll interrupt* if I think the tension might be getting to a tipping point but most of the time I try to keep out of it on the basis that they know what's going on and I can only guess. I was wondering if it's a sign that T has noticed Ra is no longer as spry as she was and is looking to oust the Tiny Tyrant. I'm a little worried about it because I know that if bitches fall out it can become a long-standing grudge and I don't know what I'd do if it got to that point. Can anyone advise me on the situation?

* I interrupt in a 'Hey, I've just remembered I have treats' way rather than a 'I am annoyed by your behaviour' way.

DBB

Has the older lady had a full vet check done anytime recently, by which I mean bloods, urine, also joints, teeth etc?

kylith

Yes, she went for a full work up a couple of months ago in Charlemont after her regular check up indicated a possible heart murmur. They kept her in for a day, took blood and urine, checked everything and declared that she has no heart problems and is in fantastic shape for a ~13 year old. The only change in her physically is that she's now lagging behind on walks.

ETA: as far as we know the dogs aren't related. They both came from the same rescue, but had arrived there separately; Ra as a stray, T as a surrender (cruelty case, imo).

TooManyDogs

I've had similar at home, not so much one blocking the older one going places but more the younger one lifting a lip if the older one approached, and there was a dust up one of the days I was out of the house. My then 14 year old had perfect blood tests also but i suspected a bit of dementia, and my younger dog was freaked out because my old girl wasn't acting the same anymore. The changes in Phanty were subtle but enough to freak out Wiley. Now I make sure they're not left alone together or not forced to be in close proximity because its when Wiley is blocked in and phanty approaches that it kicks off

kylith

That's interesting TMD. I don't know what the symptoms of it would be, would any of these fit?

She'll start barking for no reason; i.e. she'll be in bed asleep, then start barking and run into the garden. We put it down to her dreaming.
She licks air sometimes.
Sometimes she stands in the middle of the room for no apparent reason, looking sorry for herself.
She is obsessive about licking people. One of my friends describes it as 'creepy'. It's a constant, steady lick, lick, lick and her eyes are kind of glazed while she does it. I've been blaming OH for letting her lick his fingers when he's been eating crisps for giving her the habit.

She doesn't seem what I suppose you could call Gaga at all. She knows what time it is better than the humans in the house and lets you know when it's time for food or a walk. She comes when called, within reason (she's a terrier after all). She doesn't have much of an attention span when training, but she never has had when there's food around, and she has no problem remembering she's not supposed to be in the kitchen.

TooManyDogs

kylith wrote: »

That's interesting TMD. I don't know what the symptoms of it would be, would any of these fit?

She'll start barking for no reason; i.e. she'll be in bed asleep, then start barking and run into the garden. We put it down to her dreaming.
She licks air sometimes.
Sometimes she stands in the middle of the room for no apparent reason, looking sorry for herself.
She is obsessive about licking people. One of my friends describes it as 'creepy'. It's a constant, steady lick, lick, lick and her eyes are kind of glazed while she does it. I've been blaming OH for letting her lick his fingers when he's been eating crisps for giving her the habit.

To be honest that sounds very like my Phanty Nothing major you could point to but lots of things just not quite 100% right. So she looks like Phanty and smells like Phanty she's not acting 100% like Phanty and that's what freaks Wiley out, like there's an impostor in Phanty's body. Myself and DBB were chatting about it about a year ago. Phanty is 15 now and situation is very well managed and no further trouble

DBB

TMD is giving an example of what I was getting at... I don't know how many times I've seen younger dogs becoming more pushy or aggressive with older dogs, even when they know each other well, due to their being some sort of medical issue with the older dog.
Some of the behaviours you describe could be attributed to early Canine Cognitive Dementia, particularly if they're new behaviours, but they could also be due to encroaching sensory deprivation (sight or hearing). Air-licking, I feel, can be a sign that the dog is feeling a little uncomfortable, whether physically or mentally. A vet nurse friend of mine thinks it's dye to indigestion, because it's often accompanied by a gurgly throaty sound just before the licking starts... That is assuming your dog is doing the sort of air licking I have in mind!
There's little doubt too that dogs can detect when another dog isn't at their physical peak, by different and often subtle behavioural cues, but also by smell, something we'll never perceive.
It's great that the older lady got a clean bill of health, it's great to now have a baseline to work from. But older dogs need vigilant monitoring as they can change within days or weeks. I've little doubt you're being vigilant, but try to see can you spot any nuances or preludes that happen just before one of the incidents you described, where the younger lady is sort of standing-off against the older lady.

DBB

TooManyDogs wrote: »

So she looks like Phanty and smells like Phanty she's not acting 100% like Phanty and that's what freaks Wiley out, like there's an impostor in Phanty's body.

That's a really good way of putting it! Must remember it! ;-)

kylith

Thanks folks, what you're saying makes a lot of sense.

When she licks air I haven't noticed any stomach rumblings, she just sits on the mat, stares into the middle distance, and flicks her tongue in and out for a few minutes at a time. There doesn't appear to be anything wrong with her hearing (she can hear me moving about upstairs well enough to be out of the kitchen by the time I come down) or her sight (can spot a cat from 25m). The licking air started maybe a year ago, the licking hands a bit longer.

The impostor thing kind of makes sense. If Ra isn't quite herself T is more likely to pick up on it than me since she's, well, a dog and therefore better at dog communication than I am, and I suppose any change would be like if my mother suddenly started to act oddly; it looks like her, it acts like her, it acts pretty much like her, but something's off.

DBB, you've hit the nail on the head; T is pushier and more assertive, though not aggressive. She snapped at Ra last night when Ra went to push in for rubs, and I was wondering if it meant 'you've been shoving me out of the way for years, I'm not putting up with it now I'm the stronger one'.

I'll try get some of it on video if I can.

aonb

Kylith, your description of your two dogs behaviour sounds incredibly like my two. I have a 15 year old and a 2 year old, both JRTs. The young dog has always deferred to the old dog. In the last year or two the old dog is showing signs of canine dementia - only on bad days - lots of the symptoms you describe: suddenly jumping up/rushing about, glazed look on his face as he stands/sits in the middle of the room, hes started that endless licking lately too, a little deafness and cataracts starting, but generally v. well & healthy (has digestive probs that we try to keep on top of. Thankfully like your old girl, he can still see a cat, hear us call for dinner and chase the odd rabbit (briefly).

But Ive noticed the young dog standing in front of the old dog blocking his path, curling his lip at him now and then etc. When the old dog is having a 'dementia day' the young dog is DEFINATELY aware of some difference/change in the old dog. It unsettles him and makes him worried - hes not up for the top dog slot yet :rolleyes: The young dog is v.inferior personality & intelligence-wise and has always 'followed' the older dog, but in the last few weeks Ive noticed that this is not so much the case.

On 'dementia days' we leave our old dog to sleep as much as he wants, dont take him for walks, give him extra treats (hes food obsessed, and seems to get stressed about food - begging etc) and just keep an eye on the young dog in case hes being rough/aggressive.

As I type this, I can hear the two of them are chasing each other around a table in the other room, play-fighting over a rag that used to be a teddy bear

DBB

kylith wrote: »

When she licks air I haven't noticed any stomach rumblings, she just sits on the mat, stares into the middle distance, and flicks her tongue in and out for a few minutes at a time.

It's not tummy rumbling. It's more like a small burp, the sort you do just after eating? Does that make sense. My friend wonders if it's stomach acid bubbling back up, which kinda causes the dog to go "ooh, that's a bit uncomfortable".

She snapped at Ra last night when Ra went to push in for rubs, and I was wondering if it meant 'you've been shoving me out of the way for years, I'm not putting up with it now I'm the stronger one'.

I wouldn't be inclined to think that it's a sort of revenge, I think it's more likely to be more of a "Ewww... who the hell are you? You look like Rani, but you don't smell/behave like her.. feckoff!"

ineedabreak

I have the opposite problem. I have two dogs a Border Collie called Molly (13 years old) and a Welsh Sheepdog called Shadow(6 years old) Molly will stop Shadow from walking, corner her in a room and start fights with her. It was getting to the point where Molly had Shadow by the throat on the ground. The last straw was when we had to pries Molly's mouth from Shadow's throat. Due to it, Shadow became petrified of Molly. We got professional help twice. Didn't work. It happens only in the Kitchen and Dining-Room. The solution was to put Molly's bed in the hall and leave Shadow where she is. Our vet suggested banning Molly permanently from both rooms. Problem solved.

Both are fine on walks and in the car. Will tolerate each other in the sitting room. No problems with humans or other dogs

kylith

DBB wrote: »

It's not tummy rumbling. It's more like a small burp, the sort you do just after eating? Does that make sense. My friend wonders if it's stomach acid bubbling back up, which kinda causes the dog to go "ooh, that's a bit uncomfortable".

I see what you mean. I haven't noticed anything like that.

I wouldn't be inclined to think that it's a sort of revenge, I think it's more likely to be more of a "Ewww... who the hell are you? You look like Rani, but you don't smell/behave like her.. feckoff!"

I don't think it's any kind of revenge, more that she's sensing a weakness in the alpha dog. To be clear, I don't support any kind of dominance based thinking; when I say alpha dog I'm strictly talking about the pecking order between the pair of them - Rani has always been the boss, and if Rani isn't capable of being the boss any more then Tegan is most likely going to take over the role. It could well be that changes in Rani's behaviour I haven't noticed yet are causing Tegan to behave like this toward her. I'm still keeping an eye on them and will try get it on tape if I can.