New Haswell build

zilog_jones

I'm looking at a new build with a budget of about €800.

I already have the following:
- Radeon HD7850
- Samsung 830 SSD 128GB
- Optical drive, monitor, peripherals

I'm looking at getting the following:
- Core i5-4670K
- Asus Z87-A motherboard
- Fractal Define R4 case
- Seasonic M12II-620 PSU
- Thermalright Silver Arrow cooler
- 16GB DDR3-1600 RAM, Corsair Vengeance or whatever
- Seagate Barracuda 3 TB HDD (ST3000DM001)

This totals about £700 on Amazon.co.uk (free shipping, no funny Marketplace stuff), which is about €820.

Do these look like good choices? I'm looking for a quiet enough PC, after having years of noise issues with this old yoke (you couldn't get a decent case for <€100 back in 2006 ). I've been out of the loop for quite a while so not sure if I've made some terrible choices above.

I will be overclocking.

I know I could probably save on HWVS but couldn't be arsed with the awkward payment.

Gumbi

zilog_jones wrote: »

I'm looking at a new build with a budget of about €800.

I already have the following:
- Radeon HD7850
- Samsung 830 SSD 128GB
- Optical drive, monitor, peripherals

I'm looking at getting the following:
- Core i5-4670K
- Asus Z87-A motherboard
- Fractal Define R4 case
- Seasonic M12II-620 PSU
- Thermalright Silver Arrow cooler
- 16GB DDR3-1600 RAM, Corsair Vengeance or whatever
- Seagate Barracuda 3 TB HDD (ST3000DM001)

This totals about £700 on Amazon.co.uk (free shipping, no funny Marketplace stuff), which is about €820.

Do these look like good choices? I'm looking for a quiet enough PC, after having years of noise issues with this old yoke (you couldn't get a decent case for <€100 back in 2006 ). I've been out of the loop for quite a while so not sure if I've made some terrible choices above.

I know I could probably save on HWVS but couldn't be arsed with the awkward payment.

What will you be using the rig for? If gaming, you made some pretty poor choices. I would definitely buy from HWVS, you will save A LOT of money. I paid by PayPal last I sued them (a month ago).

zilog_jones

I'll be using it for some gaming but also video encoding and other stuff. What changes would you recommend? I have no plans to change the graphics card. I can already play a lot of the games I have at decent framerates at 1920x1080 with my Q6600, it's just those few that are CPU hogs that suffer.

I just tried HWVS there for the same items and it's actually more - €841 vs. €821 on Amazon. What are they like for RMAs?

Gumbi

zilog_jones wrote: »

I'll be using it for some gaming but also video encoding and other stuff. What changes would you recommend? I have no plans to change the graphics card. I can already play a lot of the games I have at decent framerates at 1920x1080 with my Q6600, it's just those few that are CPU hogs that suffer.

What are HWVS like for dealing with RMAs?

They are reasonable. You must do it through phone though, their email service is too slow. Amazon would def have the upper hand here though.

Monotype

You don't need a PSU that powerful.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Seasonic-S12II-520-ATX12V-Standard-Supply/dp/B00390P1NO/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Corsair-Builder-Series-Modular-Certified/dp/B00ALK1GFC/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Quiet-Straight-Power-500W/dp/B005LUXLO6

Hardwareversand can win out in selection - e.g., a Seasonic PSU might be dearer, but they stock PSUs like Superflower and XFX which still give you quality for cheap.

zilog_jones

Thanks. Do you know how the Corsair and Be Quiet compare with regards to noise levels? I would like some overhead as I'll probably have this machine for 6-7 years like my current one.

I think I'll stick to Amazon for the customer service advantage. Call me a pessimist but I've had to deal with a few RMAs in my time (even the HD7850 was a warranty replacement for a HD6870).

I also noticed the Gigabyte Z87X-D3H is a similar price to the Asus Z87-A - it has less PCI slots and more PCIe (I only need one PCI slot anyway), Intel instead of Realtek Ethernet controller, and apparently the VRMs are slightly better but besides that it's much of a muchness from what I can see. Anything I should watch out for? I don't have a preference brand-wise.

54kroc

I'd highly recommend the Seasonic S12II-520 linked above, more than enough power for what you need and whisper quiet.

Monotype

That particular is Be Quiet one is a high grade one - quiet, 5 year warranty, gold efficiency and badged Haswell compatible (doesn't mean a whole lot but supports low power states).
The corsair is good for the money - semi modular, bronze efficiency (nearly at silver by some tests). The consensus seems to be that it's fairly quiet - which is usually an indication, going by PSUs in the last few years, that's it's quieter than other components in the case.

There's extra USB 3 ports on the gigabyte and a minidisplayport connector on the Asus, if that makes any difference.

http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=4518#sp
https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Z87A/

Just pick the one that you like the look of better if there's no feature there to your advantage. There's also an Asrock Extreme3 for similar price.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/ASRock-Z87-EXTREME3-Motherboard-Generation/dp/B00D1COG4A/

There's also this cheaper gigabyte:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gigabyte-Motherboard-4th-Generation-Intel-Core-Processors/dp/B00CXK59S8
or this MSI:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/MSI-Z87-G43-Motherboard-USB3-0-LGA1150/dp/B00CXOMGGW

zilog_jones

The Seasonic M12II seems to use better quality caps than the Be Quiet E9 and the Corsair, so I think I might stick with that.

Those other three motherboards seem to have lower spec VRM setups - 4 phases vs. 8 in the Gigabyte Z87X-D3H and Asus Z87-A. I think the 8-phase systems look like a decent middle-ground between price and diminishing returns. I think I'll go with the Z87X-D3H as it meets my requirements and some reviews favour the BIOS/overclocking usability over the Z87-A.

I hear a lot of mentions of the Noctua NH-D14 cooler as well - anyone know how this compares to the Thermalright Silver Arrow SB-E? Not sure there's enough difference between the two to justify the extra cost.

Gumbi

The SB-E is the better cooler. The fans on it are very loud at max, though, they push an ton of air.

zilog_jones

After seeing this picture I take it I best stick to "low-profile" DIMMs?

Monotype

Corsair do a low profile version of their vengence. The gskill ripjaws RAM fits under most heatsinks from what I've seen and if you are desperate, you can usually move the offending fan to the opposite side. If you need 16GB of RAM, try to get 2x8GB as well so that you have less RAM to fit in.

zilog_jones

Yeah I was looking at 2x8GB Corsair Vengeance Low Profile.

What's the deal with memory in relation to CPU clock speeds these days? Does the FSB clock not exist any more? I don't see any mention of it in the CPU specs.

Monotype

Most overclocking is done on the multiplier. Haswell has brought back the FSB/BCLK to a certain extent from what I've heard, but I haven't read into it much.
As for RAM speeds - performance has been near identical for anything above 1333MHz, unless you overclock, for the past few generations. When you overclock the CPU, higher speed does become more important (not because of balancing out due to FSB overclock, but because of higher bandwidth demands on the RAM), but I haven't seen any reviews delving into this area for Haswell yet. 1600MHz RAM is usually a good price point to go for and unless there's a fantastic deal where the next one up is just a few cents more, then that's fine.

Gumbi

Monotype wrote: »

Most overclocking is done on the multiplier. Haswell has brought back the FSB/BCLK to a certain extent from what I've heard, but I haven't read into it much.
As for RAM speeds - performance has been near identical for anything above 1333MHz, unless you overclock, for the past few generations. When you overclock the CPU, higher speed does become more important (not because of balancing out due to FSB overclock, but because of higher bandwidth demands on the RAM), but I haven't seen any reviews delving into this area for Haswell yet. 1600MHz RAM is usually a good price point to go for and unless there's a fantastic deal where the next one up is just a few cents more, then that's fine.

This is true for the most part. I have been experimenting with someone, though, and benchmarking for Starcraft II, a heavily CPU limited game. RAM overclocks can raise minimum frame rates by as much as 15%.

zilog_jones

Thanks for the help. In the end I went for:

- i5-4670K
- Gigabyte Z87X-D3H
- Seasonic M12II-620W (520W wasn't in stock)
- Corsair Vengeance LP 2x8GB DDR3-1600 DIMMs
- Fractal Design Define R4
- Thermalright Silver Arrow SB-E
- Seagate Barracuda 3 TB HDD (ST3000DM001)

I got everything this week and it seems to be stable at stock speeds. However I'm not too sure about the CPU temps - with IBT (Linpack) I'm getting around 72-74 degrees, and 64-69 with Prime95 (small FFTs). I know Haswells are supposed to be pretty hot, but is this normal for stock speeds (3.8GHz turbo, Vcore about 1.2V) with a cooler like this? All fans are at 100% when doing this (using SpeedFan after finally learning how to use PWM controllers with it).

I'm pretty happy with everything else.

BloodBath

I wouldn't even bother using IBT at all. It stresses cpus way more than the majority of programs ever will.

Your prime temps are high for stock speeds though. Is it mounted properly?

How many case fans do you have? How's the cable management?

Good case airflow can change temps by 10-15c

zilog_jones

I think the motherboard's default "auto" Vcore setting may be a bit aggressive. I've forced it to 1.2V and increased the the multiplier to 42 and the temps are barely any different - 71-77 in IBT and 68-72 in Prime95. It seems stable so far. I tried 45 but it blue-screened immediately

The case has two 140mm fans (no PWM) and the cooler has a 140 and 150mm fan (both PWM). The front fan is in the lower position (in front of the lower three 3.5" bays and I removed the five extra 3.5" bays in the middle.

I got nearly all the cabling around the back, except for a big old stupid IDE cable (round type) going between my old DVD drive and a PCIe IDE controller card.

TBH I'm not certain if it's mounted properly, that cooler was a pig to install and it would have been impossible (while the mobo was installed in the case) if I didn't have a crazy long 150mm screwdriver. The instructions said to apply thermal paste to both surfaces and spread evenly - is this what people do these days?

Idle is around 30 degrees.

BloodBath

Would you not ditch that old dvd drive in a new build. They cost €12....

I'd add at least 2 more case fans as well. It's silly spending that kind of money on a cpu cooler then running 2 case fans. I'd go with 3 intakes and 2 exhausts.

Don't overdo it with paste. Less is more. It's only there to fill the microscopic pits and holes in the surfaces and any slightly uneven parts. I usually just spread it very thinly with a plastic card or bag on my finger to both surfaces. I'd say it's fine though.

zilog_jones

BloodBath wrote: »

Would you not ditch that old dvd drive in a new build. They cost €12....

I have a requirement for something that can burn CD-Rs with decent quality. This NEC drive has served me well for 8 years and does what I need. I'm really not sure these new cheap drives could do the same; they often don't allow burning at low speeds and they're usually quite flimsy.

I'd add at least 2 more case fans as well. It's silly spending that kind of money on a cpu cooler then running 2 case fans. I'd go with 3 intakes and 2 exhausts.

There's only two slots at the front and one at the back, so I'm not sure how I would achieve that. They are 140mm fans now. There are slots at the top but aren't they more for liquid cooling?

Don't overdo it with paste. Less is more. It's only there to fill the microscopic pits and holes in the surfaces and any slightly uneven parts. I usually just spread it very thinly with a plastic card or bag on my finger to both surfaces. I'd say it's fine though.

I spread it thinly with a card, but maybe not so evenly. I might try again. Regarding the "less is more" thing, isn't all the excess going to get squeezed out the sides anyway once the heatsink is secured?

EDIT: I started getting graphical corruption in Chrome and my PC froze when I posted this (running IBT at the same time). I guess it's not so stable at 4.2 GHz...

BloodBath

I have a requirement for something that can burn CD-Rs with decent quality. This NEC drive has served me well for 8 years and does what I need. I'm really not sure these new cheap drives could do the same; they often don't allow burning at low speeds and they're usually quite flimsy.

A €20-25 drive would do the same but whatever. If you wanted to save money it's cool.

There's only two slots at the front and one at the back, so I'm not sure how I would achieve that. They are 140mm fans now. There are slots at the top but aren't they more for liquid cooling?

There should be a slot on the bottom and/or side for another intake. I'd put another intake in the front and 1 in the bottom or side. Then a second exhaust in the rear top. They aren't just for liquid cooling. Maintaining a good fresh airflow and quickly removing exhausted heat will improve temps on your cpu and gpu.

Do yourself a favor and stop using IBT. It is not an accurate representation of pc loads at all. I wouldn't bother remounting the cooler either. It sounds like you did it right.

zilog_jones

BloodBath wrote: »

A €20-25 drive would do the same but whatever. If you wanted to save money it's cool.

I couldn't find any information that suggests they would do the same. New DVD/CD drives are a complete unknown to me and no one cares about reviewing them any more

There should be a slot on the bottom and/or side for another intake. I'd put another intake in the front and 1 in the bottom or side. Then a second exhaust in the rear top. They aren't just for liquid cooling. Maintaining a good fresh airflow and quickly removing exhausted heat will improve temps on your cpu and gpu.

All the other temps seem reasonable though, and I've seen other people getting similar results with Haswell chips.

Do yourself a favor and stop using IBT. It is not an accurate representation of pc loads at all.

I know it's not, but sure isn't that the point in stress testing? I'm using it to test stability more than anything else and Linpack clearly is more demanding than Prime95.

game4it70

Are you sure it was 1.2v for the Vcore @ stock as thats high?
I think you temps are a little high even for haswell.
Is your room warm?
Ambient room temps can make a good bit of difference to load temps.

I find Hwinfo is very good for temps and volts.It shows your vid (what u set vcore at in bios) and also Vcore what its actually running at when stressed.
Link

If you mobo shows Vcore in the bios that will be your vid but it will rise a bit under load when it turbos up to 3.9ghz.

Run prime again while at stock settings and check Hwinfo's Vcore max.

BloodBath

All the other temps seem reasonable though, and I've seen other people getting similar results with Haswell chips.

You do not have nearly enough airflow in the case for the parts that are in it. You have a 140mm and 120mm cpu fans and a graphics card + hdd's and board that need's airflow to dissipate the heat they are producing.

You have a single 140mm intake trying to feed all of these and a single 140mm exhaust that can't even keep up with the cpu cooler alone never mind the rest. Do yourself a favor and get 3 more 140mm fans. I'd expect temp drops in the 5-10c region unless your ambients are crazy high.

You would be able to run the fans at lower speeds then to keep things quiet.

zilog_jones

Are you sure it was 1.2v for the Vcore @ stock as thats high?
I think you temps are a little high even for haswell.
Is your room warm?
Ambient room temps can make a good bit of difference to load temps.

I find Hwinfo is very good for temps and volts.It shows your vid (what u set vcore at in bios) and also Vcore what its actually running at when stressed.
Link

If you mobo shows Vcore in the bios that will be your vid but it will rise a bit under load when it turbos up to 3.9ghz.

The motherboard was set to "Auto" by default for the Vcore, which after reading up on it did seem to be unusually high. Ambient temperature is 23-24 degrees. I've been using HWMonitor which does all the same things you describe. I set the Vcore manually to 1.2V when overclocking to 4.2 GHz and it seems to be sticking to that under load.

Do you know what are good settings for this CPU? I know overclocking success can vary significantly with them, but is there anything else I should be looking at besides Vcore and multiplier?

game4it70

Bloodbath is right about your case airflow.you need to try improve that before oc'ing to a reasonable speed.


Here is a good guide for gigabyte boards but until you get some more airflow into the case your speed will be limited by temps.
http://www.overclock.net/t/1401976/the-gigabyte-z87-haswell-overclocking-oc-guide/0_100

zilog_jones

Thanks, I guess I should consider more fans if I want to go higher. I think the temps I'm getting now are acceptable for 4.2 GHz, so I'd like to try and get things stable at this speed first.

bladesofglory

zilog_jones wrote: »

Thanks, I guess I should consider more fans if I want to go higher. I think the temps I'm getting now are acceptable for 4.2 GHz, so I'd like to try and get things stable at this speed first.

What are your room temps my friend??

zilog_jones

I already said, 23-24 degrees

bladesofglory

zilog_jones wrote: »

I already said, 23-24 degrees

Remember lad your always limited to ambient temps, but there not that high to be honest. I built a high end custom loop a while back but running 4 GpUs and a CPU on it, and temps where getting v high with OC, Only way i got around it was buying myself a chiller, temps know are around 20c of full load,

Oh the JOYS of keeping cool!!!!