Difficult Mother Ruling The Roost

ShaShaBear

Very long story short (yeah, I know - not really short), my partner and I came to the conclusion (jointly) that any future children we have would not be baptised into any religion unless they specifically asked for it. My partner would have very strong views against religion and I myself would be Athiest but with a slightly healthier respect for other people's faith.

However, when the topic came up with my mother, she absolutely lost her mind. She got very verbally vicious with me in front of my partner, claiming that I was speaking his words and this wasn't what I wanted and "A child simply has to be christened - you are being downright cruel". My partner luckily kept his cool, and she continued by making snide threats along the lines of "Oh, your children will be christened, don't worry about that". I felt disgusted that she would even take this tone, and told her if I got wind that she even attempted it, she would never be allowed near my kids again.

She, like myself, is a baptised Catholic. The last time she attended mass was for my father's 2nd anniversairy in March. Before that, it was for a family christening in January, and before that it was my father's 1st anniversairy :rolleyes: Long story short she is in no way a practising Catholic. She asked me what I would do if I lost a child, since they could never be buried in the local graveyard. I told her I don't like the idea of burial (which I do not, I developed severe distaste for it after my father's burial) and would opt for cremation with a view to scattering the ashes somewhere fun and happy and meaningful to myself and my partner, or that I had heard about the possibility of using the ashes to plant a tree. She didn't seem to like the fact that I had already thought about what I would do in this situation.

It's passed over now and she's not mentioned it since, but I know it's going to cause a massive bust-up when I do have kids. I don't want to fall out with my mother. I was always indifferent about my religion. Once I started secondary school and was no longer obligated to participate for sacraments, I cut it out of my life completely. My mother is using the excuse that I never voiced any strong views on this before my partner, and clearly he has influenced my decision. I told her that he had indeed, it would be silly to assume otherwise - he will be the father of the children, and as I do not care if they are baptised, and he specifically doesn't want them to be, I am more than happy to revert to his way of thinking. My partner and I both agreed, at my request, that if the children at any point asked to enter a faith of any description, that we would oblige, but it would be with the knowledge that we expect them to take it seriously. I've always thought that forcing a child to enter into a verbal contract is extreme, and I would much prefer to see my son or daughter make those vows with their own tongue, should they wish to. Having them show up at confessions, communion and confirmation to mindlessly mumble what was drilled into them at school is disrespectful to the devout as I see it.

So, how do I prepare myself for dealing with my mother here? I do not want to convince my partner to have them baptised, I do not want her thinking she can rule the roost and manipulate my partner into keeping the peace.

Toast4532

Tell her to mind her own business, your kids are yours and your partners, and it is up to you both whether or not they are christened.

Your mother has no say in how you raise them, whether they are christened or not, etc. If anyone had tried interfering on your parents while they were raising you, she would have told them to mind their own business.

If my mother spoke to me like that about my partner, in front of him, I would be distancing myself from her until she learned to keep her opinions to herself and respect our wishes.

sunshine and showers

A naming ceremony could be a nice alternative. She has no right to tell you how your and your partner should raise your child, though.

As an aside, lthe days when unbaptised babies couldn't be buried in graveyards are gone.

LegacyUser

Hi OP

obviously you are entitled to do as you please (I agree with your religious views completely) however, I think the simple option is to just not tell your Mother about these things until they are actually happening, I'm not saying don't converse with her or anything but just be subtle and don't tell her your plans. My MIL is the EXACT same, well maybe a bit different but she is some battle axe let me tell you.
I have actually learnt now that the less I say the less of a headache I have when I have to deal with her. It's sad really because I would like to be good pals with her but she's too much of a control freak, very set in her ways and also seems to think that if you don't do things HER way, then your doing it alllllllll wrong.

So less is more as they say

ShaShaBear

sunshine and showers wrote: »

A naming ceremony could be a nice alternative. She has no right to tell you how your and your partner should raise your child, though.

As an aside, lthe days when unbaptised babies couldn't be buried in graveyards are gone.

I did suggest this and my partner was willing, with a small family party afterwards, but my mother seems to be driven for the religious ceremony. I think perhaps she might have too personal an investment in it, like she doesn't want people talking or something. She's all I have left and I'd hate to lose her over this.

Potatoeman

ShaShaBear wrote: »

I did suggest this and my partner was willing, with a small family party afterwards, but my mother seems to be driven for the religious ceremony. I think perhaps she might have too personal an investment in it, like she doesn't want people talking or something. She's all I have left and I'd hate to lose her over this.

Different generation different values. Its a big thing for most grandpatents, many of whom still frown on unmarried couples. A friend of mine went through this and it wasnt worth the hassle in the end. All the kids friends in school were already baptises for their FHC so they were glad they did it in the end. It can also be usefull when someone dies.

freshpopcorn

Well just because your mother isn't always going to mass doesn't mean she is not religious. The thing is when your mother was born and when you were born it was the done thing was to get the baby baptised.
Your mother might feel that it would be odd that the child isn't baptised because everybody was baptised in her day and she knows that her friends and other members of your family will be wondering when will the christening be on as soon as the baby is born. Its just her up bringing.
All you can do is suggest a naming ceremony and explain to her that ye're beliefs are different to hers.

Honey-ec

Potatoeman wrote: »

All the kids friends in school were already baptises for their FHC so they were glad they did it in the end. It can also be usefull when someone dies.

if they're not planning to baptise the child then I hardly think they're planning to have it make its communion either, so that's utterly moot.

OP, I'd leave it for now. You're not pregnant, it's not going to be an issue for a while, so there's no point in stressing about it. You've already told her how you feel, she can begin to "prepare" for this fact if she feels the need to.

Don't bother bringing it up again until there's an actual baby on the way. By that stage, her initial "shock" may well have worn off enough for her to have an intelligent discussion on the subject.

Starokan

Its pointless stressing yourself out so much over something that has not actually occurred. If and when you have children you can decide what you want to do then.

She knows your position, its unlikely that she will ever change her views, nor should she have to, she just will have to accept that in this she will not get her way

At least it wont be a surprise when you do have kids

ShaShaBear

Starokan wrote: »

Its pointless stressing yourself out so much over something that has not actually occurred. If and when you have children you can decide what you want to do then.

She knows your position, its unlikely that she will ever change her views, nor should she have to, she just will have to accept that in this she will not get her way

At least it wont be a surprise when you do have kids

I'm just grateful at this stage that it happened to come up in conversation before then. I can only imagine having to deal with this in one big lump of anger while pregnant!

Potatoeman, my partner is very much opposed to our children being religious in any way, unless it is their own decision. I am definitely not going to arrange to have my children christened against his will simply because "it's not worth the hassle". I'd like to think my mother would prefer happy, healthy grandchildren with loving parents who do their best to take care of them, without fussing over an hour of kneeling and standing on command in a church just because she doesn't want to be seen as different.

freshpopcorn

ShaShaBear wrote: »

I
Potatoeman, my partner is very much opposed to our children being religious in any way, unless it is their own decision.

Are you as opposed to it as him?
If you did reconnect with your faith in the next few years( it could happen never say never) Would he be comfortable with the kids being baptised then?

P. Breathnach

ShaShaBear wrote: »

I'm just grateful at this stage that it happened to come up in conversation before then. I can only imagine having to deal with this in one big lump of anger while pregnant!...

You are right about that!

Now that the matter has been broached, there is plenty of time for you and for her to work through your feelings before it becomes a practical question. [If I remember things correctly, that really means that you will have to work on it and resist her efforts to take control of this aspect of your life.]

ShaShaBear

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Are you as opposed to it as him?
If you did reconnect with your faith in the next few years( it could happen never say never) Would he be comfortable with the kids being baptised then?

I was never connected with a faith to begin with. I was baptised, made my communion and confirmation because I was told all little girls did. When I hit around 14 I got some sense (no offense to those with faith) and decided it was codswallop. I decided not to marry in a church (oddly enough my mother put up little fight about this, which leads me to believe it's the social boasting she's concerned about, and not the child's faith). If by some mere miracle I was to just decide that I believed in God and the Catholic teachings (which is practically impossible, since I never really believed in them once I had the ability to think on my own initiative and not what I was spoonfed by Catholic primary school), my partner would not consent to baptising them unless they asked to be baptised. Even if I were religious, I would still agree that entering into a verbal contract with the supposed God should be done of the child's own free will, and in full knowledge of what being baptised into their chosen religion would mean.

freshpopcorn

ShaShaBear wrote: »

I was never connected with a faith to begin with. I was baptised, made my communion and confirmation because I was told all little girls did. When I hit around 14 I got some sense (no offense to those with faith) and decided it was codswallop. I decided not to marry in a church (oddly enough my mother put up little fight about this, which leads me to believe it's the social boasting she's concerned about, and not the child's faith). If by some mere miracle I was to just decide that I believed in God and the Catholic teachings (which is practically impossible, since I never really believed in them once I had the ability to think on my own initiative and not what I was spoonfed by Catholic primary school), my partner would not consent to baptising them unless they asked to be baptised. Even if I were religious, I would still agree that entering into a verbal contract with the supposed God should be done of the child's own free will, and in full knowledge of what being baptised into their chosen religion would mean.

OK, I understand where you coming from. I would explain to your mother you beliefs about that your kid can get baptised one day if they want to and you'll support them in this.

ShaShaBear

freshpopcorn wrote: »

OK, I understand where you coming from. I would explain to your mother you beliefs about that your kid can get baptised one day if they want to and you'll support them in this.

It has been explained. I can only hope now that she has time to think about it, it will sink in and she will come to accept that no priest will be pouring a dribble of special water on my kids' heads, and that they will be no worse off for it!

As a slightly paranoid side note, she can hardly arrange a baptism without parental presence or consent, can she?

deisemum

ShaShaBear wrote: »

It has been explained. I can only hope now that she has time to think about it, it will sink in and she will come to accept that no priest will be pouring a dribble of special water on my kids' heads, and that they will be no worse off for it!

As a slightly paranoid side note, she can hardly arrange a baptism without parental presence or consent, can she?

There have been posts on here in the past where a grandparent has tried to have the baby baptised behind the parents back and iirc a priest went along with it.


Your mother's comment "Oh, your children will be christened, don't worry about that" would have me concerned that she'd do such a thing and I'd avoid leaving a baby with a grandparent after that.

sunshine and showers

The fact that your mother did not object to you not marrying in a church leads me to believe that it might not just be about social boasting over the child. I think she may be genuinely worried that an unbaptised child has no chance of going to heaven (if there is one). This was long the case in the Catholic Church, and it brought heartbreak to many families to think that a baby would be stuck in limbo.

Times have changed, though. From what I can see, the Church has moved on in that regard. Maybe you could gently inform/remind her of this fact. http://metro.co.uk/2007/04/22/pope-abolishes-state-of-limbo-312154/


Just a thought.

P. Breathnach

deisemum wrote: »

There have been posts on here in the past where a grandparent has tried to have the baby baptised behind the parents back and iirc a priest went along with it....

I know of one case not too far from where OP is located. It did happen about 30 years ago, and I would hope that priests now take a more enlightened view (i.e. that parental consent is a requirement).

ShaShaBear

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I know of one case not too far from where OP is located. It did happen about 30 years ago, and I would hope that priests now take a more enlightened view (i.e. that parental consent is a requirement).

I'm really just hoping when she is presented with a grandchild and she can enjoy and watch them grow up that she will realise that them not being christened isn't really important. I know if my dad were still alive he simply would not give a fiddler's elbow about it, and my partner's parents honestly said "Ohh, but it would be nice just to have the big day for everyone to come meet the baby". This is when we suggested to both that we would have a naming ceremony, or at the least a little welcome party just like the ones they always have after christenings.

On the offchance that it is some weird religious fear that she has, I'll tell her that limbo was abolished ( :rolleyes: ) and the child will go to Heaven, if there is one, regardless of my methods of upbringing. I never liked the idea of burying a baby anyway, so I had never intended, if I was so unfortunate, to have a Catholic funeral for a stillborn or cot-death child.

mashedbanana

It's terror that your mam is stirring the pot before ye have even conceived a child! Wouldn't it kind of make you wonder what else she might have a strong opinion on with regards to grandkids!

My mother (who would fight with her shadow for the thrill of it) didn't object to a family member getting married in a registry office, we were shocked & surprised to say the least, especially as she is all about street cred. As time rolled by we found out, she was okay with it as she hoped the marriage would have a parting of ways and its, Ahem ..'Much easier to get detangled from a registry marriage, then a church marriage' also, she didn't want friends and neighbours to know the grooms religion. As he was protestant. Very devious individual.

Someones way of thinking would make the boggle the mind! The idle threats isn't nice either.

RIRI

Hey OP
I never post on this forum but had to comment on this. You see I was in this situation but I was the partner who was strongly opposed & it was my Mother in Law who did the flipping out, threatening to Baptize our son behind our backs and so on.

How to deal with your mother? I wouldn't mention it again unless she directly asks "when is the christening?" if/when she does, you simply say, "Mam religion is a very personal thing and we do not wish to indoctrinate our child into something we as a family do not believe in". The family bit here is very important. If she starts loosing the rag, you calmly say that its not a matter open for discussion.

I eventually had to go so far as to tell my mother in law that I find Catholicism and her devotion to it personally offensive. I then reminded her that this is not something I had ever mentioned before due to the fact that I respect everyones right to practice all religions and none according to their personal beliefs and that surely a good christian should do the same. As I afford her that respect, so should my opinion be respected.

Maybe she had him christened behind our backs - only she and the priest know that for certain. We raise him how we see fit, that's our job as parents, not my mother in law's job as a grand parent.

Best of luck OP - stick by your principles, be united as a family in your decision. But most of all be respectful. Can't expect people to respect your choices if you don;t respect theirs.

harney

Is there any chance she might plague a future child to get baptised? Emotional blackmail etc. I would think a young child who had baptised friends would be open to a lot of pressure from a grandparent.

I don't envy you op, bit best of luck.

FiachDubh

harney wrote: »

Is there any chance she might plague a future child to get baptised? Emotional blackmail etc. I would think a young child who had baptised friends would be open to a lot of pressure from a grandparent.

I don't envy you op, bit best of luck.

Bully a child into getting baptised? That's ridiculous.
I'm personally on granny's side OP. My family is religious to the bone. I think my mother hail Mary's in her sleep and my father will hang a st. Christopher's medallion off anything and everyone. I'm not religious but I willingly go to mass every week anyway. Partly because I know I have no option but also because I've stopped looking at mass from a religious point of view and started looking at it from a cultural point of view. Cut it anyway you like but Catholicism is part of the Irish identity, it was faught for tooth and nail.
Baptism isn't the joining of the church, its the invitation. Confirmation is the time to sit down with your kid and discuss what it means to have Faith. Give your kid the option then of practicing the religion or not. Taking away religion is just as bad as imposing it.
Just my thoughts, OP. I'm sure whatever decision you make when the time comes will be the right one.

hfallada

OP I think Catholism in Ireland is a cultural thing rather than an actual desire for religion. There are so many people who are christened for the simple all Irish people do it and I don't know anyone who isn't christened( I actually don't know anyone who hasn't christened their children but everyone I know are Catholics or church of Ireland).

OP although your partner and you have strong views on religion. Have you considered by not bapitising your future child you may stop them going from certain schools( all catholic primary schools in my area have a catholic first policy and then eventually no religion) which is a serious issue if you live outside of a big city. I know you don't agree with it. But you could be indirectly making it difficult for your child going to school.

I admire you for sticking up for your beliefs and value. Although Irish society doesn't feel the same way regarding religion ans its roles in schools. Just make sure your children will be able to get a school place.

Irish_Elect_Eng

Do you know that you do not need a priest to Christen / Baptize a child?
Anyone can do it so long as they follow the simple process.
This could be done in 1 minute.

To address this you should take the focus away from the issue at had and deal with your relationship with your mother. You need to discuss the fact that as an adult you now have your own life and family and while you value her opinion as your mother you will be making your own decisions based on your values and beliefs. Sheen needs to know that if she want to be a part of your family, she needs to understand that your family has a different set of unique values from her family.

Working on developing an "adult" relationship with a parent is something many people never get around to doing, the relationship that served you well in your youth is often not an effective/healthy one once you have flown the nest. You both have so much to gain from having a good relationship that it would be very silly not to put the work into getting there.

ShaShaBear

I think I've already made it pretty clear that I am not taking away religion from my future children, but allowing them to make the informed decision about which, if any, faith they would like to become part of.

None of the schools in my area require any sort of religious background to ensure a child's education.

As for the relationship with my mother, some people will remember that I have posted here numerous times about her ruling with an iron fist when it comes to all major decisions in my life. I have a perfectly mature way of dealing with issues, but my mother thinks it has to be done her way or it isn't being done right.

I am certainly not going to go completely against the father of my children in favour of my mother. As a poster said, we are a family, and I believe that any decisions made should only be influenced directly by myself and my partner. My mother thinking that a child will be worse off for not being a baptised Catholic at 6 weeks old is irrelevant, and frankly stupid.

wallycharlo

OP, if I have read this thread correctly then you are not even pregnant yet, never mind actually having a child? Fair enough that you and your partner make such a decision in advance, but I don't see an point in engaging your mother on this now, especially as it was probably pretty obvious as to what her reaction would be. Fair enough it may lead to conflict further down the line, but what's to be gained by taking this stance right at this minute?

You may never end up having children with this person. To be completely frank you may never end up having children at all, who is to know ...

ShaShaBear

wallycharlo wrote: »

OP, if I have read this thread correctly then you are not even pregnant yet, never mind actually having a child? Fair enough that you and your partner make such a decision in advance, but I don't see an point in engaging your mother on this now, especially as it was probably pretty obvious as to what her reaction would be. Fair enough it may lead to conflict further down the line, but what's to be gained by taking this stance right at this minute?

You may never end up having children with this person. To be completely frank you may never end up having children at all, who is to know ...

Possibly, but unless one of us is infertile and we have a massive argument that leads to us cancelling the wedding next year, I think it's a fair assumption that we will have children together, being that we both want them.

Thank you for the advice, I think all I can do here is keep my mouth shut and hope I don't end up having to choose.

Big Bag of Chips

OP, you have said that you have posted here before about your mother ruling with an iron fist.

Why, oh why, did you even have this conversation with her?! You are an adult, and as you say you have your own mature way of making decisions... So stop telling your mother things!!

She doesn't need to know anything. You need to change the way you deal with her. Yes, she is your mother, and would be nice to think you could have general conversations with her about the goings on in your life. But you can't. She won't allow that. So stop.

Keep conversation with her very superficial. Don't ask her opinion. Don't give her the chance to belittle you, your partner or your decisions.

My mother is nowhere near as bad as yours, but she's a little bit of a "know-it-all". I tell her very little!

I always say it, but telly has a lot to answer for. Showing us these picture perfect families and friends, and making us all believe that we should be able to talk about everything. Real life doesn't work like that.

ShaShaBear

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

OP, you have said that you have posted here before about your mother ruling with an iron fist.

Why, oh why, did you even have this conversation with her?! You are an adult, and as you say you have your own mature way of making decisions... So stop telling your mother things!!

She doesn't need to know anything. You need to change the way you deal with her. Yes, she is your mother, and would be nice to think you could have general conversations with her about the goings on in your life. But you can't. She won't allow that. So stop.

Keep conversation with her very superficial. Don't ask her opinion. Don't give her the chance to belittle you, your partner or your decisions.

My mother is nowhere near as bad as yours, but she's a little bit of a "know-it-all". I tell her very little!

I always say it, but telly has a lot to answer for. Showing us these picture perfect families and friends, and making us all believe that we should be able to talk about everything. Real life doesn't work like that.

To be honest, I had absolutely no idea she would react this way. She was a tad miffed when we told her our wedding was going to be Civil and not religious, but she made it perfectly clear it was just a cultural issue with not having me walk up the aisle of a church. Now she raves to everyone about how intimate and quick the wedding will be and how it will be so much more enjoyable. I didn't tell her outright that baptism was off the cards, rather she said something about it and my OH blurted without thinking. He had been warned to be careful, but I don't think he realised the extent of the madness.

I'm just going to forget all about it, I have to go see about surgery for endo in three weeks, so likely I could end up having no choice but to think about family planning in the next few months. Based on advice here I'm hoping that telling her that my family wishes not to do baptism (I would avoid telling her that we will do it if the child asks for it, because my mother would definitely blackmail a child into asking us to do it) and I'd much rather her be in the child's life.

I don't know if you commented on my last problem Big Bag of Chips, but you might remember her as the mother that sent me into spirals of depression over organising my entire engagement party, right down to inviting the lad that mows my mother's lawn

iguana

wallycharlo wrote: »

OP, if I have read this thread correctly then you are not even pregnant yet, never mind actually having a child? Fair enough that you and your partner make such a decision in advance, but I don't see an point in engaging your mother on this now, especially as it was probably pretty obvious as to what her reaction would be. Fair enough it may lead to conflict further down the line, but what's to be gained by taking this stance right at this minute?

I thought this initially but at the same time when you are pregnant or have a newborn conflict is the last thing you need. I know I absolutely dreaded my in laws bringing up the baptism issue when I was pregnant and I didn't expect such a nasty reaction as the OP's mum has had. I certainly hated how early conversation with extended family when my son was a newborn often involved being asked about when he would be baptised. Having to explain my choices marred what should just have been a lovely special time. If I had a relative like the OP's mother I think I'd be keen to have this issue out of the way and put to bed before I was pregnant and certainly before I actually had a baby as it would be too much stress to have to face at what is a great but often difficult time.

ShaShaBear

iguana wrote: »

I thought this initially but at the same time when you are pregnant or have a newborn conflict is the last thing you need. I know I absolutely dreaded my in laws bringing up the baptism issue when I was pregnant and I didn't expect such a nasty reaction as the OP's mum has had. I certainly hated how early conversation with extended family when my son was a newborn often involved being asked about when he would be baptised. Having to explain my choices marred what should just have been a lovely special time. If I had a relative like the OP's mother I think I'd be keen to have this issue out of the way and put to bed before I was pregnant and certainly before I actually had a baby as it would be too much stress to have to face at what is a great but often difficult time.

I would much rather it blow up and calm down now, than it to hit me like a tonne of bricks after I find out I'm expecting.