Postgraduate Training in Psychiatry

masterboy123

Hi,

I am confused with the system of postgrad training in Ireland.

I want to specialize in Psychiatry.
Do I apply for SHO jobs or Basic Specialist Training (BST) scheme?
Is the SHO experience counted in the specialty?

If someone can please shed some light on it, it will be great.

Thanks

sam34

hi there

you should apply for the BST scheme. it'll be advertised on irishpsychiatry.ie in jan/feb.

basic training is 4 years, you start at sho level and work up to reg. you have to pass the membership exams as well as a continuous assessment programme.

after 4 years, you will be eligible to apply for higher specialist training-ie SR scheme. however, it's competitive and getting more so, so most people at this stage do research or lecturing jobs for a year or more.

SR scheme is 3-4 years, depending on if you want to do dual qualifications (eg adult plus learning disability).

I'm a psychiatrist- took up my consultant post in 2010, if you've any other questions, send them my way!

masterboy123

Hi Sam,

Many thanks for clarification.
Is it not possible to work as SHO in a hospital before Jan/Feb? And later when its January I can apply for BST scheme?
Is there a tuition fee in BST scheme? And if I am on the BST scheme, do I get to work in Dublin only or can it be anywhere in Ireland?

Also what happens if I just continue to work without registering in the BST scheme?

sam34

hi

there may be some sho jobs available now but they'd be locum jobs, so you wouldn't be on the training (bst) scheme. they'll be advertised on the same website.

if you do all non-training scheme jobs, you can sit your exams but you won't have had the continuous assessment part so you won't get a cert of completion of BST, which in turn means you can't progress to HST in Ireland- however you'd be able to go to the uk as long as you had the MRCPsych.

no tuition fee as far as I know.

BST applications will be in jan/feb, with a view to starting work in July.

you can choose what part of the country you'd like to be in, and then it depends on how many others chose that and where you are on panel etc

masterboy123

Thanks Sam.

You are a very kind psychiatrist I must say :-)
Wish you the best!

A Neurotic

Hi Sam, mind if I chip in with a couple of questions?

What are the main factors considered in deciding who gets on their preferred psych training scheme - I presume medical degree grade, extra qualifications and any displays of interest or ability in psychiatry are the main things? Is there anything else major that might be worth thinking about? (I'm going into my final year of college and planning on going into psych).

Second, how common is it for people to train a bit in medicine and then go into psych? Do you personally think it's beneficial to a career in psychiatry? Thinking way ahead, I think liason psych might be of interest to me - do you know if most liaison psychiatrists have some medical training?

Third, I couldn't help but note that a large proportion of our psychiatry lecturers/professors (quite possibly by chance) seem to have trained in England - London, specifically. Is there a notion that psychiatry training is superior there? Seems to be the place to be...

masterboy123

Hi Neurotic,

Actually I am also interested in Liaison Psychiatry...I thought there are only a few people interested in it. I am happy to see your message.:)

Good luck!

A Neurotic wrote: »

Hi Sam, mind if I chip in with a couple of questions?

What are the main factors considered in deciding who gets on their preferred psych training scheme - I presume medical degree grade, extra qualifications and any displays of interest or ability in psychiatry are the main things? Is there anything else major that might be worth thinking about? (I'm going into my final year of college and planning on going into psych).

Second, how common is it for people to train a bit in medicine and then go into psych? Do you personally think it's beneficial to a career in psychiatry? Thinking way ahead, I think liason psych might be of interest to me - do you know if most liaison psychiatrists have some medical training?

Third, I couldn't help but note that a large proportion of our psychiatry lecturers/professors (quite possibly by chance) seem to have trained in England - London, specifically. Is there a notion that psychiatry training is superior there? Seems to be the place to be...

sam34

A Neurotic wrote: »

Hi Sam, mind if I chip in with a couple of questions?

What are the main factors considered in deciding who gets on their preferred psych training scheme - I presume medical degree grade, extra qualifications and any displays of interest or ability in psychiatry are the main things? Is there anything else major that might be worth thinking about? (I'm going into my final year of college and planning on going into psych).

Second, how common is it for people to train a bit in medicine and then go into psych? Do you personally think it's beneficial to a career in psychiatry? Thinking way ahead, I think liason psych might be of interest to me - do you know if most liaison psychiatrists have some medical training?

Third, I couldn't help but note that a large proportion of our psychiatry lecturers/professors (quite possibly by chance) seem to have trained in England - London, specifically. Is there a notion that psychiatry training is superior there? Seems to be the place to be...

hi

firstly, things aren't competitive at BST level at the moment. they are at hst, but not BST. however, it's still worth putting in the effort and doing a good interview etc. when you're coming straight from undergrad its hard to have done much that'll make you stand out. what I did was ensure any projects (like the pharm and paeds ones) were psych orientated. it sounds basic, but have a good answer thought out for the inevitable question "why do you want to do psychiatry?"- I've seen people stumble over that at interview. also, you're likely to be asked done basic clinical questions at interview, so know how to do a suicide risk assessment , how to manage lithium toxicity, types of antidepressants etc.

re medical training first- what I'd say is this- if you're going to do it, do a full scheme and get your medical memberships, and during that time do psych orientated audits, research etc to show your interest. IMO, there's little point doing 6 or 12 months and leaving with no qualification. rightly or wrongly, you'll be looked on at the psych interview as someone who couldn't hack medicine and opted out into psych (inferiority complex, anyone?!) . I didn't do any medicine,neither did any of my colleagues doing psych around the same time as me. If you're thinking liaison psych, the most relevant medical areas would be neurology and rheumatology but you could end up doing dermatology and ophthalmology, neither of which would be of benefit. it's a while since I checked, but back in my day you used be able to sit the mrcp part 1 if you had the MRCPsych part 1, so maybe that's still an option?

re the UK- its not as much of a given in psych as it is in other specialties that you'll need to go abroad. in fact, of the consultant appointments in the last 4-5 years that I can think of, only 1 or 2 have done some or all their training in the uk. the vast vast majority have been Irish trained. I'll put it like this- if you don't want to go abroad, you certainly won't have to.

Andrea147

I know this is an old topic but I don't really know where to ask this question. I'm a medical student from an EU country and would like to go into psychiatry, preferably in Ireland. I was wondering if anyone knows if it's possible to do it without any prior experience working as a physician, or maybe 1 year experience working in my country. I've looked at the application process and it says you have to have two references from past employers so I'm guessing no? If anyone has any info on this I would be so grateful

masterboy123

You can get 2 references from your intern year. But given current competitive market, it's advisable to have some experience in Psychiatry and then apply for the training scheme (total duration 7-8 years).
Wish you the best.

bo0li5eumx12kp

Browsing this forum, and saw this thread - I just have a question or two;

From what I understand - to become a consultant shrink, one must train for, years.
A ridiculously long period of time.

What exactly - do psychiatrists do?

I ask this primarily from the view point of, having researched post grad possibilities, one course that came up for me was neuropharmacology.

I though to myself - that's a fancy title, bet I could bag some chicks with a title like that, so I downloaded a couple of books to see what was up, and began working away.

About 6 months, 3 text books, a couple dozen papers, and many phone calls to universities later - and I feel I have a good idea of what I'd be letting myself in for.


However - it left me asking - if this is pharmacology - what do psychiatrists do?

Pharmacology covers drug mechanics, basic drug chemistry, metabolism, interactions, neuroscience, and the general principles of operation as to brain related drugs - and pain related, which I guess are outside the CNS.

But psychiatrists are meant to be the drug authorities - no?

More questions, more phone calls later - no.

Apparently not.

Apparently their primary concern is diagnostics.
Attaching labels to peoples conditions.
Depressions, ADHD, anxiety - I don't know if they work in the realms of pain - GABA'ergics seems to be the latest and greatest, nor do I know if they routinely prescribe opioids.

Some more fringe treatments like ECT, and other brain zapping apparatus.

But understanding the actual drugs they're prescribing - seems to be secondary consideration.
The actual governing brain mechanics, and in depth neuroscience - falls far more so within the realm of pharmacology, that psychiatry.
I don't even know if psychiatrists are particularly well versed in neuroscience at all....?

So - with all that being said - the years and years it takes to become a consultant shrink - what exactly are they doing all that time?


Allow me to also say that - what I covered in neuropharm, technical jargon aside - and despite the intimidating title, it is not a complex discipline.

In fact - it's remarkably straight forward.

No convoluted mathematics, no long winded equations.
Quite frankly, no counter intuitive, mind bending content that the likes of complex computer science, physics etc, has.

Which again begs the question - if the complexity of psychiatry is off loaded to pharmacologists, and pharmacology isn't that convoluted - why does it take the guts of a decade to become a psychiatrist???

masterboy123

A psychiatrist is a medical doctor who specializes in mental health disorders. Psychiatrists are qualified to assess both the mental and physical aspects of psychological problems.

Knowing the diagnostic criteria of mental health conditions and having a good idea about the medicines and how they work is a key point for psychiatrist.

The above take few years. However, to be a great psychiatrist, he/she should be looking at the social aspect of patients, which can take years to understand and to be able to develop a natural empathy may take several years.

There are several good articles about psychiatrists and their role that you may check up.

bo0li5eumx12kp

masterboy123 wrote: »

A psychiatrist is a medical doctor who specializes in mental health disorders. Psychiatrists are qualified to assess both the mental and physical aspects of psychological problems.

Knowing the diagnostic criteria of mental health conditions and having a good idea about the medicines and how they work is a key point for psychiatrist.

The above take few years. However, to be a great psychiatrist, he/she should be looking at the social aspect of patients, which can take years to understand and to be able to develop a natural empathy may take several years.

There are several good articles about psychiatrists and their role that you may check up.

lol - Jebus.

Am I believing what I'm reading?

Academia is gonna teach one how to develop empathy?

If history has demonstrated anything, it's that interpersonal skills are acquired OUTSIDE the realms of academia.

Please link said articles.

Diagnostic criteria.....:pac::pac::pac:

This is no slight on you personally, I appreciate the response - but wow.

You've basically confirmed my fears.

Fact, is indeed - stranger than fiction.

masterboy123

Academia doesn't teach you empathy and working with patients presenting who have enduring mental health problems and putting yourself in their shoes does!

And to highlight we are working as independent doctors while doing this prestigious training.

I am not sure of your background. But if possible do few weeks of shadowing with a resident and you will get a hint of what we actually do.

The job is very much rewarding, in the sense that you see your patients getting better. And it's evidence based!

Cheers

Terrence Tasty Cross wrote: »

lol - Jebus.

Am I believing what I'm reading?

Academia is gonna teach one how to develop empathy?

If history has demonstrated anything, it's that interpersonal skills are acquired OUTSIDE the realms of academia.

Please link said articles.

Diagnostic criteria.....:pac::pac::pac:

This is no slight on you personally, I appreciate the response - but wow.

You've basically confirmed my fears.

Fact, is indeed - stranger than fiction.

bo0li5eumx12kp

masterboy123 wrote: »

Academia doesn't teach you empathy and working with patients presenting who have enduring mental health problems and putting yourself in their shoes does!

And to highlight we are working as independent doctors while doing this prestigious training.

I am not sure of your background. But if possible do few weeks of shadowing with a resident and you will get a hint of what we actually do.

The job is very much rewarding, in the sense that you see your patients getting better. And it's evidence based!

Cheers

I can't say with any authority of course but - according to, basically all neuroscience manuals and books I've read - the remission stats across all chronic mental health conditions, are gut wrenchingly low.

Again my primary contention, from a hobbyist neuroscience view point is - the ability to gauge another persons condition, that ability being predicated on personality - it seems ludicrous to me that there's an expectation this can be learned from "clinical experience" and academic literature.

Ludicrous.

And additionally, psychiatrists null understanding of in depth neuroscience and absolute absence of pharmacological knowledge - whilst being tasked as the pre-eminent authorities as to drug administration;

All in all - makes it a very peculiar practice to me indeed.

When I think "empathy, intuition, personality", as bizarre as this sounds - I subsequently think, "card shark, pool hustler, playboy, pick up artist";

I certainly don't think, "book worm, academic".

The latter can crunch numbers just fine.

Dealing with complex emotional states however?

Sorry - I've never been able to see, don't think I ever will - and anything I have seen, is a sound exhibition as to their complete INABILITY in this area.

masterboy123

"And additionally, psychiatrists null understanding of in depth neuroscience and absolute absence of pharmacological knowledge"
With no disrespect to you, but you are absolutely and clearly living in a totally different world with no clue what a psychiatrist does and what area they specialise in. Your info is very much biased and anti-psychiatry.

Terrence Tasty Cross wrote: »

I can't say with any authority of course but - according to, basically all neuroscience manuals and books I've read - the remission stats across all chronic mental health conditions, are gut wrenchingly low.

Again my primary contention, from a hobbyist neuroscience view point is - the ability to gauge another persons condition, that ability being predicated on personality - it seems ludicrous to me that there's an expectation this can be learned from "clinical experience" and academic literature.

Ludicrous.

And additionally, psychiatrists null understanding of in depth neuroscience and absolute absence of pharmacological knowledge - whilst being tasked as the pre-eminent authorities as to drug administration;

All in all - makes it a very peculiar practice to me indeed.

When I think "empathy, intuition, personality", as bizarre as this sounds - I subsequently think, "card shark, pool hustler, playboy, pick up artist";

I certainly don't think, "book worm, academic".

The latter can crunch numbers just fine.

Dealing with complex emotional states however?

Sorry - I've never been able to see, don't think I ever will - and anything I have seen, is a sound exhibition as to their complete INABILITY in this area.