Do you need an ATPL to fly with the airlines?

FWVT

Sorry if this is a stupid post from a mere PPL but I always thought that to fly with the airlines you need an ATPL and that a CPL wasn't sufficient. I was reading the Spanish CIAIAC's report into a fuel emergency at Valencia in 2010 (it happens to be Ryanair but that's just coincidence) and it says that the First Officer had a CPL.

What are the official requirements? Are they the same for all airlines? Would he have been in training?

http://avherald.com/h?article=42bf38c3&opt=0

.....

The crew consisted of a captain (27, ATPL, 6,835 hours total, 5,426 hours on type) and a first officer (22, CPL, 2,057 hours total, 1,902 hours on type). Following receiving ATIS the crew briefed for an ILS approach to Alicante's runway 10. Weather data reported to the crew indicated a tailwind component on approach to runway 10 above 200 feet AGL but calm winds on the runway. This weather scenario had been confirmed by previous arrivals reporting a speed increase while descending below 200 feet AGL.

.....

phonypony

For commercial ops you need an ATPL to be PIC of an aircraft over 5.7 tonnes/more than 9 passengers. A CPL with the usual extra ratings suffices for second in command in a multi-crew aircraft.

Roblestone

FWVT wrote: »

Sorry if this is a stupid post from a mere PPL but I always thought that to fly with the airlines you need an ATPL and that a CPL wasn't sufficient. I was reading the Spanish CIAIAC's report into a fuel emergency at Valencia in 2010 (it happens to be Ryanair but that's just coincidence) and it says that the First Officer had a CPL.

What are the official requirements? Are they the same for all airlines? Would he have been in training?

http://avherald.com/h?article=42bf38c3&opt=0

.....

The crew consisted of a captain (27, ATPL, 6,835 hours total, 5,426 hours on type) and a first officer (22, CPL, 2,057 hours total, 1,902 hours on type). Following receiving ATIS the crew briefed for an ILS approach to Alicante's runway 10. Weather data reported to the crew indicated a tailwind component on approach to runway 10 above 200 feet AGL but calm winds on the runway. This weather scenario had been confirmed by previous arrivals reporting a speed increase while descending below 200 feet AGL.

.....

Wishy washy area but i think my take on it is right;

You can start in airlines with a CPL, MEIR, MCC and ATPL theory. This is commonly referred to a a Frozen ATPL, which isn't actually an official term as far as I know. You can apply for an ATPL after flying 1500 hours and have a few other conditions met regarding multi crew time, night flying etc. etc. Don't know if there is a skills test involved.

Edit: when I mean start in an airline, I mean as an FO

Xpro

To obtain a CPL in first place you will need an Atpl theory.
To obtain ATPL you will need over 1500H jet flying. So you could call an Fo either a fAtpl or Cpl if below the hours mentioned

Roblestone

Xpro wrote: »

To obtain a CPL in first place you will need an Atpl theory.
To obtain ATPL you will need over 1500H jet flying. So you could call an Fo either a fAtpl or Cpl if below the hours mentioned

You don't need ATPL theory if you just want a CPL. The ATPL theory covers the CPL and IR.

Xpro

Roblestone wrote: »

You don't need ATPL theory if you just want a CPL. The ATPL theory covers the CPL and IR.

Technicaly speaking you dont. But it would be a very unlogical thing to do.
( job opportunites will be minimized) and were talking about airlines here

Besides most FTO's requirement is that an applicant has completed the atpl thoery before starting the CPL training.

Fully Established

Too hold a basic CPL you must complete nine of the ATPL exams basically the VFR portion if you want to have a realistic opportunity of employment the instrument rating would be advisable which includes five more exams and the Multi and instrument training.With the CPL and IR an airline could employ you with low hours and after 1500 hrs you can then unfreeze the ATPL during your LPC in the simulator .

basill

A quick look at the FOs hours would incline me to think that we're fresh out of flying school before getting a job at FR. On successfully gained an airline position they would have completed:-

- initial safety and emergency procedures training
- inductions into the airline in question covering corporate security and various other bits and pieces
- a full sim conversion course on type (type rating), this would be around 60 hours
- passed an initial licence skill test (LST) in the sim
- base training including a minimum of 6 landings from memory
- line training - probably around 50 sectors with fare paying pax onboard
- on successful completion of the line training then passed an initial line check

Only after the above plus whatever else I have missed out our intrepid new cojo would be released to the line to fly with ordinary line captains. There will probably be more restrictions on the new cojo until they have built up their experience before they could for example fly with new captains. All of those rules will be built into the airlines rostering system and outlined in the Ops Manual.

Once they have completed 1500hrs and ticked various boxes in terms of the flying undertaken then they can ask to complete an LST (usually done as part of a 6 monthly lpc/opc) which if successfully completed will be used towards the application for an ATPL with the required paperwork and fees being submitted to the regulator. A new shiny licence will then be issued which in "theory" now enables the pilot to act as PIC of a commercial jet etc. The reality is that a whole host of requirements detailed in the airlines Ops Manuals will need to be met and passed before a candidate is put forward for command.

smurfjed

To obtain ATPL you will need over 1500H jet flying.

JET hours? So the guys in Aer Arran cant get an ATPL?

Roblestone

smurfjed wrote: »

JET hours? So the guys in Aer Arran cant get an ATPL?

I think he may be mistaken, I believe it is multi crew hours

smurfjed

- a full sim conversion course on type (type rating), this would be around 60 hours

Thats 30 simulator sessions per crew, is this right?

Growler!!!

15 x 4 hour sessions? Seems a bit long.

Have a look at the IAA ATPL application form. Page 2 states all the requirements.

https://www.iaa.ie/pl_application-forms

basill

It's gonna vary between the airlines. I think our cadets now get a JOC course which increase the number of sessions and hours in the sim. If you pay for your own type rating then I would suspect it would be the bare minimum approved by the relevant regulator.

LeftBase

basill wrote: »

It's gonna vary between the airlines. I think our cadets now get a JOC course which increase the number of sessions and hours in the sim. If you pay for your own type rating then I would suspect it would be the bare minimum approved by the relevant regulator.

You get a JOC with a lot of MCC courses now