Grassland Summer tour

delaval

I hope to go on Wed, always find it a good day.

Focus this year on start up and on an expanding farm

Last year was good a rapidly growing farm through land purchase and a very well established pedigree breeder.

just do it

Where's it on?

delaval

just do it wrote: »

Where's it on?

Tipp.

Go on their web site. All details will be there, they do a sheep and a cattle tour during the year also.

Great chance to network

jfh

Dairy Summer Tour
Wednesday 14th August
Rathgormack Co.Waterford

jersey101

What was it like after??

Viewtodiefor

jersey101 wrote: »

What was it like after??

Anyone go?

delaval

I went will fill ye in later. Good day more to follow

delaval

A really interesting day and one of two halves.

Visited the Kirwan fwrm in Stradbally Waterford in the morning. This guy was in transition from suckler farming to dairy. He had been a very successful beef farmer and this as reflected in the prices he was achieving for his cattle.

He was slowly moving into dairy, he was selling and replacing with milking cows.
Bought 50 cows in 2011, 13 in 2012 and in 2012 he bought 22 in calf heifers.
His goal is to be at 150 by 2016
I felt that he should be moving faster but he was comfortable with what he was doing. He was clearly an excellent farmer but was very busy purely due to the numbers of groups on the farm
His set up costs were €2199/cow including Quota buildings etc, when cattle sales were counted his nett cost per cow was €951

When at beef his margin was €404/ha it now is at €751 not inc. direct payments. He is lightly stocked at 2.2lu/ha but margin per ha will improve as he gros cow numbers.
This was a little basic for those of us already established but for anyone considering entering dairy it was a must!!!

The next farm was in Rathgormack, Co Waterford
This was an established diry farm that had grown quickly without buying any stock. The attention to detai on this farm was exceptional.
2005, 55cows today 158

He was stocked at 3.3/ha with 700 tonne of silage bought on the shank.
He had an excellent herd of cows all b ai with an average EBI of 180 and young stock >220. also has sold 7 bulls to ai.
Concentrates on fert and solids when choosing bulls
His costs for extra cows orked out at €4000/ cow inc quota. This figure also costs all the females he kept to add to the herd.
His margin/ ha is €1610

One very good point he made was on soil fert. He warned that as he grew all he used was N with slurry which was adequate with low SR but he really run P&K down s herd grew. It has cost a lot to rectify. His warning was not to ignore this aspect

Mulumpy

delaval wrote: »

A really interesting day and one of two halves.

Visited the Kirwan fwrm in Stradbally Waterford in the morning. This guy was in transition from suckler farming to dairy. He had been a very successful beef farmer and this as reflected in the prices he was achieving for his cattle.

He was slowly moving into dairy, he was selling and replacing with milking cows.
Bought 50 cows in 2011, 13 in 2012 and in 2012 he bought 22 in calf heifers.
His goal is to be at 150 by 2016
I felt that he should be moving faster but he was comfortable with what he was doing. He was clearly an excellent farmer but was very busy purely due to the numbers of groups on the farm
His set up costs were €2199/cow including Quota buildings etc, when cattle sales were counted his nett cost per cow was €951

When at beef his margin was €404/ha it now is at €751 not inc. direct payments. He is lightly stocked at 2.2lu/ha but margin per ha will improve as he gros cow numbers.
This was a little basic for those of us already established but for anyone considering entering dairy it was a must!!!

The next farm was in Rathgormack, Co Waterford
This was an established diry farm that had grown quickly without buying any stock. The attention to detai on this farm was exceptional.
2005, 55cows today 158

He was stocked at 3.3/ha with 700 tonne of silage bought on the shank.
He had an excellent herd of cows all b ai with an average EBI of 180 and young stock >220. also has sold 7 bulls to ai.
Concentrates on fert and solids when choosing bulls
His costs for extra cows orked out at €4000/ cow inc quota. This figure also costs all the females he kept to add to the herd.
His margin/ ha is €1610

One very good point he made was on soil fert. He warned that as he grew all he used was N with slurry which was adequate with low SR but he really run P&K down s herd grew. It has cost a lot to rectify. His warning was not to ignore this aspect

Hi Delaval. Just bit confused on the point of P&K. Im stocked at 3.5 and in index 4 and we havent put P out for 20 years. If his stocking rate is rising why would his PK levels be suffering or is he on a low index

just do it

Excellent synopsis delaval, thanks for that. The journal has drastically different gross margin figures for the first farmer. From what I recall they had a GM when beef farming of ~€65/ha and now thanks to dairy it's €1,050/ha. Not sure if second figure is when he's fully converted or current - must be projected as it's a lot different to your figure. The journal did say these figures included a deduction for salary.

Are you a member of IGA? What are the benefits?

delaval

Mulumpy wrote: »

Hi Delaval. Just bit confused on the point of P&K. Im stocked at 3.5 and in index 4 and we havent put P out for 20 years. If his stocking rate is rising why would his PK levels be suffering or is he on a low index

He said that he believed that slurry alone would maintain P&K but when he tested he found a huge drop from 07-12
2007 2012
Index 1 P 0% K 0% P 31% K 0%

Index 2 P 20% K 20% P 62% K 38%

Index 3 P 80% K 20% P 8% K 38%

Index 4 P 0% K 60% P 0% K 24%

Hope this helps

How are you managing to keep it up at that level with no compound, what's the secret?

Mulumpy

delaval wrote: »

He said that he believed that slurry alone would maintain P&K but when he tested he found a huge drop from 07-12
2007 2012
Index 1 P 0% K 0% P 31% K 0%

Index 2 P 20% K 20% P 62% K 38%

Index 3 P 80% K 20% P 8% K 38%

Index 4 P 0% K 60% P 0% K 24%

Hope this helps

How are you managing to keep it up at that level with no compound, what's the secret?

As u know im only new to this game so only learning so not really sure but I would have thought the more cows you put in a field the higher your P would be. My father would have horsed out 0-7-30 in the 80s and 90s.

bob charles

delaval wrote: »

One very good point he made was on soil fert. He warned that as he grew all he used was N with slurry which was adequate with low SR but he really run P&K down s herd grew. It has cost a lot to rectify. His warning was not to ignore this aspect

Ah sure, people only spread P and K during a good year when they're making money for the rest of the years then they can ****e on about an artifical grazing figure as they dont have to include a P and K cost :rolleyes:

bob charles

delaval wrote: »

He said that he believed that slurry alone would maintain P&K but when he tested he found a huge drop from 07-12
2007 2012
Index 1 P 0% K 0% P 31% K 0%

Index 2 P 20% K 20% P 62% K 38%

Index 3 P 80% K 20% P 8% K 38%

Index 4 P 0% K 60% P 0% K 24%

Hope this helps

How are you managing to keep it up at that level with no compound, what's the secret?

If he matched his P and K off take with what they are P and k they are applying like I keep harping on about he would never have run into this problem. Easy show fancy figures at the end of the year when your raping your ground. Also please get over this notion that P and K have to be in index 3 and 4. If you have land in 3 & 4 I bet the ground isnt producing big crops.

I know of a farm that was let and the soils tests were the best the renting farmer ever saw and they were done by himself so accurate. paid a decent rent and after 2 year he said the farm wouldnt grow Jack ****e

Mulumpy

bob charles wrote: »

If he matched his P and K output with the the input like I keep harping on about he would never have run into this problem. Easy show fancy figures at the end of the year when your raping your ground. Also please get over this notion that P and K have to be in index 3 and 4. If you have land in 3 & 4 I bet the ground isnt producing big crops.

I know of a farm that was let and the soils tests were the best the renting farmer ever saw and they were done by himself so accurate. paid a decent rent and after 2 year he said the farm wouldnt grow Jack ****e

Good point Bob management is key.

delaval

just do it wrote: »

Excellent synopsis delaval, thanks for that. The journal has drastically different gross margin figures for the first farmer. From what I recall they had a GM when beef farming of ~€65/ha and now thanks to dairy it's €1,050/ha. Not sure if second figure is when he's fully converted or current - must be projected as it's a lot different to your figure. The journal did say these figures included a deduction for salary.

Are you a member of IGA? What are the benefits?

Yes after a deduction of 35k(I think) for salary

Am a member. An always excellent summer tour with a discount for members. A dairy conference in Jan. Their journals are always handy for reference. Also no agendas. They hold beef and sheep events. If your into grass I recommend going to an event and then decide on membership

I really like the people I meet to be honest.

delaval

bob charles wrote: »

Ah sure, people only spread P and K during a good year when they're making money for the rest of the years then they can ****e on about an artifical grazing figure as they dont have to include a P and K cost :rolleyes:

Bob to be fair the man was qualifying all his figures by saying exactly what you've said.
Have to admit to being that soldier. When I get i back up I assure you that hile my ares faces the ground I'll never let it drop again:eek::eek:

delaval

bob charles wrote: »

If he matched his P and K off take with what they are P and k they are applying like I keep harping on about he would never have run into this problem. Easy show fancy figures at the end of the year when your raping your ground. Also please get over this notion that P and K have to be in index 3 and 4. If you have land in 3 & 4 I bet the ground isnt producing big crops.

I know of a farm that was let and the soils tests were the best the renting farmer ever saw and they were done by himself so accurate. paid a decent rent and after 2 year he said the farm wouldnt grow Jack ****e

What di he put the poor performance down to, I'm sure if it was down your direction it was good ground

case 956

told at a discussion group this year that every year a dairy farm removes a bag of 10-10-20 every year from the ground, so every year you need to apply a bag of 10-10-20 just to maintain p and k. soil ferlity is the most important thing after animal fertility in my opinion, if a cow wont go in calf she no use to you, if ground doesnt grow top quality grass it not productive so extra fodder need be purchased eating into profits, too many lads rush into reseeding and think it work a miracle for them when there soil anyalis is not to scratch.... rant over

KCTK

case 956 wrote: »

told at a discussion group this year that every year a dairy farm removes a bag of 10-10-20 every year from the ground, so every year you need to apply a bag of 10-10-20 just to maintain p and k. soil ferlity is the most important thing after animal fertility in my opinion, if a cow wont go in calf she no use to you, if ground doesnt grow top quality grass it not productive so extra fodder need be purchased eating into profits, too many lads rush into reseeding and think it work a miracle for them when there soil anyalis is not to scratch.... rant over

Totally agree with you, we spared the compound here for a few years spreading just straight nitrogen and slurry. Started back spreading compounds and unreal difference, soil tests showed we were down in P. Lime P & K have to be at correct levels or reseeding is just a waste of money

bob charles

delaval wrote: »

What di he put the poor performance down to, I'm sure if it was down your direction it was good ground

Soil structure is much more important in my view. If I was going leasing a farm I would much sooner take a shovel that a soil sample. then again I dont have any mass in soil samples.

case 956

as a new entrant here the old boy didnt like spending money on p nd k on the beef side, now this year my aim was to get p and k back up to scratch and improve grass quality... so far i have spread all p and k compounds on all ground after each grazing and the grass qualitiy is phenomal now, expensive but def worth it

just do it

delaval wrote: »

Yes after a deduction of 35k(I think) for salary

Am a member. An always excellent summer tour with a discount for members. A dairy conference in Jan. Their journals are always handy for reference. Also no agendas. They hold beef and sheep events. If your into grass I recommend going to an event and then decide on membership

I really like the people I meet to be honest.

Yeah I've always liked the look of any of their events. Grass - the one and only competitive advantage we have seemingly! So the journals you mention, how often are they sent out?

I'd prefer a fee going to IGA rather than IFA but I suppose they have their role too

delaval

just do it wrote: »

Yeah I've always liked the look of any of their events. Grass - the one and only competitive advantage we have seemingly! So the journals you mention, how often are they sent out?

I'd prefer a fee going to IGA rather than IFA but I suppose they have their role too

It's non political and not a lobby group. It's all about infomation.

They have visited hi input farmers aswell so it's really about good practice

You'd never know might meet you at one

Muckit

Those days are mad expensive though. And I cant see why they have to be. Hard to justify if your part time

pms7

Yes, thought €80 was very dear.
While the farms and facts were interesting, I felt I didn't learn anything.
I thought the Moorepark open day was very good..

freedominacup

pms7 wrote: »

Yes, thought €80 was very dear.
While the farms and facts were interesting, I felt I didn't learn anything.
I thought the Moorepark open day was very good..

Nothing? not one single thing? neither of the farmers in question was doing a single thing that you aren't doing better or haven't seen done or done better before? Not one contributor or question from the crowd raised a point you hadn't thought of? You must be some operator:rolleyes:.

bob charles

freedominacup wrote: »

Nothing? not one single thing? neither of the farmers in question was doing a single thing that you aren't doing better or haven't seen done or done better before? Not one contributor or question from the crowd raised a point you hadn't thought of? You must be some operator:rolleyes:.

hi leave him alone, he is from Cork. you wont find too many snowmen down there

frazzledhome

Any one heading to Galway today.

2 really good operators

stanflt

frazzledhome wrote: »

Any one heading to Galway today.

2 really good operators

No cant make it- I heard one of last years farmers was better though😜

td5man

stanflt wrote: »

No cant make it- I heard one of last years farmers was better though😜

Thing is which one? ;-)

Bullocks

frazzledhome wrote: »

Any one heading to Galway today.

2 really good operators

No but fair play you must be bringing the dry weather with you , it's a lovely day for it

Deepsouthwest

frazzledhome wrote: »

Any one heading to Galway today.

2 really good operators

Unfortunately not, at silage,2 dryish days, so can't waste them. Would love to have been at Noel OTooles, super operator I believe, and really maxing out SR and output/ha. I'm sure u'll fill us in

Wildsurfer

stanflt wrote: »

No cant make it- I heard one of last years farmers was better though😜

So I'm guessing someone from around here was one of last years IGA featured farms? Any key take home messages from today Frazz.... Or are you still in the tent in Ballybrit?

frazzledhome

Wildsurfer wrote: »

So I'm guessing someone from around here was one of last years IGA featured farms? Any key take home messages from today Frazz.... Or are you still in the tent in Ballybrit?

For cross breeding the cow is more important that the bull

High out put per ha doesn't have to equal low soil index

It's not about the cow but the herd

Surround yourself with a good team of people

Plan every move

Milked out

frazzledhome wrote: »

For cross breeding the cow is more important that the bull

High out put per ha doesn't have to equal low soil index

It's not about the cow but the herd

Surround yourself with a good team of people

Plan every move

On first too points, surely both are equally important in breeding and on soil indexes any mention on dealing with nitrates

frazzledhome

Milked out wrote: »

On first too points, surely both are equally important in breeding and on soil indexes any mention on dealing with nitrates

If course the cow matters. I posted without context. On Henry Walshe farm he had bred from hi merit hols and had a large capacious cow well capable of putting away a lot of grub and producing kgs/ms.

My take home from there was that there's a perception that all xbreds are too small but off the correct cow they can be fine animals.

Both farms were totally focused on soil fertility as the key with no compromise on ph and really impressive P&K indeces.

Walshe goes with little and often N and with 3 rounds of 18/6/12 at 20units N per acre. Personally I felt with the land and cow he had he was leaving a bit behind as compared to Noel O Toole who'd have a more front loaded approach to N.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Milked out wrote: »

On first too points, surely both are equally important in breeding and on soil indexes any mention on dealing with nitrates

The emphasis was on growing grass on the grazing block.

Iirc, nitrogen was cut back on the replacement blocks to push grass on the grazing block.

There was an emphasis on getting the pH, P and K indices right on all the ground, though.

kevthegaff

On grazing blocks lads what are ye spreading per acre?

Buford T. Justice XIX

frazzledhome wrote: »

For cross breeding the cow is more important that the bull

High out put per ha doesn't have to equal low soil index

It's not about the cow but the herd

Surround yourself with a good team of people

Plan every move

What did you think of the two lads reluctance to put clover into any reseeds, frazzled?

Would it be something you are/thinking of doing?

Michael Walsh said he was a believer in Teagasc results but didn't believe the results of the clover trials would be applicable further north, which was a bit confusing for me, tbh.

jaymla627

kevthegaff wrote: »

On grazing blocks lads what are ye spreading per acre?

In our around 3 bags of urea and 5 bags of 18-6-12 along with 6000-8000 gallons of slurry a year here

just do it

jaymla627 wrote: »

In our around 3 bags of urea and 5 bags of 18-6-12 along with 6000-8000 gallons of slurry a year here

A few questions! Is this to maintain index 3? How much grass are you growing utilising on your grazing block? And finally is your grazing block in a reseed rotation?

jaymla627

just do it wrote: »

A few questions! Is this to maintain index 3? How much grass are you growing utilising on your grazing block? And finally is your grazing block in a reseed

Soil samples done 2 years ago had alot of ground at 3 dipping into 2 so it's to build p/k more so, would say will easily hit 13 ton utilised across all grazing block this year....
60% of grazing ground has been re seeded past three years so wouldn't be sparing pk for this reason either as new reseeds need to be feed, lime in my opinion is more important then anything over 300 ton put out the last 3 years and it's transformed the place

frazzledhome

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

What did you think of the two lads reluctance to put clover into any reseeds, frazzled?

Would it be something you are/thinking of doing?

Michael Walsh said he was a believer in Teagasc results but didn't believe the results of the clover trials would be applicable further north, which was a bit confusing for me, tbh.

I don't think clover would add anything to the game for them. I've no great love for it as its reliable in its unreliability. It's not giving anything in spring and Autumn which Is when the pressure comes on.

Walshe had a point about the clover trial being based in Clon and suggested it should be in Ballyhaise aswell for later land trial. IMV that wasn't pertinent to him as his land and climate were equal or better than Clon

I agree btw clover isn't adding much to the game on the ground but we have it in dedicated silage ground and it makes great silage but nothing for shoulders when grazing

Dawggone

frazzledhome wrote: »

I don't think clover would add anything to the game for them. I've no great love for it as its reliable in its unreliability. It's not giving anything in spring and Autumn which Is when the pressure comes on.

Walshe had a point about the clover trial being based in Clon and suggested it should be in Ballyhaise aswell for later land trial. IMV that wasn't pertinent to him as his land and climate were equal or better than Clon

I agree btw clover isn't adding much to the game on the ground but we have it in dedicated silage ground and it makes great silage but nothing for shoulders when grazing

+1.
Clover needs high temps and warm land..

Greengrass1

Grass herd in clon atm 297 kg ms
Clover + grass herd in clon atm.330 kg ms.
Clover herd was way ahead last yr too.
Hard to ignore extra MS

browned

frazzledhome wrote: »

I don't think clover would add anything to the game for them. I've no great love for it as its reliable in its unreliability. It's not giving anything in spring and Autumn which Is when the pressure comes on.

Walshe had a point about the clover trial being based in Clon and suggested it should be in Ballyhaise aswell for later land trial. IMV that wasn't pertinent to him as his land and climate were equal or better than Clon

I agree btw clover isn't adding much to the game on the ground but we have it in dedicated silage ground and it makes great silage but nothing for shoulders when grazing

I think clover would have suited walshe's farm perfectly. Dry coastal farm with good winter growth. Also with his low N usage during the summer I think he would have knock on benefits into the autumn. From what I remember it was the bloat issues that were his main concerns with using it.

Don't think clover will ever make its way to balllyhaise, Donal Patton at the Iga conference said as much. Think its considered a wet farm up there due to river flooding and as a result he said you could only put clover in certain paddocks which would increase the bloat risk.

there's a on farm clover trial currently in operation but I guess there won't be any updates on that for another few years. Personally I think clover is only suited to coastal counties where there is less risk of frost and milder winters

Buford T. Justice XIX

browned wrote: »

I think clover would have suited walshe's farm perfectly. Dry coastal farm with good winter growth. Also with his low N usage during the summer I think he would have knock on benefits into the autumn. From what I remember it was the bloat issues that were his main concerns with using it.

Don't think clover will ever make its way to balllyhaise, Donal Patton at the Iga conference said as much. Think its considered a wet farm up there due to river flooding and as a result he said you could only put clover in certain paddocks which would increase the bloat risk.

there's a on farm clover trial currently in operation but I guess there won't be any updates on that for another few years. Personally I think clover is only suited to coastal counties where there is less risk of frost and milder winters

Weren't there good results from Solohead in Tipperary with clover swards also?

Granted, it was further south than Galway but was far inland and prone to frosts

Buford T. Justice XIX

frazzledhome wrote: »

I don't think clover would add anything to the game for them. I've no great love for it as its reliable in its unreliability. It's not giving anything in spring and Autumn which Is when the pressure comes on.

Walshe had a point about the clover trial being based in Clon and suggested it should be in Ballyhaise aswell for later land trial. IMV that wasn't pertinent to him as his land and climate were equal or better than Clon

I agree btw clover isn't adding much to the game on the ground but we have it in dedicated silage ground and it makes great silage but nothing for shoulders when grazing

Wouldn't it have a place in reducing N usage in mid season but allowing that N to be moved to the shoulders?

And there is an advantage in midsummer of a higher quality sward with clover included, higher DMD swards for cattle will improve outputs.

And on bloat, we have cows going into silage ground on Sunday and it's a mass of clover. A few liters of Bloatguard or similar twice a day when bringing in the cows seems to sort out any problems, even in wet weather.

And that's the kiss of death for the weekend, surely lose one now with Bloat:(

Milked out

When stocking rates are being pushed and ground needs to be grazed early and late clover just doesn't have the ground cover in the shoulders, leads to more damage allowing docks to get in more easily, that's our experience anyway. Have put a bit in calf ground alright as it would be summer before they would be up and running anyway

Milked out

Greengrass1 wrote: »

Grass herd in clon atm 297 kg ms
Clover + grass herd in clon atm.330 kg ms.
Clover herd was way ahead last yr too.
Hard to ignore extra MS

What are turnout dates for each group and supplementation in spring and autumn? Last year being so dry would have suited clover big time esp out in clon