solicitor.still a no,no?

rodderz88

Hi all, im a qualified motor mechanic of 24 years of age seriously considering a career change. Im looking into training as a solicitor, but from what ive read from older posts (about 5or6 years old) that the profession was flooded with newly qualified solicitors failing to find work, and experienced solicitors changing careers completely. Ect ect.. have things changed for good or bad? Am I mad? Any imput greatly appreciated!

Pro Hoc Vice

Do you have a degree, if yes then with preparing for FE1's passing them getting apprenticeship and doing professional course you are looking at at least 3 to 5 years if you need to add degree add 3 years minimum, so in reality no one can answer what things will be like 3 to 8 years from now.

But I have heard it is getting a little easier, but I know solicitors over 5 years qualified who are earning less than 50k. Depending on apprenticeship you could be earning very very little for next 3 to 8 years. I also know a lot of solicitors who are either on the dole or abroad or doing a totally different job.

Cody Pomeray

Just for the avoidance of doubt, having a degree is not a requirement for solicitors.

OP to be honest things are still bleak for solicitors relative to the old days, and I don't believe the situation has improved recently.

Having said that, I don't believe anyone should make a decision based on what the economy will be doing in 10 years time. A lot of solicitors 10 years ago made that mistake. A lot of prospective solicitors would be wise not to repeat their error.

Pro Hoc Vice

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Just for the avoidance of doubt, having a degree is not a requirement for solicitors.

OP to be honest things are still bleak for solicitors relative to the old days, and I don't believe the situation has improved recently.

Having said that, I don't believe anyone should make a decision based on what the economy will be doing in 10 years time. A lot of solicitors 10 years ago made that mistake. A lot of prospective solicitors would be wise not to repeat their error.

While its not mandatory and the person has to pass the preliminary examination, it would be a very brave or foolhardy person who starts the process without any degree behind them. Having to sit the preliminary exams, plus the FE1's with out a third level education would be difficult, and would require at least a good perperation course. Considering the preliminary exam only takes place once a year it could take some time to pass them.

If someone on here has done it with out degree or perpetration course I would be mighty impressed.

Also by doing a degree (a number of colleges offer partying courses) the person would have a better idea if being a solicitor is for them.

Cody Pomeray

infosys wrote: »

While its not mandatory and the person has to pass the preliminary examination, it would be a very brave or foolhardy person who starts the process without any degree behind them. Having to sit the preliminary exams, plus the FE1's with out a third level education would be difficult

Why would it be easier coming without a degree than, say,a pass degree in arts? I don't get it...

If someone on here has done it with out degree or perpetration course I would be mighty impressed.

Have you seen the exam paper? Why would you need a degree to pass that?

http://www.lawsociety.ie/Documents/education/hbs/prelimsyllabus.pdf

Pro Hoc Vice

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Why would it be easier coming without a degree than, say,a pass degree in arts? I don't get it...

Have you seen the exam paper? Why would you need a degree to pass that?

The FE1's are difficult the profesional course is difficult. I personally believe to attempt same 5 or more years after leaving education without and of the training any degree would give even a pass degree would be difficult.

I believe the FE1's are twice a year but the preliminary exam is just once, while the subjects are easy, a person who has no experience in third level study and essay writing plus research would in my opinion be at a severe disadvantage. Not say impossible but the person is making life difficult. Also any degree does help in the later practice of law. If the OP wishes to go that route well up to him but I personally would say if you can add a degree to the mix.

http://www.lawsociety.ie/Pages/Public-Becoming-a-Solicitor-CMS/Irish-Applicants-Solicitor/Preliminary-Examination/



Yup once a year.

"The Preliminary Examination is intended to ensure that only candidates who exhibit the capacity to achieve degree level in their subsequent studies are allowed to proceed to become solicitors. The standard for the examination is set to approximate to that of a pass university degree in arts."

From http://www.lawsociety.ie/Documents/education/hbs/prelimsyllabus.pdf

I am also guessing trying to get an apprenticeship without any degree may prove difficult unless a person has family or friend in business.

Cody Pomeray

infosys wrote: »

The FE1's are difficult the profesional course is difficult. I personally believe to attempt same 5 or more years after leaving education without and of the training any degree would give even a pass degree would be difficult.

But sure people do this all the time. Kings Inns gets loads of the grey brigade, I presume Blackhall is the same. I don't think some lad with a pass degree in arts (which Blackghall say is the standard) is at any serious advantage.

a person who has no experience in third level study and essay writing plus research would in my opinion be at a severe disadvantage.

The OP is a qualified motor mechanic. Maybe you aren't familiar with what this means; it isn't some old lad who changes your oil. It requires technical training. Lots of motor mechanics will have been to 3rd level, DIT is a popular destination.


OP I fully expect you to encounter this type of attitude. Nevermind it.

Pro Hoc Vice

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

But sure people do this all the time. Kings Inns gets loads of the grey brigade, I presume Blackhall is the same. I don't think some lad with a pass degree in arts (which Blackghall say is the standard) is at any serious advantage.

The OP is a qualified motor mechanic. Maybe you aren't familiar with what this means; it isn't some old lad who changes your oil. It requires technical training. Lots of motor mechanics will have been to 3rd level, DIT is a popular destination.


OP I fully expect you to encounter this type of attitude. Nevermind it.

I would rather you did not get personal, I never said the OP should get a degree I advised in my personal opinion it would be easier.

In relation to knowing what a mechanic and his education well yes I do have first hand experience as both my father and brother are mechanics. So less of the smart Alec crap. I am not looking down on the OP I'm giving my opinion as a person who did a degree by night and did Kings Inns and as a person with many friends who did both blackhall and the inns. Also as a person who tutored Blackhall.

Cody Pomeray

OK... I didn't make it personal, that rant did.

See OP? Blackhall and the Inns and this is the merit of the dialogue. You'll be grand.

Pro Hoc Vice

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

OK... I didn't make it personal, that rant did.

See OP? Blackhall and the Inns and this is the merit of the dialogue. You'll be grand.

"OP I fully expect you to encounter this type of attitude. Nevermind it."

That was personal, I gave my advice, not attitude, no more for some reason you took umbridge at that advice again I know not why. My advice as I assume yours is based on personal experience. If the OP wishes to do it with or with out a degree I wish him the best of luck. With a motor mechanic background he is at a advantage in the practice of law. Just as a person who trained as an accountant, or a doctor etc.. BTW none of my post have been a rant.

If the OP after reading the syllabus I posted feels he can have a good crack at the exam and feels the same about the rest cool. Instead of taking upto 8 years its about 4 my original point still stands no one knows how the profession will be then for Newley qualified. I still say the finding of an apprenticeship will be more difficult without an undergrad degree (not impossible) but more difficult.

Cody Pomeray

It's worth noting that you raised his education, the OP has not doubted his ability, he's asking about the financial side of things.

I'm out of this thread. Seriously guys someone needs to do something about the tone of this forum. Probably not the thread to raise it but I really wonder what passers by think of the place.

Pro Hoc Vice

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

It's worth noting that you raised his education, the OP has not doubted his ability, he's asking about the financial side of things.

I'm out of this thread. Seriously guys someone needs to do something about the tone of this forum. Probably not the thread to raise it but I really wonder what passers by think of the place.

Bye. The OP seemed to like the exchange as he thanked us both. So the only person with an issue is not him or me.

BTW OP best of luck with what ever choice you make the law can be a wonderful place to work.

rodderz88

I would like to thank everyone that posted on my thread,much appreciated. I dont have a degree and I do realise that re educating myself at this stage would take a huge commitment..
But where there's will there's a way. Nevertheless I doubt there was any insult intended, nor any taken. So once again rhanks for everyones imput

Pro Hoc Vice

rodderz88 wrote: »

I would like to thank everyone that posted on my thread,much appreciated. I dont have a degree and I do realise that re educating myself at this stage would take a huge commitment..
But where there's will there's a way. Nevertheless I doubt there was any insult intended, nor any taken. So once again rhanks for everyones imput

If you know any solicitors, might be an idea to see if you can during some holiday get a bit of work experience. A solicitor with a good bit of road traffic accidents or does a bit of road traffic criminal law, might be interesting, as you would have experience.

If your out of work, or an arrange more time off, you could also see if you could get experience with a motor assessor, seriously there is very few doing it.

johnnyskeleton

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Why would it be easier coming without a degree than, say,a pass degree in arts? I don't get it...

Have you seen the exam paper? Why would you need a degree to pass that?

http://www.lawsociety.ie/Documents/education/hbs/prelimsyllabus.pdf

I assume infosys was talking about starting fe1s/blackhall without a law degree, diploma or prep course. He wasn't saying you need a degree to complete the preliminary exam.

As to why a law degree is better than say an arts degree, several years of familiarizing yourself with case law and legal discipline is obviously of assistance when it comes to qualifying as a solicitor. It is not mandatory, but no one is saying it is. The point being made is that it is of considerable benefit and, some would say, it is somewhat foolhardy to do the preliminary exams, fe1s, ppcs and enter practise without any formal legal education. I think that's a valid point.

Pro Hoc Vice

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I assume infosys was talking about starting fe1s/blackhall without a law degree, diploma or prep course. He wasn't saying you need a degree to complete the preliminary exam.

As to why a law degree is better than say an arts degree, several years of familiarizing yourself with case law and legal discipline is obviously of assistance when it comes to qualifying as a solicitor. It is not mandatory, but no one is saying it is. The point being made is that it is of considerable benefit and, some would say, it is somewhat foolhardy to do the preliminary exams, fe1s, ppcs and enter practise without any formal legal education. I think that's a valid point.

Exactly what I was trying to say.

LegalEagleCork

I think you obviously want this a lot if you're still considering it so in cases like that I always imagine myself on my death bed- if I was on my death bed would I regret not doing this? Of course it also depends on your finances and personal circumstances.

Go in with your eyes open. Law is a tough thankless task master these days for the best of people. My advice? take THE most direct route and qualify asap, don't bother with the degree or the masters, they'll only wear you out and a law degree is not a big deal, it gets you nowhere, law is not that hard, you'll be well able for the FE1s, take a full year out to study, there are loads of resources that can help, prep courses, internet etc-if you don't have any ties, look into qualifying in the UK, I'm not sure about their process but the job market would be a little better and since you're starting from scratch anyway it may make sense to qualify there or another jurisdiction instead.

Good luck!

Pro Hoc Vice

LegalEagleCork wrote: »

I think you obviously want this a lot if you're still considering it so in cases like that I always imagine myself on my death bed- if I was on my death bed would I regret not doing this? Of course it also depends on your finances and personal circumstances.

Go in with your eyes open. Law is a tough thankless task master these days for the best of people. My advice? take THE most direct route and qualify asap, don't bother with the degree or the masters, they'll only wear you out and a law degree is not a big deal, it gets you nowhere, law is not that hard, you'll be well able for the FE1s, take a full year out to study, there are loads of resources that can help, prep courses, internet etc-if you don't have any ties, look into qualifying in the UK, I'm not sure about their process but the job market would be a little better and since you're starting from scratch anyway it may make sense to qualify there or another jurisdiction instead.

Good luck!

England and wales would be far harder than here http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/careers/becoming-a-solicitor/routes-to-qualifying/ getting apprenticeship from what I have heard even more difficult, the English and Welsh system if memory serves, is that you do all the study exams etc. first and then when finished you start apprenticeship. Interesting article here, http://www.lawgazette.co.uk/features/apprenticeships-job

Another issue with England & Wales, is a NQ solicitor does not have automatic rights of Audience in all courts unlike Ireland.

Not sure about the Scotish system. Some info here http://www.lawscot.org.uk/education-and-careers/studying-law/how-to-become-a-scottish-solicitor-/alternative-routes-to-qualification

Qualification in the USA requires a degree from a recognised institution, if I remember and passing of the Bar exams.

chops018

Procedural Law is hugely different to academic law. No need to go off getting a law degree to become a Solicitor in my opinion. A Barrister however you do need an accredited law degree.

If I'd have known you only needed a level 8 degree to become a Solicitor when choosing courses back in 6th year I don't think I'd have done law. In saying that I did fall in love with a lot of academic law, and I absolutely loved every minute of my Masters.

green_bow

op , I know quite a few solicitors , my sister is one

one thing I can tell you is the earnings potential for most law practitioners is a lot less than public perception suggests , the average solicitor in Ireland would be on considerabley less than the average guard for example

McCrack

As a practising solicitor I can say that the job depends very little on what you studied at third level even if it's law. Practice and academics are two very different things.

The Law Society's professional courses are supposed (and I use that term loosely) to prepare trainees for practice. That's the vocational aspect.

In reality you learn to become a lawyer from the job and it takes many years, long after you run out of Blackhall with your parchment.

So the OP I would say get experience in a solicitors office to get a feel for the job, and if its still something you want to pursue then get straight into the FE1s (after the prelim exam).

Whirlie

Hi, I am just wondering has the OP made a decision, or looked into it anymore since last posting? This is something I am also strongly considering at the moment. My situation is that I am 33, 7 years working in retail banking. I don't enjoy my job, and feel if I am going to retrain for another career I should start soon. The law is something I have always been interested in, and I regretted choosing Arts over Law in college. I have a degree, English and Computer Science, 2002. I have also gained a banking qualification in last few years. Obviously the level of study for that was nowhere near what would be required for the FE1s, but at least I'm not coming to it completely green.
Just wondering if it is a mad plan, much like the OP I suppose. Would my experience in financial services stand to me when looking for a training contract, or is it a non-starter without a law degree? Particularly when so many With law degrees are still struggling?
Any thoughts appreciated!

Pro Hoc Vice

Whirlie wrote: »

Hi, I am just wondering has the OP made a decision, or looked into it anymore since last posting? This is something I am also strongly considering at the moment. My situation is that I am 33, 7 years working in retail banking. I don't enjoy my job, and feel if I am going to retrain for another career I should start soon. The law is something I have always been interested in, and I regretted choosing Arts over Law in college. I have a degree, English and Computer Science, 2002. I have also gained a banking qualification in last few years. Obviously the level of study for that was nowhere near what would be required for the FE1s, but at least I'm not coming to it completely green.
Just wondering if it is a mad plan, much like the OP I suppose. Would my experience in financial services stand to me when looking for a training contract, or is it a non-starter without a law degree? Particularly when so many With law degrees are still struggling?
Any thoughts appreciated!

Two options,

1 do one of the FE prep courses, if you are still working it is still doable. Then do FE1's all going well should be 3 - 5 years to qualification. Your background could stand to you in search for apprentiship but a lot will depend on what exactly you did in bank.

2 do the dip in the Kings Inns 2 year course in the evening. Then entrance exam either 2 year part time degree barrister at law or 1 year full time total time 4-5 years including devilling. Again depending on experience in Bank and contacts there could be an advantage.

Whirlie

Thanks for response Infosys. If I do it would be option 1 you discussed, FE1s and apprenticeship. I am going to mull it over for a little while yet, although realistically if I am going to have a go at 4 next March should probably already be making a start!!!
Not working is not an option for me so will have to study evenings and weekends but don't see that is being an issue. I am bored rigid with my work, I looked for a transfer 18 months ago for non-work reasons. To be fair, the bank facilitated me quickly but it meant going from an interesting, varied and challenging role to utter drudgery. Pay unaffected but so deadened from it that the thoughts of getting stuck into study in the evenings is pretty great!!!!!
Just have to be brave enough to commit!

chops018

Whirlie wrote: »

Thanks for response Infosys. If I do it would be option 1 you discussed, FE1s and apprenticeship. I am going to mull it over for a little while yet, although realistically if I am going to have a go at 4 next March should probably already be making a start!!!
Not working is not an option for me so will have to study evenings and weekends but don't see that is being an issue. I am bored rigid with my work, I looked for a transfer 18 months ago for non-work reasons. To be fair, the bank facilitated me quickly but it meant going from an interesting, varied and challenging role to utter drudgery. Pay unaffected but so deadened from it that the thoughts of getting stuck into study in the evenings is pretty great!!!!!
Just have to be brave enough to commit!

If you have a degree in English and Computer Science why not look into the 2 year part time course in Hibernia to be a Secondary School Teacher? Or is it law you really want to do?