Kerosene mix in a diesel engine

d reilly

Hi All

I am slightly new to this book, can i get advice on using a mixture of kerosene in a diesel engine.

My vehicle is a citroen belingio, 1560cc hdi engine. It is a 2007 model.

I know there maybe some legal reasons why you can't but is there any engine reasons why.

If it can run what % of veg oil/diesel/eng oil/ 2 stroke oil needs to be mixed.

Has anyone tried this before and if so i would love to hear your experiences.

corkgsxr

It'll **** its pump. The pump needs to make 1500 bar for the fuel rail. Tolerances are very tight. Not advisable

bazz26

Not on a modern day common rail diesel anyway. I'd imagine it will make ****e of your fuel pump and injectors.

I wouldn't even talk about it around a 1.6 HDi engine which is a common rail unit.

dgt

Just no

d reilly

Thanks for the advice so far 3 reasons not to do it.

YbFocus

Used to do it on my old passat but on a hdi, it'll blow up within a week. Don't do it.

Matt Simis

d reilly wrote: »

Thanks for the advice so far 3 reasons not to do it.

None of those guys (bar maybe DGT!) actually tried it though! I did, on a Common Rail, remapped and its reputation as an excellent and clean fuel is well deserved! I mixed 60% Kero, 38% Diesel and the rest Veg Oil.

Its draw backs versus diesel as a straight fuel:

- Burns slightly hotter (as dues LPG compared to petrol)
- Lower lubricity

You can tackle the lubricity with the addition of 2-stroke, Veg Oil (1litre per tank) or Dipetane (not cost effective most likely). I used Veg Oil, Id consider ash-less 2 stroke in the future if I was to retry it. The slight increase in combustion temp is usually considered to be within tolerances (noting Im referring to a mix, not straight Kero).


Its benefits are:

- Less smoke
- Cleaner from an emissions point of view, less coking of EGR, Injector nozzles etc. Will clean the engine/exhaust too.
- Less viscous fluid meaning it injects (atomises) better, not worse, in common rail/diesel in general injectors delivering more power, faster response and smoother sounding idle.
- Vastly cheaper (though if marked with a dye not technically legal to use on public roads)


PS: I cant imagine a modern DPF will tolerate kero in the exhaust, though DPFs are total $hit and should be removed anyhow.

Marlow

Winter diesel is nothing else than diesel + kero. I'm not sure on the mix, but it's nothing different.

So, most above are wrong. But you need to get your mix right, otherwise your injectors aren't happy.

/M

dgt

Matt Simis wrote: »

(bar maybe DGT!)

You know me to well

And as someone who roots with pumps often enough I can safely say on a system that atomises fuel at over 25000 bar, with all the moving parts to compress it that much, the lubrication required (which kero doesn't have much of) it's just asking for trouble.

So no, don't do it

corkgsxr

dgt wrote: »

You know me to well

And as someone who roots with pumps often enough I can safely say on a system that atomises fuel at over 25000 bar, with all the moving parts to compress it that much, the lubrication required (which kero doesn't have much of) it's just asking for trouble.

So no, don't do it

psi isnt it?

the pump is the main issue. the tolerances are too fine to take a chunk less lubrication

Bandara

Can we lock this before Derry comes along ?


Pleaseeeeee?

Max Power1

Hammertime wrote: »

Can we lock this before Derry comes along ?


Pleaseeeeee?

Or before Mad_Lad suggests a prius or converting to lpg?

dgt

corkgsxr wrote: »

psi isnt it?

the pump is the main issue. the tolerances are too fine to take a chunk less lubrication

psi it is, my mind is elsewhere today :pac:

Bpmull

Out of all engine just don't do it.

corkgsxr

dgt wrote: »

psi it is, my mind is elsewhere today :pac:

ah there both ridiculous numbers anyway.


i breathed a sigh of relief as my 1.6hdi berlingo drove away. nearly **** myself when he rang 3 weeks later. (turns out just ownership taking its time and he wanted to make sure i sent it, second sigh of relief)

mathepac

Matt Simis wrote: »

...
- Vastly cheaper (though if marked with a dye not technically legal to use on public roads) ....

So when is it legal to use kerosene (marked or unmarked) in a vehicle on public roads?

CiniO

mathepac wrote: »

So when is it legal to use kerosene (marked or unmarked) in a vehicle on public roads?

What about below?

Marlow wrote: »

Winter diesel is nothing else than diesel + kero. I'm not sure on the mix, but it's nothing different.

mathepac

CiniO wrote: »

What about below?

So what about it? Do you think it's true / accurate / legal / common practice? Does it answer my question?

CiniO

mathepac wrote: »

So what about it? Do you think it's true / accurate / legal / common practice? Does it answer my question?

I don't know!
That why there was question mark after what I said.

You asked when is it legal to use kerosane on public roads.
Marlow said earlier that winter diesel consisted of kerosane.
I just quoted him, as this partly answers your question if thats true.

mathepac

I'd already read that post and dismissed it as nonsense which is why I asked the legality question originally.

Chimaera

From a legal point of view, you must pay fuel duty at the appropriate rate in order to use it. This will be higher than the rate charged on heating oil which is the most usual source of kerosene.

From an operational point of view it's got poor lubricity compared to diesel. You'll need an additive to bring this up. Biodiesel is the best for this if you can get it. You'll also see reduced power on kerosene as it has lower calorific value than diesel.

CiniO

mathepac wrote: »

I'd already read that post and dismissed it as nonsense which is why I asked the legality question originally.

What additives are used then for winter diesel?

jimgoose

CiniO wrote: »

What additives are used then for winter diesel?

Various blends of "aliphatic" hydrocarbons, mainly - methane and his cousins.

Be very careful using anything in diesel for a modern setup - as well as doing a mint of damage to the fuel system a stuck injector (caused by inadequate lubricity, like) can wash down a cylinder wall in no time flat and cause an actual seizure.

Matt Simis

mathepac wrote: »

So when is it legal to use kerosene (marked or unmarked) in a vehicle on public roads?

Well spotted.. :P Im slightly playing with words there, the specific text of the law refers to marked oils, ie Red Kero and Green diesel. Of course, you cannot use non-duty paid "any-thing-as-fuel" regardless, but I didnt quite want to make it as blunt as to say.. suggest getting UK (Norn Iron) unmarked Kero for whatever reasons one sees fit.

kincaid

Matt Simis wrote: »

None of those guys (bar maybe DGT!) actually tried it though! I did, on a Common Rail, remapped and its reputation as an excellent and clean fuel is well deserved! I mixed 60% Kero, 38% Diesel and the rest Veg Oil.

Its draw backs versus diesel as a straight fuel:

- Burns slightly hotter (as dues LPG compared to petrol)
- Lower lubricity

You can tackle the lubricity with the addition of 2-stroke, Veg Oil (1litre per tank) or Dipetane (not cost effective most likely). I used Veg Oil, Id consider ash-less 2 stroke in the future if I was to retry it. The slight increase in combustion temp is usually considered to be within tolerances (noting Im referring to a mix, not straight Kero).


Its benefits are:

- Less smoke
- Cleaner from an emissions point of view, less coking of EGR, Injector nozzles etc. Will clean the engine/exhaust too.
- Less viscous fluid meaning it injects (atomises) better, not worse, in common rail/diesel in general injectors delivering more power, faster response and smoother sounding idle.
- Vastly cheaper (though if marked with a dye not technically legal to use on public roads)


PS: I cant imagine a modern DPF will tolerate kero in the exhaust, though DPFs are total $hit and should be removed anyhow.

so with a mix of 60% kero and then if stopped and dipped by the customs you would surely be in for a hefty fine i believe

derry

YUM YUM
fact the older diesel engines non common rail can run kero
My friend ran his Toyota Carina Diesel car non common rail car for 200,000 kilometers no issues on 100% kero
The dreaded lack of lubrication for these types of car if it effects the injection pumps repair kits are typically ~€100 cheaper than new pumps typically at €1000

This is to be expected as the majority of diesel engines made in the past non common rail are also used as Kerosene powered electric generators and so were often to run on 100% kero or 100% diesel

kero fuel is basically 7 parts paraffin one part petrol

With modern common rail engines there is all sorts of extra problems

My best guess is apart from issues for the PTF these require the fuel to be sulfer content less than ~10PPM or the high sulfur content will kill the PTF . Kero fuels best i can tell is high sulfur 50PPM fuel and isn't sold generally to be less than ~50PPM .If you remove the PTF and put it back on for the NCT and switch back to normal diesel then that would cure that issue .
If as they said winter fuel is containing kero then customs dipping the tank apart from fuel color markers I cant see how they would be able to tell easily what mix is in there so using mixed batches of the two fuels might probably fool them.

Best I can tell higher kero content will return less MPG , much less lubrication for the important parts in common rail engines designed to get lubrication from the diesel fuel . Also this Kero fuel burns much hotter so engines in summer heat can more easily over heat .Adding bio fuel is a major problem for the common rail engines if your not doing steady fast speed motor way driving .In the common rail engine the fuel not used in the common rail is sent back to the fuel tank.In fast motor way traveling most fuel in the common rail will be used and less will return to tank .In city traffic less fuel; is used and much more fuel is sent back to the fuel tank . The problem is the common rail exposes the diesel fuel to lots of heat .The heated up bio fuel in the diesel mix becomes unstable and makes crystals that erode the engine and encourages growths of algae in the tanks and engine parts . Irish fuel from fuel station always now has at least 7% bio fuel .This is to replace the lost lubrication from the sulfur extraction process . City traffic will send bad fuel back to the tank and over time cause problems for common rail diesel cars .Bio fuels not treated properly eg straight from the chipper pan or chipper pan bottles will be more acidic and lack the correct cetane level ~55 which car diesel engines need to work with and cause other problems . Treating bio fuel with methanol and adding correct alkaline materials to remove acid is messy stuff .
The modern common rail engines are fairly fragile compared to the older non common rail engines .They have been made to cope with third world regions where the kero content in diesels is often high , but those regions don't require the use of PTF unlike the EU. You really need to know all the components in your engine and what the specs are for all fuels that they are made to run with all the way from the tank to the engine before experimenting.
If for example you put green Diesel in the modern car with green diesels higher sulfur content there is a good risk the PTF will be broken as result .

The real world is that use of kero is classed as illegal along with any non tax fuel like green diesel 'and fro modern common rail engines probably not worth the risk to use from destroying the engine or getting some fines for using non taxed fuels

In fact if tomorrow you invented a car that ran on water and they found out they would looks for the tax back that you deprive them of and demand you give them some €0.60cents of tax for each liter of water you used to make your car go as road cars must the government says pay the correct tax on the fuels they use .Even if that water was urine from when you peed into tank they would still want that tax to be paid .

Less risky and more effective solutions exist like get petrol car and convert it to LPG and save the most money for each mile and still be cheaper than risking using 10% kero or using green diesel fuel.

For motor way drivers there does exist LPG solutions for diesel car where 60% of the fuel is LPG and 40% is diesel fuel and has less risks to damage engines in the fragile common rail engines .However they don't sell these LPG solutions in your local garage yest you need to search the net to find those . These LPG solutions are not very good for changing traffic like town traffic. They only work for diesel engines in steady speed motor way traffic all to do with the fact there is no spark plugs to ignite the LPG fuels in diesel engines .


Kerosene can also work but not very well in petrol engines .The fuel has to be pre heated to make it explode and it carbonizes the engine very quickly due to the high soot content .The modern cars CAT will clog up very quickly with kero fuel .Also there is 20% power drop compared to petrol. Marine Outboard engines are sold which burn petrol and kero fuels and they start on petrol and switch over to paraffin or kero fuels when the engine is hot .

In the second world war many tractors used TVO tractor vapor oil fuels (basically paraffin and petrol mix ) .The tractors were ~12;1 compression ratio engines with spark plugs and could run basically on petrol paraffin kerosene and even on paraffin and diesel fuels mixed together .The harder the tractor would work like for ploughing the more paraffin fuels in the mix .For going from A to B light loads the more petrol fuels in the mix .

Mixing 1 part petrol to ~6 parts diesel oil will make a type of fuel similar to kerosene sometimes used for jet engines electric generators when kerosene supplies are not readily available

Modern diesel engines higher compression of ~16:1 makes the diesel fuel work best for power in these engines . For using kerosene lower compression ratios engines like ~12:1 would work better for these fuels . Modern petrol cars work best with compression ratio of ~10:1 but older 1960s petrol cars using leaded petrol would work better on compression ratios of ~12;1.LPG works best with compression ratio of 30:1 but will work well with lower rates like car 10:1. Ethanol will work best with compression rates of 22:1 but works OK with cars 10:1 ratios.Using a fuel with the incorrect compression ratio can risk sometimes to damage engines or reduce MPG or both .



Derry