Car backtax

celica1994

Hey, question..

I need to put my car back on the road tomorrow, been off the road since march, the tax has been out since march also, can I still go to the garda station to back tax the car?

also, I had used the car once in the off the road period and went through a toll bridge, does that appear on the garda system or is it just if the car has been reported as being stopped at any stage?

Sam Kade

celica1994 wrote: »

Hey, question..

I need to put my car back on the road tomorrow, been off the road since march, the tax has been out since march also, can I still go to the garda station to back tax the car?

also, I had used the car once in the off the road period and went through a toll bridge, does that appear on the garda system or is it just if the car has been reported as being stopped at any stage?

Just get a garda to sign the form to declare it off the road and tax it form the 1st of August.

It doesn't make a difference a lot of people were fined for no tax and went to the Garda station and got the form stamped and never paid back tax.

That's all changing from the 1st of September.

celica1994

cheers for the reply,

yea gonna go the garda station tomorrow, that new system tho is a joke, you have to declare it off the road a few weeks previous to it going off the road, sure what happens if your car breaks down, do you notify them in advance of yer car breaking down? lol

Sam Kade

Hold it, I just checked it out the new system started from the 1st of July :eek: the Gardaí have nothing more to do wit it. Looks like you will have to pay the arrears
http://www.waterfordcity.ie/documents/misc/Gapping%20QA.pdf

celica1994

yea but that system doesn't kick in for another month or two

celica1994

from the motortax site -

Vehicle off the road

New procedures are being introduced for declaring a vehicle is temporarily off the road so that you do not have to pay motor tax for that period.

From 1 October 2013 you are required to declare in advance that your vehicle will be off the road and not in use for a period of between 3 and 12 months using Declaration of Non-Use of a Motor Vehicle Form RF150 (pdf), which you submit to your motor tax office. The declaration of non-use must be made in the same month that your current motor tax disc expires. If arrears in motor tax are due these must be paid in full and you must also pay a minimum of 3 months motor tax, before a declaration of non-use can be made.

Before 1 October 2013, if you want to declare your vehicle off the road the procedure you must follow depends on the circumstances:
•If your vehicle has been off the road and you want to put it back on the road, you needed a Garda to witness your signature to the statement on Motor Tax Renewal Form RF100A (pdf) or Change of Particulars Form RF111 (pdf) that your vehicle had not been in use in a public place, when renewing your motor tax.
•If you have been using your vehicle and now want to take it off the road, you must follow the new procedure using Form RF150.
•If your vehicle has been off the road and you want to continue to keep it off the road, you must submit to your motor tax office
– Form RF100A or Form RF111, witnessed by a Garda and declaring the period it has been off the road
– Form RF150 declaring the period it will be off the road in the future.

CiniO

celica1994 wrote: »

cheers for the reply,

yea gonna go the garda station tomorrow, that new system tho is a joke, you have to declare it off the road a few weeks previous to it going off the road, sure what happens if your car breaks down, do you notify them in advance of yer car breaking down? lol

Nonsense.

From October on, you will be able to declare car off the road with effect from next month, assuming tax expires on that month.
So f.e. if your tax expires on last day of November, and you don't want to pay tax for December and on, then you have to make declaration in November.
Earliest you can declare it will be off the road from December is 1st November, and latest is 30th of November.

JohnBoy26

CiniO wrote: »

Nonsense.

From October on, you will be able to declare car off the road with effect from next month, assuming tax expires on that month.
So f.e. if your tax expires on last day of November, and you don't want to pay tax for December and on, then you have to make declaration in November.
Earliest you can declare it will be off the road from December is 1st November, and latest is 30th of November.

Exactly this. The only major flaws with the new system is the very little amount of time given(10 days from date of sale) to declare a car you have just purchased as being of the road. You will need a log book to do this which can take two weeks to arrive. The other flaw imo is limiting it to 12 month periods.

The one major benefit of the new system is that a declared off the road car can be put back on the road by simply just taxing it. No more going down to the local garda station having to explain the reasons why your car was off the road.

CiniO

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Exactly this. The only major flaws with the new system is the very little amount of time given(10 days from date of sale) to declare a car you have just purchased as being of the road. You will need a log book to do this which can take two weeks to arrive.

Are you sure you need a logbook to make a declaration?
Why not just fill the details, skip registration cert number on the form and submit it like that?

The other flaw imo is limiting it to 12 month periods.

You have to renew the declaration every 12 months - annoying indeed

The one major benefit of the new system is that a declared off the road car can be put back on the road by simply just taxing it. No more going down to the local garda station having to explain the reasons why your car was off the road.

You never had to explain anything at the garda station.
All they were doing was witnessing your signature.

JohnBoy26

CiniO wrote: »

Are you sure you need a logbook to make a declaration?
Why not just fill the details, skip registration cert number on the form and submit it like that?


You have to renew the declaration every 12 months - annoying indeed



You never had to explain anything at the garda station.
All they were doing was witnessing your signature.

I was always of the understanding that the declaration form will be sent back to you if all relevant details are not submitted. E.g the details on the log book.

As for the Garda station, I have always been asked why my car was off the road. It's not a problem being asked as such but I always found it a little intimidating having to explain to a garda why my car has been off the road with the garda staring back at me as if I've done something wrong.

However the real point I was trying to make was that it's much less hassle to just have to go to one place to declare your car back on the road.

CiniO

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

I was always of the understanding that the declaration form will be sent back to you if all relevant details are not submitted. E.g the details on the log book.

As for the Garda station, I have always been asked why my car was off the road. It's not a problem being asked as such but I always found it a little intimidating having to explain to a garda why my car has been off the road with the garda staring back at me as if I've done something wrong.

However the real point I was trying to make was that it's much less hassle to just have to go to one place to declare your car back on the road.

It's going to be even better when we'll be able to declare it on-line.

Anyway - For garda question - why the car was off the road - anyone can answer that its non of their business.

corktina

two things you can do here...read the stickie, or listen to Clinio....both will put you on the right track

Most of the other info posted on here is wildly inaccurate

I can't understand how so many people prefer to listen to the guy down the pub instead of reading the correct stuff (such as celeica1994 posted earleir)

I did my two cars weeks ago, simple and painless procedure....just posted in the forms, got a receipt back

Sam Kade

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

I was always of the understanding that the declaration form will be sent back to you if all relevant details are not submitted. E.g the details on the log book.

As for the Garda station, I have always been asked why my car was off the road. It's not a problem being asked as such but I always found it a little intimidating having to explain to a garda why my car has been off the road with the garda staring back at me as if I've done something wrong.

However the real point I was trying to make was that it's much less hassle to just have to go to one place to declare your car back on the road.

So you were declaring your car off the road fairly often then.

Sam Kade

corktina wrote: »

two things you can do here...read the stickie, or listen to Clinio....both will put you on the right track

Most of the other info posted on here is wildly inaccurate

I can't understand how so many people prefer to listen to the guy down the pub instead of reading the correct stuff (such as celeica1994 posted earleir)

I did my two cars weeks ago, simple and painless procedure....just posted in the forms, got a receipt back

Who the fcuk is Clinio?

JohnBoy26

Sam Kade wrote: »

So you were declaring your car off the road fairly often then.

Am no only about four times in the last six years with different cars.

JohnBoy26

corktina wrote: »

two things you can do here...read the stickie, or listen to Clinio....both will put you on the right track

Most of the other info posted on here is wildly inaccurate

I can't understand how so many people prefer to listen to the guy down the pub instead of reading the correct stuff (such as celeica1994 posted earleir)

I did my two cars weeks ago, simple and painless procedure....just posted in the forms, got a receipt back

Listen to cinio? Are you saying we should send in the declaration form without the relevant log book details filled in? And are you also saying when asked we should tell a garda that it's none of their buisness why the vehicle was off the road.

They are both bad pieces of advice imo.

Needles73

"off the road since march"....through toll bridge once......".Am I the only fool who keeps his car tax up to date

colm_mcm

Yep, the rf100a covers the past. New form covers the future.

CiniO

Sam Kade wrote: »

So you were declaring your car off the road fairly often then.

What's wrong with declaring car off the road fairly often?

CiniO

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Listen to cinio? Are you saying we should send in the declaration form without the relevant log book details filled in?

What else do you propose?
You said yourself in most cases it takes more than 10 days for logbook to arrive, so what other option have we got?
If you don't give the declaration to them within 10 days, you will have to pay tax for 3 months at least, even if you are not using the car.

Do you have any better advice, than giving them declaration without logbook number?

And are you also saying when asked we should tell a garda that it's none of their buisness why the vehicle was off the road.

Is it their business?
Everyone can keep their vehicle off the road for whatever reason they want, without having to confess to the gardai

They are both bad pieces of advice imo.

Why?

regress

It was a loophole that I and many others have availabled of for years. Never had my car taxed for more than 3 months a year. Saved me a lot if money. Having form stamped was a formality. Never once got asked anything by gardai at station.

No issue with loophole being closed though. Even if having to pay car tax for full year from now on is just another additional expense.

CiniO

regress wrote: »

It was a loophole that I and many others have availabled of for years. Never had my car taxed for more than 3 months a year. Saved me a lot if money. Having form stamped was a formality. Never once got asked anything by gardai at station.

No issue with loophole being closed though. Even if having to pay car tax for full year from now on is just another additional expense.

I don't think it was a loophole.

In my understanding of loophole is f.e. when you can work things around to avoid paying legally.
This was not the case.

If you were avoiding paying motortax by driving and declaring it was off the road, then you were clearly making false declarations and you were braking the law. No loopholes here.


Way of declaring have changed now, but I don't think it will change much.
People who drove without tax will keep doing it.

corktina

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Listen to cinio? Are you saying we should send in the declaration form without the relevant log book details filled in? And are you also saying when asked we should tell a garda that it's none of their buisness why the vehicle was off the road.

They are both bad pieces of advice imo.

what details are in the book that aren't on the car? You don't need to tell the gard anything, he's just witnessing your signature


CiniO...spelling mistake sorry

regress

CiniO wrote: »

I don't think it was a loophole.

In my understanding of loophole is f.e. when you can work things around to avoid paying legally.
This was not the case.

If you were avoiding paying motortax by driving and declaring it was off the road, then you were clearly making false
declarations and you were braking the law. No loopholes here.

Way of declaring have changed now, but I don't think it will change much.
People who drove without tax will keep doing it.

The loophole was you could declare your car off road retrospectively. I could drive car for 7 months and provided I had not come to the attention of gardai could then go and say that car was off road for those seven months. There was no way for gardai to know that it wasn't so they had to stamp form.

Having to declare it off road in advance changes that. Now I either have to declare it off road in advance which means I'm in trouble if stopped or else pay arrears once I go to tax it.

Loophole closed.

corktina

regress wrote: »

The loophole was you could declare your car off road retrospectively. I could drive car for 7 months and provided I had not come to the attention of gardai could then go and say that car was off road for those seven months. There was no way for gardai to know that it wasn't so they had to stamp form.

Having to declare it off road in advance changes that. Now I either have to declare it off road in advance which means I'm in trouble if stopped or else pay arrears once I go to tax it.

Loophole closed.

CliniO's point was that you werent using a loophole to avoid the tax without breaking the law, you were actually breaking the law

colm_mcm

moved posts back to original thread

Hope it makes more sense now

regress

corktina wrote: »

CliniO's point was that you werent using a loophole to avoid the tax without breaking the law, you were actually breaking the law

Technically yes. But if I was caught I just had to pay arrears to retrospectically have car taxed. Never happened though. I was stopped at checkpoints and waved on numerous times over the years despite having no valid tax disc.

Guy:Incognito

regress wrote: »

Technically yes.

No, actually breaking it.

The same as if you were a taxi driver and then at the end of the tax year told them you earned money all year.

CiniO

regress wrote: »

The loophole was you could declare your car off road retrospectively. I could drive car for 7 months and provided I had not come to the attention of gardai could then go and say that car was off road for those seven months. There was no way for gardai to know that it wasn't so they had to stamp form.

Imagine Joe is going to supermarket. He takes a lucozade from the shelf straight into his pocket, and then he runs near the till with empty trolley, saying to cashier that he didn't buy anything.

Now - Joe is back home and enjoys his lucozade which he got for free. Did he use the loophole, or did he steal the lucozade?

Now the analogy.
Going to supermarket is like owning a car.
Taking a lucozade from the shelf is like driving.
Going through the till with empty trolley is declaring the car off the road.

Joe was lucky.
He could have been seen by someone putting lucozade into the pocket in the shop (he could have been caught driving). But then he would just say that he did it by mistake and eventually put it into the trolley to pay for it (analogy to being caught by gard in untaxed car in which case he would have to pay tax).
Once he wasn't caught putting it into the pocket, he took another risks. He could have been caught at the till by security which checked cameras, same as someone can be caught at garda station when making false declaration.

IMHO all this is pretty much the same. It's not a loophole. Declaring car off the road while it wasn't really, is the same as stealing. It's against the law. No loopholes here.


Only reason why people did it that much, was because there was virtually no enforcement.
No one was checking if those cars declared were really off the road.
Fines for driving untaxed were tiny - like what is it - 60 quid for driving a car untaxed, while tax costs 1500 quid? How is going to pay the tax then?

Having to declare it off road in advance changes that. Now I either have to declare it off road in advance which means I'm in trouble if stopped or else pay arrears once I go to tax it.

Loophole closed.

I don't think so.
Enforcement is still not here.
People might just not bother declaring the car, and still keep driving for next few years without being stopped.

Even if they declare it off the road and are caught, they can always come out with a story that car was really off the road, and it was emergency that they had to start using it today. They wanted to tax it, but tax office was close.
Come on - this is Ireland, and new "loophole closed" will not change a thing.

JohnBoy26

CiniO wrote: »

What else do you propose?
You said yourself in most cases it takes more than 10 days for logbook to arrive, so what other option have we got?
If you don't give the declaration to them within 10 days, you will have to pay tax for 3 months at least, even if you are not using the car.

I propose the same as motortax.ie, and that is to tell the seller to send off the log book asap. I would be only hoping and praying that it arrives within ten days.

You don't really have any other options other than to wait and fill the form out properly when it arrives as you need to fill in the ''Vehicle Registration Certificate'' space on the form along with all the other details.

Even if you were to leave this space blank(as you propose) and send off the declaration with all the rest off your details the declaration will still be sent back to you as all the info on the log book must correspond with the information on the declaration form. As the log book has yet to be processed details on both won't be the same with the department of transport still having the previous owners details on the system.
''The declaration must be completed and furnished within 10 days of the date of sale given on the Notification ofTransfer of Vehicle Ownership this will be checked against the information on the Notification submitted to the National Vehicle and Driver File by the seller of the vehicle''.
.

CiniO wrote: »

Do you have any better advice, than giving them declaration without logbook number?

Same as above, and that is to wait be patient and do it properly.

CiniO wrote: »

Is it their business?
Everyone can keep their vehicle off the road for whatever reason they want, without having to confess to the gardai

No it probably isn't their buisness, but If I want them to stamp a form for me and they ask me why it's off the road I'm going to answer them. If you tell them it's none of their business your going to come across as having an attitude and that's not a good thing when it comes to the Gards imo.

CiniO wrote: »

Why?

All answered above.

dave1982

Any truth in what I heard

That if I sell a car with no tax on it for a few months.I am liable to pay the tax anyway unless it was declared off the road?

Supposed to close the change of ownership loophole with the new tax law

JohnBoy26

corktina wrote: »

what details are in the book that aren't on the car?

The sellers details. If you send in the declaration form with your details on them, they won't match the details that are on the department of transports system which will be that of the seller's as the log book will not be processed yet.

''The declaration must be completed and furnished within 10 days of the date of sale given on the Notification of Transfer of Vehicle Ownership – this will be checked against the information on the Notification submitted to the National Vehicle and Driver File by the seller of the vehicle''
.

corktina wrote: »

You don't need to tell the gard anything, he's just witnessing your signature

Yes but If your asked(which I have been in the past) your going to give them an answer. Telling them it's none of their business doesn't come across too well imo.

CiniO

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

I propose the same as motortax.ie, and that is to tell the seller to send off the log book asap. I would be only hoping and praying that it arrives within ten days.

You don't really have any other options other than to wait and fill the form out properly when it arrives as you need to fill in the ''Vehicle Registration Certificate'' space on the form along with all the other details.

Even if you were to leave this space blank(as you propose) and send off the declaration with all the rest off your details the declaration will still be sent back to you as all the info on the log book must correspond with the information on the declaration form. As the log book has yet to be processed details on both won't be the same with the department of transport still having the previous owners details on the system.
''The declaration must be completed and furnished within 10 days of the date of sale given on the Notification ofTransfer of Vehicle Ownership this will be checked against the information on the Notification submitted to the National Vehicle and Driver File by the seller of the vehicle''.
.


Same as above, and that is to wait be patient and do it properly.

Following the rule - better safe then sorry - I'd send it earlier without logbook number on it. Better that than nothing.
Chances of receiving logbook within 10 days are not great.

No it probably isn't their buisness, but If I want them to stamp a form for me and they ask me why it's off the road I'm going to answer them. If you tell them it's none of their business your going to come across as having an attitude and that's not a good thing when it comes to the Gards imo.

Indeed it's not good attitude, but if you are 100% genuine, you didn't use the car, I really can't see a reason to answer such a question except just to keep conversation. This might end up with how bad or how good is the weather today as well

CiniO

dave1982 wrote: »

Any truth in what I heard

That if I sell a car with no tax on it for a few months.I am liable to pay the tax anyway unless it was declared off the road?

No. No truth in it.

JohnBoy26

CiniO wrote: »

Following the rule - better safe then sorry - I'd send it earlier without logbook number on it. Better that than nothing.
Chances of receiving logbook within 10 days are not great.

Yeah the chances are slim of receiving the log book in that time frame. The point I am trying to make though is that technically you are trying to declare someone else's car off the road. E.g your name and address etc will be on the declaration form while the seller's (who is the current registered owner of the vehicle) details will still be on the system.

When the relevant department compares these details they will notice the discrepancy and will be unable to fulfill your request.

djimi

celica1994 wrote: »

also, I had used the car once in the off the road period and went through a toll bridge, does that appear on the garda system or is it just if the car has been reported as being stopped at any stage?

Just to go back to this, when you sign the form you are signing a legal declaration that the car was not in use on the road in that time, and it is witnessed by the Garda. If you have gone through a toll in that time then there is a record, somewhere, that you have signed a false declaration. Now Im not sure whether or not they will check, but as far as I am concerned you would want to be utterly stupid to sign a false legal declaration when somebody has evidence that you have commited fraud.

corktina

djimi wrote: »

Just to go back to this, when you sign the form you are signing a legal declaration that the car was not in use on the road in that time, and it is witnessed by the Garda. If you have gone through a toll in that time then there is a record, somewhere, that you have signed a false declaration. Now Im not sure whether or not they will check, but as far as I am concerned you would want to be utterly stupid to sign a false legal declaration when somebody has evidence that you have commited fraud.

...especially at a time when they might be looking carefully at things and haven't had time to start cutting corners.

As for not having the logbook, I should imagine the word REASONABLE comes into play here. It is REASONABLE for you to submit the RF150 when you do get the book, even if it is technically late. You can also check online to see if the car has been put into your name before you get the book. What I would do is submit the form with an explanatory note, filling in what I can. It's an extra hastle but I can't see anything bad happening

BohsCeltic

So its still the old procedure ? My tax expired the end of June, i was going to tax it this month and pay the arrears for July but thinking of declaring it off the road now for july and august . Paying a feckin fortune for it :mad:

Scortho

BohsCeltic wrote: »

So its still the old procedure ? My tax expired the end of June, i was going to tax it this month and pay the arrears for July but thinking of declaring it off the road now for july and august . Paying a feckin fortune for it :mad:

New rules aren't enforceable until October.
I bought my car at end of June.
Garda stamped to say it was of road for June and July last week.
At 90 quid tax a month thank god he did.
You just need form rf100a