DART train length

Sam Russell

Why does Irish Rail have different length trains on the Dart service?

Today I saw three consecutive trains in the middle of the day that had 4 coaches, 6 coaches and 8 coaches. Not sure of the order but this is normal and appears quite random, and most carriages were nearly empty. It must cost more to run 8 coaches than 4.

I would have thought that all trains during off peak should have 4 coaches. If 8 coaches were needed, the trains could split, for southbound trains at Dun Laoghrie, with the front half going non-stop to Bray and then Greystones, while the second half is all statiions to Bray, where it meets its second half on its way back. For north-bound trains, the same could happen at Howth Junction, or an earlier stop, with one half going to Howth and the second half going to Malahide.

New thinking is needed.

Cookie_Monster

search the forum, has come up many many times recently.

loyatemu

I'd guess splitting trains would require more staff negating the savings from running less carriages, though one of the evening trains from Greystones does split at Bray with the back half going out of service.

Victor

Sam Russell wrote: »

where it meets its second half on its way back.

Merging trains takes staff and time. Not something you want in the middle of a route.

What is odd in Dublin is that nearly every train that goes south through Lansdowne Road goes at least as far as Bray. I imagine there is scope for more trains on the Dún Laoghaire (or Dalkey) to city section than the bit further south.

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why does Irish Rail have different length trains on the Dart service?

Today I saw three consecutive trains in the middle of the day that had 4 coaches, 6 coaches and 8 coaches. Not sure of the order but this is normal and appears quite random, and most carriages were nearly empty. It must cost more to run 8 coaches than 4.

I would have thought that all trains during off peak should have 4 coaches. If 8 coaches were needed, the trains could split, for southbound trains at Dun Laoghrie, with the front half going non-stop to Bray and then Greystones, while the second half is all statiions to Bray, where it meets its second half on its way back. For north-bound trains, the same could happen at Howth Junction, or an earlier stop, with one half going to Howth and the second half going to Malahide.

New thinking is needed.

As already observed, splitting/joining trains does take an excessive amount of time.

What is generally easier to do and is already happening is actually swapping sets - several southbound trains already pull into platform 4 at Connolly each morning after the morning peak period ends, and the passengers swap over to a shorter train on platform 5.

I suspect that this practice may be increased in frequency as IE continue to attempt to reduce costs.

Note however, that some trains may need to continue in service somewhat longer than others for positioning purposes.

Sam Russell

The point I am trying to make is that there is no logic to the number of carriages on a Dart train. They have two car sets and four car sets. Generally they do not mix these (although I have seen this) to make a six car set. Most trains are: 0ne 2 car set, three 2-car sets, and two 4-car sets, and occasionally four 2-car sets. Mixed in with these are 3-car sets for Rosslare, and two 4-car sets of commuter diesel sets.

All these trains go down the same tracks and cannot overtake each other. The 3-car set for Rosslare stops at all the same sations as the 8 coach commuter. All Dart trains stop at all stations (at least on the Southside). Quite often, two commuter trains follow each other leaving a very long gap between Darts - why?

I was in London recently, the train was spilt at East Croyden (with passengers on the train) with one half going one way and the other a different way. It improves capacity and uses rolling stock better.

Does anyone know how much it costs to run a Dart train: wages, electricty, maintenance for a 4 coach versus an 8 coach train?

It takes roughly an hour to get from Bray to Howth, and Darts go 4 per hour. There are then 8 trains on the track which means 64 coaches if all are 8 coaches. A 10 min service of 4 coach train would require 12 trains or 48 coaches. It would require 4 more drivers per hour, but 25% less coaches and give a better service.

TheBandicoot

Sam Russell wrote: »

0ne 2 car set

No, that never operates these days.

Sam Russell wrote: »

The 3-car set for Rosslare stops at all the same sations as the 8 coach commuter.

No it doesn't.

Sam Russell wrote: »

the train was spilt at East Croyden (with passengers on the train) with one half going one way and the other a different way.

It's hardly comparable, East Croydon is on a 4-track mainline, has 6 platforms and 20 million passengers passing through last year(almost 4 times the entire population of Ireland). The line also has a number of branches and junctions which necessitate breaking and joining trains to operate a meaningful service, the DART has one branch and only two stations(Connolly(electrified) and Howth junction) with 4 platforms.

Sam Russell wrote: »

It would require 4 more drivers per hour, but 25% less coaches and give a better service.

I can almost guarantee that the driver cost is more than the cost of operating the coaches. I also doubt there are enough drivers, and there is no budget to hire more. There's also no need, DART has plenty of capacity these days. At peak times there is already a roughly every 10 minute service, and at off peak times there is not enough demand to justify a 10 minute service.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

The point I am trying to make is that there is no logic to the number of carriages on a Dart train. They have two car sets and four car sets. Generally they do not mix these (although I have seen this) to make a six car set.

I don't think that the 8100s and the 8500s are compatible anymore so the only way to make a 6-car set is to use three 8100s and this is done very regularly.

Sam Russell

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Russell View Post
0ne 2 car set
No, that never operates these days.

I know, I meant Two 2 car sets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Russell View Post
The 3-car set for Rosslare stops at all the same sations as the 8 coach commuter.
No it doesn't.

It does, I checked. All trains towards Wexford stop at all stations past Bray.

Quote:
Posted by Sam Russell
the train was spilt at East Croyden (with passengers on the train) with one half going one way and the other a different way.
It's hardly comparable, East Croydon is on a 4-track mainline, has 6 platforms and 20 million passengers passing through last year(almost 4 times the entire population of Ireland). The line also has a number of branches and junctions which necessitate breaking and joining trains to operate a meaningful service, the DART has one branch and only two stations(Connolly(electrified) and Howth junction) with 4 platforms.

It only takes seconds to seperate the trains. It would require a second driver.


It would require 4 more drivers per hour, but 25% less coaches and give a better service.
I can almost guarantee that the driver cost is more than the cost of operating the coaches. I also doubt there are enough drivers, and there is no budget to hire more. There's also no need, DART has plenty of capacity these days. At peak times there is already a roughly every 10 minute service, and at off peak times there is not enough demand to justify a 10 minute service.

So you do not know the proprtion driver's pay makes to the overall cost. 8 coaches cost precisely twice the cost of 4 coaches. Also, Dart operate a more or less 15 minute service all day with some large gaps to allow the intercity and commuter trains. It takes 43 minutes for a Dart to go from Connolly to Bray and it takes 43 minutes for a commuter train to go from Connolly to Bray. So why run commuters from Connolly to Bray when they are no quicker and stop at fewer stations (but still take the time).

LXFlyer

DART sets operate in formations based on the rosters that they will be on each day. Some will require more capacity at peak depending on which trains they operate, based on anticipated loadings, and hence there is the mix of 4, 6 and 8 car DART services.

The 8100 (original) 2 car DART sets are compatible only with themselves - they can operate in 2, 4, 6 or 8 car formation.

The other DART classes (8500/8510/8520) are in fixed 4 car formations, and can operate in 4 and 8 car formation.

As I said, there are already some longer trains swapped out at Connolly in the mornings using platforms 4 and 5. Splitting sets has been at times problematic, and IE are reticent to do that in service. They prefer to swap sets either at Connolly or Bray and as a result minimise potential delays.

Splitting drivers at various locations would require more drivers and frankly it is easier to swap sets - that only requires a driver at Bray and one at Fairview/Connolly.

I would expect that this practice will be increased, with a far greater number of swaps taking place, and consequently a greater number of shorter trains travelling around in the off-peak in the future.

The commuter trains operate to Bray to provide additional connectivity from both the Northern and Maynooth lines, fill in the gaps in the 15 minute DART service at peak, and to provide additional peak time capacity south of Connolly. There are no large gaps in the 15 minute DART timetable caused as a result of their operation - check the timetable if you wish - you will see it is every 15 minutes throughout the day with peak time extra DARTs and these services fitting around that.

Each day, 4 trains operate from the Northern line in the morning to Bray, and one from Maynooth, with one in the evening to the Northern line to Bray, and two to Maynooth.

You are incorrect about stopping patterns:

Rosslare trains call at:
Connolly, Tara Street, Pearse, Dun Laoghaire and Bray.

The Northern line and Maynooth line commuter trains call at:
Connolly, Tara Street, Pearse, Grand Canal Dock, Lansdowne Road, Sydney Parade, Blackrock, Dun Laoghaire and Bray.

Sam Russell

lxflyer wrote: »

You are incorrect about stopping patterns:

Rosslare trains call at:
Connolly, Tara Street, Pearse, Dun Laoghaire and Bray.

The Northern line and Maynooth line commuter trains call at:
Connolly, Tara Street, Pearse, Grand Canal Dock, Lansdowne Road, Sydney Parade, Blackrock, Dun Laoghaire and Bray.

I actually said 'It does, I checked. All trains towards Wexford stop at all stations past Bray.'

LXFlyer

Sam Russell wrote: »

I actually said 'It does, I checked. All trains towards Wexford stop at all stations past Bray.'

You originally said:

The 3-car set for Rosslare stops at all the same stations as the 8 coach commuter.

No 8 car commuter trains operate south of Bray.

I don't see what relevance stopping patterns south of Bray have to a thread about DART services?

Sam Russell

lxflyer wrote: »

No 8 car commuter trains operate south of Bray.

I don't see what relevance stopping patterns south of Bray have to a thread about DART services?

All commuter trains south of Pearse are 8 coaches. (At least from my observation) and most commuter trains stop at Dun Laoghaire and Bray only.
.

cython

Sam Russell wrote: »

All commuter trains south of Pearse are 8 coaches. (At least from my observation) and most commuter trains stop at Dun Laoghaire and Bray only.
.

Wrong. Commuter services operate as far as Gorey and commuter branded sets operate as far as Wexford or maybe even Rosslare (I was on one to enniscorthy and I think it was going on to rosslare just last month). Stations on this route can't accommodate 8 car services so there are certainly 4 car Commuter trains south of pearse

Sam Russell

cython wrote: »

Wrong. Commuter services operate as far as Gorey and commuter branded sets operate as far as Wexford or maybe even Rosslare (I was on one to enniscorthy and I think it was going on to rosslare just last month). Stations on this route can't accommodate 8 car services so there are certainly 4 car Commuter trains south of pearse

Ten 'trains' go from Pearse to Bray each day. Trains bound beyond Bray stop at Dun Laoghaire, Bray trains stop at Grand Canal Dock, Landowne, B'rock as well. Four of the five trains that go south go to Rosslare, the other one only going to Wexford. Currently no train terminates at Gorey, they all go as far as Wexford with most going onto Rosslare.

I live next to the line and I seldom see a 4-coach commuter set, but it is an exception, and more likely caused by lack of available rolling stock. The 3-coach intercity goes past but all other commuter trains are 8-coach. IR changed their timetable some time ago but that is their current offering.

My original question was why do IR run Dart trains of random length with no pattern at all - 6 coaches at rush hour and 4, 6, and 8 during off peak. At weekends they tend to run 4 coach sets but not always.

I have heard nothing to explain this.

LXFlyer

OK - To summarise:

Rosslare/Wexford/Gorey trains are made up of either 3 Car ICR sets or 4 car Commuter sets (the down Wexford train returns from Gorey the next morning):

These stop at Connolly, Tara Street, Pearse, Dun Laoghaire and Bray

The Northern line and Maynooth line commuter trains (all eight car) call at:
Connolly, Tara Street, Pearse, Grand Canal Dock, Lansdowne Road, Sydney Parade, Blackrock, Dun Laoghaire and Bray.

DART services operate currently in 4, 6 or 8-car formations depending on an analsyis of what services they will operate over the course of the entire day and based on the loading data that they have for those services. Historically, the sets tended to be out all day hence you would see longer DART sets out during the off-peak.

Just to add, that all three different 4-car, 6-car, and 8-car DART formations are in operation throughout the peak (depending on what the loadings are on specific trains).

Some swapping does however now take place, taking out 8-car sets and replacing them with 4-car sets in the mornings and evenings at Connolly and Bray, but often longer sets will continue in service after the peak period in order to position them for the following morning.

I would expect that however, that a further re-analysis of DART sets will take place and you will see a move to shorter formations in the off-peak as IE continue to reduce costs.

jasonbourne.cs

it would seem sensible to have specific length trains at busier times , but Irishrail seem content to have commuters stand for almost their entire journey and this still seems to be considered okay practice .

grand if your going two stops , but i've been on jammed trains at rush hour going from city centre to bray / greystones .

its annoying that after suffering through numerous weekends(for months ) without trains when they were lengthening the platforms , we are now no better off ..... :mad:

LXFlyer

jasonbourne.cs wrote: »

it would seem sensible to have specific length trains at busier times , but Irishrail seem content to have commuters stand for almost their entire journey and this still seems to be considered okay practice .

grand if your going two stops , but i've been on jammed trains at rush hour going from city centre to bray / greystones .

its annoying that after suffering through numerous weekends(for months ) without trains when they were lengthening the platforms , we are now no better off ..... :mad:

Numbers travelling have dropped since the heady days of requiring 8-car DARTs all day, and capacity is being cut to cut costs - standing unfortunately is a fact of life on most commuter rail networks.

jasonbourne.cs

i can see your point about numbers dropping and I'm probably getting a bit off topic but surely its a bit of a catch 22 situation ?

service is crap , people stop using the train , service continues to get worse due to cost cutting , numbers continue to drop

LXFlyer

jasonbourne.cs wrote: »

i can see your point about numbers dropping and I'm probably getting a bit off topic but surely its a bit of a catch 22 situation ?

service is crap , people stop using the train , service continues to get worse due to cost cutting , numbers continue to drop

So do you just leave extra long trains out and do nothing?

Revenue falls -> costs have to fall too.

The frequency is pretty much as was - so it's just that the capacity has been cut to match the demand.

The fact that people were not being left behind sort of speaks volumes to me to be honest.