Commercial Races - A welcome contribution or Carpetbaggers?

Condo131

In recent years, even more so this year, there has been a proliferation of commercial races. Is this a welcome development? Do they contribute to the running scene? In what ways do they contribute (or not)?

What do you think?.... and why? ...anyone else feel strongly on this?

I'll add my opinion after a good few replies (...or maybe nobody gives a fiddlers!! :eek: )

Krusty_Clown

I was quite vocal in my opposition to the Rock 'n' Roll half marathon (as I'd rather see the AAI align the national half marathon with a indigenous Irish race), but there was one positive aspect to the race that I didn't foresee, and that was the number of visitors/tourists it brought into the country specifically for the race. So while I don't think it did anything for the running scene in general (I'd imagine most Irish participants would have been competing in a half marathon anyway) anything that attracts foreign visitors (spend!) is a good thing.

I prefer to compete in non-commercial races, but I think there is a place for commercial races in this country, as competition raises the standards of all races. As has been noted on a number of occasions, large mass-participation commercial races are an easier entry point for new runners to begin their running 'careers' rather than competitive club race environments. Safety in numbers and all that. It would be great if the large commercial races could be held to some standards though, such as prize pools, certified/measured courses, etc.

Murph_D

It's the marketplace at work, responding to the current running boom. I don't think it's particularly welcome, unless these races are adding something new that the current club races, race series, and so on do not offer.

These races are run for profit, obviously, and rely on unpaid volunteers and other forms of free labour and materials (sponsorship) to boost those profits. The prices tend to be high, justified by some gimmick or other (free rock and roll bands every mile; a hi-vis shirt with a pocket for your iPhone; night-time running; riverside running; whatever).

Do they dilute the market and take income away from the not for profit events like club races and other events, such as the Race Series, where the money raised ultimately goes back into the sport? We don't know - and anyway non-commercial, free events like parkrun may also have an effect on race numbers in the short term.

If these events grow interest in the sport, perhaps all races benefit in the long run. If they siphon custom off from club races, the sport loses in the short term. If they are well run and good value they will grow; if not they will be a flash in the pan. A certain riverside Dublin summer race, after this year's shambles, will do well to recover, I would imagine (but then again maybe most 'customers' don't care if they like the "free" shirt).

PaulieC

murphd77 wrote: »

It's the marketplace at work, responding to the current running boom. I don't think it's particularly welcome, unless these races are adding something new that the current club races, race series, and so on do not offer.

These races are run for profit, obviously, and rely on unpaid volunteers and other forms of free labour and materials (sponsorship) to boost those profits. The prices tend to be high, justified by some gimmick or other (free rock and roll bands every mile; a hi-vis shirt with a pocket for your iPhone; night-time running; riverside running; whatever).

Do they dilute the market and take income away from the not for profit events like club races and other events, such as the Race Series, where the money raised ultimately goes back into the sport? We don't know - and anyway non-commercial, free events like parkrun may also have an effect on race numbers in the short term.

If these events grow interest in the sport, perhaps all races benefit in the long run. If they siphon custom off from club races, the sport loses in the short term. If they are well run and good value they will grow; if not they will be a flash in the pan. A certain riverside Dublin summer race, after this year's shambles, will do well to recover, I would imagine (but then again maybe most 'customers' don't care if they like the "free" shirt).

I know you probably have some reason for the cynicism, but at least try to get your facts correct. The big commercial races source their 'volunteers' through the athletic clubs and they pay a fee to the clubs for each volunteer. So by volunteering, your club benefits enormously (I think for the Samsung Night Run it was about 30 euros per volunteer).

Condo131

PaulieC wrote: »

I know you probably have some reason for the cynicism, but at least try to get your facts correct. The big commercial races source their 'volunteers' through the athletic clubs and they pay a fee to the clubs for each volunteer. So by volunteering, your club benefits enormously (I think for the Samsung Night Run it was about 30 euros per volunteer).

Afaik, This happens in the Dublin region only. Most of the commercials elsewhere in the country seek unpaid "volunteers".

RayCun

I think the Rock and roll/national half worked out well.
Championship runners paid a reasonable entry fee (and got 2 tshirts:pac:), there don't seem to have been any problems caused by running it at the same time as a regular large race.
Athletics Ireland made (I presume) some money out of it, rather than subsidising the cost of putting on the race.
No club was stuck with the hassle and expense of putting on a half marathon where most of the entry fees went to AAI (and the clubs who provided stewards and water stations made money)
The only people disadvantaged was the DLR 10k race, but that seems to have drawn about the same numbers this year. (and is that a commercial race anyway?)
Lots of Americans paid a small fortune to walk around Dublin, but they seemed happy (and so polite!)

Murph_D

PaulieC wrote: »

I know you probably have some reason for the cynicism, but at least try to get your facts correct. The big commercial races source their 'volunteers' through the athletic clubs and they pay a fee to the clubs for each volunteer. So by volunteering, your club benefits enormously (I think for the Samsung Night Run it was about 30 euros per volunteer).

I was aware of the Samsung volunteer club donation. It's a fine point, but I would still call this unpaid - or at best, subsidised - labour. The organisers get publicity within the club and in return for their donation, a few members (and perhaps their family and friends) probably sign up to run the race as a result.

PaulieC

murphd77 wrote: »

I was aware of the Samsung volunteer club donation. It's a fine point, but I would still call this unpaid - or at best, subsidised - labour. The organisers get publicity within the club and in return for their donation, a few members (and perhaps their family and friends) probably sign up to run the race as a result.

My club got 30 quid for me standing at a street corner for two hours. I think there were about 100 volunteers from the club that night and very few actually running it (I'd need to go look at the reports to verify). So that's about 3k that the club made from that one race. Compare that to the amount (0) of money the club made last year running their own race (which was pretty well established as I recall), which was run on the same evening as one of the Docklands races (run by a different club)

Condo131

Up to about 6 years ago, there were very few commercial races in Ireland, with most races being organised and run by clubs and the BHAA. Race organisation standards have, by and large, improved. Approx. 6 years ago, we had the start of the current running “boom” and numbers participating in races literally mushroomed. This brought numbers into potentially commercial range and many spotted an opportunity…..and took it.

As I see it, the greatest benefit of commercial races is the high profile generated by many of them….they are literally “whipping the ass” of club races wrt PR. Most of the commercials approach their events from the PR side and build down, bringing the race elements in. On the other hand, club races tend to build from the bottom up, with PR being (sometimes) an add on.

There also seems to be a fear, by club organisers, of their event being too big. Commercials think big…and get big.

So what’s in it for the commercials…..well bigger means more entries, more sponsorship, more advertising, more freebies, more hype….more…more.. more..

Prizesfunds: Funny you should mention that….You’d think that being big might mean bigger prizefunds. You’d be dead wrong! Most of the commercials have prizefunds that a small club race in Ballygobackward would be ashamed of. First prize in a high profile commercial, just 2 years ago, was : a piece of local crystal, a hoodie and an envelope ….. containing free entry to the following year’s race. Another commercial just gave a piece of crystal. Recent high profile commercial races, including last Monday’s, just gave prizes for the first three men and women….a total of €2,000, from an estimated entry of the order of €300,000, without considering advertising or sponsorship.

An aspect that really upsets me, is the way in which many of the commercials promote themselves as ”Charity Races”, when all they are doing is endorsing a particular charity as their “Partner” and sticking the charities logo on the race website and endorsing the charity as the official race charity. In other words, the charity gains no benefit from the race proceeds…..the participants raise sponsorship for the charity. I think someone needs to explain, to these race organisers, that Partnership means sharing in the profits of an event. The manner in which the charity element is promoted leads many newcomers , in particular, to believe, incorrectly, that these events are run specifically to promote the charity in question. [I have written to ICTR about these matters]. In contrast, quite a few club races donate significant portions to charity, without much hype over charity partnerships

Yet another disquieting aspect wrt commercials, is the way that they “hide”. Very often there is no contact detail – just a blank “contact us” form, and, if you’re lucky, a mobile number and to “contact Mick on 08X…. It can be very hard to find out who is actually behind these events.
Under Irish Company Law, Companies are obliged to include PROMINENTLY on their websites AND all documentation – including race flyers – their company name, company registration number, email address, phone number, directors names and registered office and or trading address. [I have written to the ODCE about widespread non-compliance by commercial races in this regard]. Why hide your company, and its directors identities? ....and the vast majority of the commercials do this!

So who is running these events? Well obviously the commercial promoter….but they don’t have the people to organize the races…so who do they get to do the work for them? The Clubs! Has the penny dropped? The commercials gain supernormal profits, while employing the clubs to actually run the events on the ground…and (sometimes) give them, maybe €3,000! Shame on us for allowing this situation to continue.

Another disquieting aspect is how the commercials are allowed, by the local authorities and Gardai, to run events over courses that clubs are continually refused.

Some of the commercials run top quality events, but, sadly, some of them cost cut at every opportunity, leading to a very poor quality event...and yet, by the following year, and more hype....a new batch of punters is to be found.

We all know non-commercial races that provide, year on year, stupendous value. These races don't hype things as much as the commercials, don't charge as much and yet provide real value, with the club and the punter both gaining...and the proceeds going back into the sport....not a Limited Company's profits.

The question really is: Will club races up their efforts, maybe even combining forces (for race management purposes), matching the commercials in terms of marketing, and show the average runner where the real value lies? I hope so.

Murph_D

I think you hit the nail on the head there with regard to the commercial co-option of club expertise, labour and organisational skills in return for a relatively tiny fee.

A commercial race is run for profit. All costs, including prizes, reduce potential profits and will be cut if the "market" can bear it.

These race companies - whoever they are - are producing a commoditised running event experience. And like all commodities, this experience is the product of human labour, which is another cost to be minimised as much as possible.

While it was running one of these events that kick started my interest in races, I will only do them now if I feel they are giving something extra for the high fee.

And yes - the co-option of charity "partners" is despicable. I wonder do charities actually pay a fee to be "chosen"? That would really be taking the biscuit.

Condo131

murphd77 wrote: »

And yes - the co-option of charity "partners" is despicable. I wonder do charities actually pay a fee to be "chosen"? That would really be taking the biscuit.

I don't know if that happens in this country. I know it happens abroad. It's a question I'll certainly ask the management of a charity I am associated with....when I meet them again in about 6 weeks.

From the charities point of view, its money that they might not otherwise get, so, in this economic climate, they grasp whatever they can get with both arms...and I certainly don't blame them.

An illustration of the, in my view, appalling charity charade is a recent event, billed as a fundraiser for a charity, which grossed some €60k+, and, in the final analysis, donated approx. €7k.

Because of that particular event, I've stuck my neck out and am looking at organising a major event next year....if it turned over €60k, I'd hope to donate at least €40k, while still providing chip timing, t-shirt & prizes.
I just hope to God that, having stuck my neck out.....it's still attached afterwards!:eek:

clear thinking

€46 for the R'N'R apparently. No reason why AAI couldnt have run it on a commercial basis without having to let a bunch of yanks cream a hefty margin.

At half price presumably that would bring in €150k which would easily cover stewarding, hefty prize money, donations to clubs for club volunteers, pay for teeshirts, target sponsors etc.

Show me otherwise, but that would mean R'n'R strolled off there with a cool €100k+.

RayCun

clear thinking wrote: »

€46 for the R'N'R apparently. No reason why AAI couldnt have run it on a commercial basis without having to let a bunch of yanks cream a hefty margin.

At half price presumably that would bring in €150k which would easily cover stewarding, hefty prize money, donations to clubs for club volunteers, pay for teeshirts, target sponsors etc.

Show me otherwise, but that would mean R'n'R strolled off there with a cool €100k+.

What was €46 for the R&R?
Do the AAI have the experience and infrastructure to promote a race like the R&R crowd did? Would they have gotten the 1000+ yanks over to race?

ThePiedPiper

The commercial races are definitely a good entry point for people into running, they give people more choice as to when and where they want to race.

I was chatting to a 50 something year old lastnight who was running 2:30 odd for the marathon back in the 80s. We'd a bit of a chat about the racing scene back then, he said that a lot of races were much more competitive. But these days, there are just so much more races, its probably more a case of the race fields being diluted. I know one guy for our club who raced and won three races in the same weekend last year. O Hanlon does this sort of thing too, so I suppose the commercial races have given people the chance to make a bit of a living on the side if they race frequently enough.

All things being equal, I'd much prefer to support a race organised by a club than a commercial type of event. And, even then, I'd choose a race that is raising funds for a charity or something. Stayed away from a 10k this year that I'd done a couple of times, these were my reasons.
#1 Organised by a local business who take the profits,
#2 Gimmicky nonsense with people dressed up in fancy dress starting the race
#3 €25 for a 10k? Ridiculous quite frankly

I was pleasantly surprised by the Rock n' Roll half on Monday however. They did a lot of things right, measured the course properly, closed the roads fully for the race, plenty of marshals, fruit and water at the end, and catered well (eventually) for the AAI members.

People can vote with their feet. If you don't like commercial type races, don't go to them, but they're here to stay, so we may learn to live with them.

Krusty_Clown

RayCun wrote: »

What was €46 for the R&R?
Do the AAI have the experience and infrastructure to promote a race like the R&R crowd did? Would they have gotten the 1000+ yanks over to race?

The national Half marathon participants represented around 11% of the total number of participants, so for everyone else, the price was substantially more than the €25 R&R/AAI introductory offer.

And to your other two questions, the answer is no, but the AAI aren't the only organization in the game. There are plenty of examples of well organized races in this country (both commercial and running club) who could have taken on the national half marathon. Having participated in the last two (Waterford and Athenry) I found them to be extremely well organized. There are a number of up and coming 1/2 marathon distance races (such as Athlone and Charleville) that would be well suited to the purpose of taking on the mantle of the national event.

RayCun

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

The national Half marathon participants represented around 11% of the total number of participants, so for everyone else, the price was substantially more than the €25 R&R/AAI introductory offer.

That's true, but tbh I see no reason to believe that the AAI could get that many people to pay that much in a race they organised themselves.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

And to your other two questions, the answer is no, but the AAI aren't the only organization in the game. There are plenty of examples of well organized races in this country (both commercial and running club) who could have taken on the national half marathon. Having participated in the last two (Waterford and Athenry) I found them to be extremely well organized. There are a number of up and coming 1/2 marathon distance races (such as Athlone and Charleville) that would be well suited to the purpose of taking on the mantle of the national event.

From the point of view of the AAI, I guess the most important considerations are that the race be well-organised - measured, stewarded etc- beyond the bits they administer themselves and the cost of entry for championship runners is kept reasonable.
Getting a club to put on a race to be the national championship meets those criteria, but it must be an enormous amount of work for the club. Running the championship with a race that's on anyway is an easier option. I'd rather that race was club-run (or race series), but if the R&R crowd dumped a bag of cash on the table for the AAI...?

Condo131

RunForestRun wrote: »

The commercial races are definitely a good entry point for people into running, they give people more choice as to when and where they want to race.

Don't know about that. Lots of choice available here in Cork. For example, this week, Mon: Kilbrittain 5k (no permit)...€?, Wed: Cloyne 5k..€10, Thurs: Shanagarry 5k....€3, Fri: Mitchesltown 8k...€10, Sat: Macroom (Parkrun) 5k...Free, Sun: Ballyhooly 10k...€10

Have a look at tonight's race - NOW THAT IS VALUE!!!

RunForestRun wrote: »

They did a lot of things right, measured the course properly, closed the roads fully for the race, plenty of marshals, fruit and water at the end, and catered well (eventually) for the AAI members.

Measurement was by AAI and, afaik, stewarding was provided by AAI.

RunForestRun wrote: »

If you don't like commercial type races, don't go to them, but they're here to stay, so we may learn to live with them.

I agree with the first part. Here to stay...well that really depends on us, the running community. Live with them ? Maybe. Learn from them? Definitely! Race organisers need to really up their efforts in terms of publicity and hype. As I said in an earlier mail, the commercials are great at this and, as a result, are getting big, sometimes huge, entries. If the clubs could hype their own races up, it would have a double effect; Increase revenues for the clubs and, in effect, demonstrate the great value and organisation of club runs.

For example, my own club organised a race last May. Nearly 900 places on offer; Sold out in just under 3 hours. Entry €12 - we could have charged €30 and still sold out, but as we've always said "We're not in the business of making money". Prizefund €3,000 (Monday's was €2,000).

There are lots of other club races providing similar value...You know them and they deserve YOUR support.

Condo131

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

There are a number of up and coming 1/2 marathon distance races (such as Athlone and Charleville) that would be well suited to the purpose of taking on the mantle of the national event.

Can't comment on Athlone...never done it. Charleville is one of the few (the only?) HM in Ireland that is AIMS registered and, I understand, this year will have roads closed. Last year, it had the highest standard HM field in the country.

Charleville for National Chp 2014? I'd like to see it...but AAI are bitching mad that Charleville have used the word "International" in their race title.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: You can call the National Championships "Rock & Roll"...but "International".....:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Krusty_Clown

Condo131 wrote: »

Can't comment on Athlone...never done it. Charleville is one of the few (the only?) HM in Ireland that is AIMS registered and, I understand, this year will have roads closed. Last year, it had the highest standard HM field in the country.

Charleville for National Chp 2014? I'd like to see it...but AAI are bitching mad that Charleville have used the word "International" in their race title.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: You can call the National Championships "Rock & Roll"...but "International".....:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

It also happens to be in Cork, which seems to be the only way that you can get Munster runners to travel/participate. Fees for Charleville are rising though (beyond the €25 charged for the national half for the last three years) so may not be workable. Athlone is in the middle of the country and reg. fees are aligned with previous national half fees.

RayCun

Condo131 wrote: »

AAI are bitching mad that Charleville have used the word "International" in their race title

:pac::pac:
that's funny on both sides

RayCun

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

It also happens to be in Cork, which seems to be the only way that you can get Munster runners to travel/participate.

and apparently they're thinking of seceding. Obviously want to be the real capital of somewhere

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Fees for Charleville are rising though (beyond the €25 charged for the national half for the last three years) so may not be workable. Athlone is in the middle of the country and reg. fees are aligned with previous national half fees.

Do the race organisers get the entry fee for championship entries or does some/all of it go to AAI?

Condo131

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

It also happens to be in Cork, which seems to be the only way that you can get Munster runners to travel/participate.

That's an awful suggestion about Cork runners!! LOL....part of the course actually goes into Co. Limerick (Here be Dragons....Corkonians beware! )

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Fees for Charleville are rising though (beyond the €25 charged for the national half for the last three years) so may not be workable.

Valid point. However Charleville does have to pay AIMS fees (membership approx. €850), and this year is paying for road closure (no idea how much, but I gather expensive). Obviously the more people that participate (in this, or any other race), the more these costs are diluted....which brings us back to hype and benefits of orders of magnitude.

Disclaimer: I am not connected with the organisation of this race, but I did measure and certify the course for AIMS.

Condo131

RayCun wrote: »

and apparently they're thinking of seceding. Obviously want to be the real capital of somewhere

RayCun wrote: »

Do the race organisers get the entry fee for championship entries or does some/all of it go to AAI?

This is something I'd like to know. Anyone able to answer?

My club has considered organising a National Chp, but this is one of the stumbling blocks. We'd also require full control of results, in the expectation that we would issue results withing a very short time of race finish...an aspect where AAI doesn't normally come up smelling of roses.

RayCun

I'm sure I remember someone saying it last year. Couldn't find that, but did find this
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66911971&postcount=44

It's not too long ago that a national half marathon was run on an uncertified course that was found on the day to be well short. As a runner you'd like to think that one of the main considerations in organising a race like this would be "Is there a decent course that will attract runners to the event?", but I don't believe that the case, or at least I've seen no evidence of such thinking in the past. In fairness I don't blame the club that hosts the race as there's very little or nothing in it for them. They get to put in huge amounts of organisational effort and don't even take a portion of the entry fees on the day. It can be an expensive exercise for a club to host one of these races and perhaps that leads to 'amaturism' in that the local clubs are trying to keep costs to a managable amount.

TFBubendorfer

Condo131 wrote: »

Lots of choice available here in Cork. For example, this week, Mon: Kilbrittain 5k (no permit)...€?, Wed: Cloyne 5k..€10, Thurs: Shanagarry 5k....€3, Fri: Mitchesltown 8k...€10, Sat: Macroom (Parkrun) 5k...Free, Sun: Ballyhooly 10k...€10

That's a new development, at least closer to home. I know, because until about 3 or 4 years ago I used to travel to Cork all the time because there were so few suitable races here in Kerry.

It was the commercial races that improved the sorry situation and I'd rather have a choice than no choice. The number of races nowadays also gives me the option to skip a race without feeling guilty if I think the organiser is only out there to make a quick buck or uses the dodgy methods you mentioned.

You keep bringing up the same discussion at least once a year Condo, and I still prefer the present situation, even with a few black sheep amongst the organisers.

Condo131

[Not going to argue with you Thomas....we'll have to agree to disagree. The situation in Kerry is different to here in Cork. Apart from the odd race, the vast majority here are (relatively) low cost non-commercials, and most of the commercials who have ventured into the general Cork city area have been "burnt".]

Rather than simply mouthing off on this, I've got the ball rolling on a few things:

Charity Event: We're in the early stages of putting a major mass participation race/run together for next year. Low cost, sponsored prizes, with all proceeds going to a number of designated Cancer charities.
Probability of going ahead: 80%+

Half-Mar: Early stages of a cross-club proposal to organise an attractive event with all the hype of the commercials, without the high entry fees, but WITH, in contrast to the commercials, a full and substantial prize fund. Profits ploughed back into the sport, split between the participating clubs.
Probability of going ahead: Too early to say, but the willingness is there.

C'mon everybody, lets get it together and take on the commercials at their own game. The main thing thats stopping us is our fear of the amount of work required upfront.....yet we're the people who provide the permits (through our clubs), stewarding, pacers, etc.