Old Wicklow schools

Enniskerryhist

Hi

I am looking for old Wicklow schools - buildings that are now used for something else (or abandoned). If you know of a former school in your locality, would be great if you could share location (and photo if possible). Am particularly interested in first half of 19th century, but any leads appreciated.
Cheers,
Michael

Alun

Here's one I remember seeing near Tinahely on the Kyle Loop trail ...

http://goo.gl/maps/Lozr6

slowburner

These walls are all that remain of an early C19th schoolhouse in Cronebane, near Avoca. It was a substantial structure that probably served the needs of the large mining community of the period. It was abandoned some time before 1860.
Do tell us about your study, it sounds interesting

Enniskerryhist

Oh that's really great, thank you both. From a glance, the first one looks like it was in the north of the Fitzwilliam estate, will have to get back to broadband-land before I investigate that one more.

Thanks so much for Cronebane photo, that's just wonderful to see. I date that to about 1796. Jonathan Fisher was drawing the mines at Cronebane then and mentioned a school was under construction. You're right, it was for miner's children. It was supported by Tigroney mining co in 1825, and had "mostly children of copper miners" in 1835. Sad to see it like this now.

You can find out more about this project at www.wickloweducationhistory.org/home - it *is* going to be a book, I keep telling myself that every morning :-) All contributions fully acknowledged!

There'll be a blog post in about a week compiling all the photos I've got so far.

Thanks both again,
Michael

slowburner

Enniskerryhist wrote: »

Oh that's really great, thank you both. From a glance, the first one looks like it was in the north of the Fitzwilliam estate, will have to get back to broadband-land before I investigate that one more.

Thanks so much for Cronebane photo, that's just wonderful to see. I date that to about 1796. Jonathan Fisher was drawing the mines at Cronebane then and mentioned a school was under construction. You're right, it was for miner's children. It was supported by Tigroney mining co in 1825, and had "mostly children of copper miners" in 1835. Sad to see it like this now.

You can find out more about this project at www.wickloweducationhistory.org/home - it *is* going to be a book, I keep telling myself that every morning :-) All contributions fully acknowledged!

There'll be a blog post in about a week compiling all the photos I've got so far.

Thanks both again,
Michael

That's useful information, many thanks indeed.
The situation of the school was very odd by today's standards. There was a very steep drop off just outside the walls. Perhaps climbing was on the curriculum.
Best of luck with the book.

RH149

As far as I know the old Arklow Vocational school ('the Tech) used to be in the building now used as a Maritime Museum or a Library up near the train station...The VEC school is now Arklow Community College on the Coolegreaney Road.

Enniskerryhist

RH149 wrote: »

As far as I know the old Arklow Vocational school ('the Tech) used to be in the building now used as a Maritime Museum or a Library up near the train station...The VEC school is now Arklow Community College on the Coolegreaney Road.

Cheers, Arklow must have an original school as there were lots here in 19th century. Will check the building out, thanks for tip. Do you know of "Nairn Street" in Arklow?

Thanks,
Michael

Alun

Just to add that the school I mentioned is actually known as Ballycumber School. You can see it clearly on the OSi Map Viewer historical map here ...

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,704443,677323,7,9

In fact, the OSi map viewer is a great tool for finding these kinds of things. Select one of the historical maps, I find Historic 25" is the clearest, then select "Historic Layers" and scroll down until you find National Schools and select that and hit Apply. You have to zoom in to be able to see them, but when you do, markers showing all national schools shown on that map will appear. The same thing applies to the other historic maps, but the categories are slightly differently arranged, and as the dates of the two maps are different, you can sometimes see schools on one but not the other.

It should then be just a case of trying to match up the location on the OSi map viewer to the same location on Google Streetview, not always a trivial exercise, although the road network has changed remarkably little over the years, and you'll then be able to see if it still exists today.

As an example, here's a school in Davidstown, on the road between the N81 and Knockanarrigan on Osi Map Viewer ...

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,704443,677323,7,9

.. and the same building on Google Maps and Streetview ...

http://goo.gl/maps/eBo4l

http://goo.gl/maps/t4N8h

One vital piece of information in all of this would of course be the dates when the historical maps used on the site were surveyed, but I can't find that information anywhere on the site. I'm sure a quick email would give you that information though.

slowburner

The OSI 6'' was surveyed from 1838 and completed in 1846.
The second edition 25'' dates from c. 1860, with variations.

brayblue24

Alun wrote: »

Just to add that the school I mentioned is actually known as Ballycumber School. You can see it clearly on the OSi Map Viewer historical map here ...

I think I may have photos of this one. They're about 10 years old taken with a then state of the art 2mp camera but if they're any use to you I'll post 'em here

Sulla Felix

Lacken NS was built either late 1800s or turn of the century. It was only in the last few years that a new school was built in the village to replace it, so it's in quite good repair and used as a community centre. It was also apparently the longest working school when it closed a couple years ago.

http://www.schooldays.ie/sch/lacken-mxd-n-s-rollnumber-10111O/thread/lacken-School-ts-1001030048

That's a post that seems to be by a local man who has a bit of research done.

I live nearby, can get some photos at the weekend, if you have anything specific you nee?D

Alun

slowburner wrote: »

The OSI 6'' was surveyed from 1838 and completed in 1846.
The second edition 25'' dates from c. 1860, with variations.

Thanks, that's useful info I hadn't been able to find elsewhere. What I find odd is that the 25" map seems to have more detail than the 6" map which seems counter-intuitive. It's also a much better map in general, which is also a bit strange, seeing as it's not that much more 'modern', and I wouldn't have thought mapping / printing techniques would have improved that much in that time.

slowburner

Alun wrote: »

Thanks, that's useful info I hadn't been able to find elsewhere. What I find odd is that the 25" map seems to have more detail than the 6" map which seems counter-intuitive. It's also a much better map in general, which is also a bit strange, seeing as it's not that much more 'modern', and I wouldn't have thought mapping / printing techniques would have improved that much in that time.

I'm not so sure I agree.
The first ed. map is still unsurpassed for accuracy and detail. From an archaeological perspective, few maps are more important. It recorded so many monuments, earthworks and enclosures that were either destroyed or not recorded on the second ed. map.
From a digital point of view, you can zoom in to a greater depth on the first edition map.
Importantly, the first edition map records an Ireland before the Great Famine. The second edition map is post famine and the changes to the landscape are enormous.
The first edition map is still employed to plot the existence (or otherwise) of many interesting features, indeed it is the starting point for many archaeological surveys.
The history of this mapping is very interesting in itself.
Ireland was the first country in the world to be mapped in this way. Each and every townland in the country was allocated to two sappers to survey with chain and theodolite and every inch of the townland boundaries were walked.
I shudder to think what sights they must have seen as they surveyed during the famine years.

In addition, notes on the lore and placenames were recorded and now form a crucial source of information. The 'Boundary Notes', 'OS letters' and 'O'Donovan name books' are still essential sources for any serious scholar.

Both series largely ignored the uplands. The primary reason for this is that the surveys were all about plotting usable land.
More on the pioneers here and the mapping methodology here

Alun

slowburner wrote: »

I'm not so sure I agree.

Here's two views of the same area, Powerscourt House, firstly from the 6" map ...

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,721082,716404,7,8

... and secondly from the 25" map ...

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,721082,716404,7,9

I know which one looks more detailed to me, but I'm not looking at it from a historian's perspective, but as someone interested in cartography in general, I must admit.

Enniskerryhist

brayblue24 wrote: »

I think I may have photos of this one. They're about 10 years old taken with a then state of the art 2mp camera but if they're any use to you I'll post 'em here

Yes please Thank you!

Enniskerryhist

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Lacken NS was built either late 1800s or turn of the century. It was only in the last few years that a new school was built in the village to replace it, so it's in quite good repair and used as a community centre. It was also apparently the longest working school when it closed a couple years ago.

http://www.schooldays.ie/sch/lacken-mxd-n-s-rollnumber-10111O/thread/lacken-School-ts-1001030048

That's a post that seems to be by a local man who has a bit of research done.

I live nearby, can get some photos at the weekend, if you have anything specific you nee?D

Thanks a million - interesting isn't it that even by late 1860s, there was a hedge school there. A photo would be great - just of the front, along with location. Much obliged.

Speaking of Lacken (as a place), I think it is included in a book of history of townlands: 'Studies in Local History - Irish Townlands', it's in Wicklow libraries.

Enniskerryhist

Alun wrote: »

Just to add that the school I mentioned is actually known as Ballycumber School. You can see it clearly on the OSi Map Viewer historical map here ...

Thanks a million for all your information and help - am trying to cross ref this one with local sources at the time - it is nice and clear on the 1837 map. The townland is in Kilcommon parish. The only significant (built) school in this parish in 1825 was at Tinahely (along with 6 hedge schools). By 1834, the parish had two schools listed - the parish school at Tinahely, and a school kept by Charles McHugh. 1834 report usually explicitly specifies if they are hedge schools (and it isn't mentioned here), so perhaps this is it. Otherwise it was built soon after to appear on 1837/8 map.

(I was wondering why Ballycumber sounded familiar, but it is also the name of a small Powerscourt estate in Offaly.)

slowburner wrote: »

The OSI 6'' was surveyed from 1838 and completed in 1846.
The second edition 25'' dates from c. 1860, with variations.

There are gorgeous surveyor's books in National Archives. At Enniskerry, they walked the land in March 1837, and as you say, maps were published the following year. An amazing achievement and isn't it fantastic now to have them online?

Thanks again
M

slowburner

Enniskerryhist wrote: »

There are gorgeous surveyor's books in National Archives. At Enniskerry, they walked the land in March 1837, and as you say, maps were published the following year. An amazing achievement and isn't it fantastic now to have them online?

Thanks again
M

That it is.

I don't think any nation has such a magnificent set of online resources.
You are probably well aware of this additional resource which is very useful for cross referencing.
Searches can be carried out using the database query, either by monument class in each county or by refining the search to townlands.
It could be useful to you to see what monuments are recorded near the sites of these schools, especially where there are interesting clusters.

Enniskerryhist

slowburner wrote: »

You are probably well aware of this additional resource which is very useful for cross referencing.

Wasn't, but am now - great! Will also be useful for a Field Names project we are getting going here (http://enniskerryhistory.org/fieldnames)

Michael

vickers209

Theres the old school house in nuns cross ashford pic below



Located here on maps
https://maps.google.ie/maps?hl=en&ll=53.016758,-6.124138&spn=0.003472,0.010568&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=53.016754,-6.123852&panoid=1yLTQtcXIIWx1MwlzNFdtw&cbp=12,258.13,,0,0.62

Its been renovated and turned into a modern house on inside

A quick Google turns up it was built in 1877

Kilfea Schoolhouse was built in 1807 by Sir Francis Hutchinson Bart and can still be seen on the road from Ashford to Devils Glen. The building is situated opposite the entrance to the Glanmore Estate owned at that time by the Synge family.

The Synge family also had an estate school in their grounds called “The Pestalozzi School”. John Synge had met the Swiss Educationalist Johann Pestalozzi and was so taken by him that he made the introduction of his system of education his lifes work.

In Ashford village a school existed called “The Yellow House” it was a low thatched building on the Rathnew side of the village. In later years it became the Apothecary’s shop.

The Crofton Family of Inchinappa Estate were especially interested in the education of their tenants and built a school on their lands in Inchinappa. In 1821 in the 3rd report of the County Wicklow Education Society it is recorded that at Inchinappa a school with 24 girls was in existence. The teacher was a Mr David Lindsay and under the heading of “State School” it was remarked that the building was in excellent condition and well furnished.
In 1834 there is a record of the school then ran by Mr Laurence Egan, and supported principally by the Rev Crofton, who paid £30.00 per year to the master and gave the building, fuel, and books free of charge. The children paid 1d per week to 2s/6d per quarter. There were 30 boys and girls attending and they were taught reading, writing, arithmetic, grammar and scripture.

In 1875 the death took place of Marcia Anastasia Crofton. In her will she left a sum of money for the maintenance of a parish school in Kiliskey Parish. In October of that year the Select Vestry of Kiliskey sent a letter to the board of Commissioners of Charitable Bequests explaining the inconvenient location of the townland of Inchinappa in the Parish of Kiliskey and requesting that the bequest be extended to a more convenient location for the school. The Commissioners and the Crofton Family agreed and in 1877 a stonewall structure was built in Nun’s Cross on a site donated by Charles George Tottenham of Ballycurry Estate. In 1881 a red brick extension was added and the school became know as “The Crofton School”. This name was to be placed in a conspicuous position and in conspicuous characters on the front of the schoolhouse. So it is today, still to be seen over the front door of the building.

1877 Nun’s Cross N.S
1881 The Crofton School
1992 Cross Nun’s

The present owners have added the last entry humorously.

All Above from this website:
http://www.nunscross.ie/history.html

Also i seen on Google maps the house across the road is known as the old teachers house

Hope this helps:pac:

Enniskerryhist

vickers209 wrote: »

There's the old school house in nuns cross ashford pic below

Thanks a million for that. This school is unusual as it's full name is marked on 1837 map (makes things so much easier!). It was originally supported by John Synge's father. The Hutchinsons are curious as they supported schools in random places, not just one area. Good to have the picture. Interesting about the teacher's house, I hadn't spotted that before. They were a husband and wife team in the 1820s, George and Mary Harrison.

Thank you, it all helps!
Michael

brayblue24

OP here are the photos as promised. They're not as spectacular as I remembered, however. They were taken on the Wicklow Way 10 years ago with a 2mp camera as I said. That said, if they're any use to you PM me and I'll email them to you

Alun

brayblue24 wrote: »

OP here are the photos as promised. They're not as spectacular as I remembered, however. They were taken on the Wicklow Way 10 years ago with a 2mp camera as I said. That said, if they're any use to you PM me and I'll email them to you

This is it in 2009 ...

http://goo.gl/maps/Isszp

I've been past it since and it looks occupied.

Enniskerryhist

brayblue24 wrote: »

OP here are the photos as promised. They're not as spectacular as I remembered, however. They were taken on the Wicklow Way 10 years ago with a 2mp camera as I said. That said, if they're any use to you PM me and I'll email them to you

Thanks, appreciate you digging those out. The one with the lattice window is cute! Many thanks.

Enniskerryhist

Alun wrote: »

This is it in 2009 ...

http://goo.gl/maps/Isszp

I've been past it since and it looks occupied.

Yes I was wondering if it had been extended, but the original footprint in 1837 looks quite extensive.
http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,704415,677346,7,7

Enniskerryhist

Hi all,

Just coming back to this post to say the book is now done and winging its way to local bookshops/online. Thanks again for all the contributions, they were very helpful.
Regards,
Michael

dogmatix

Just came across this thread today, so probably too late to mention the old two room national school beside Arklow Rock on the road to clogga strand. it is dated 1921 (and about 100 years outside your desired period) and looks like it was used as a house until sometime in the early 2000's. Still looks to be in good condition although starting to look very tatty and the schoolyard is overgrown.

Enniskerryhist

dogmatix wrote: »

Just came across this thread today, so probably too late to mention the old two room national school beside Arklow Rock on the road to clogga strand. it is dated 1921 (and about 100 years outside your desired period) and looks like it was used as a house until sometime in the early 2000's. Still looks to be in good condition although starting to look very tatty and the schoolyard is overgrown.

Hey, thanks for the information - one of the main reasons for doing this was to build up a log of old schoolhouses, so it's always good to find out about more.
Thank you,
Michael

MouseTail

dogmatix wrote: »

Just came across this thread today, so probably too late to mention the old two room national school beside Arklow Rock on the road to clogga strand. it is dated 1921 (and about 100 years outside your desired period) and looks like it was used as a house until sometime in the early 2000's. Still looks to be in good condition although starting to look very tatty and the schoolyard is overgrown.

It was run as a hostel by Catholic Youth Care I think.

shinny

Another, for future reference!! The old school in Rathnew. I think it's a pigeon club now. http://tinyurl.com/o9ubd4y