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Business/Accounting/Economics Teaching

  • 05-08-2013 12:57pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭✭✭ comment.that


    Hi Everyone,

    Background:

    - Recently completed 3 year training contract with a Big 4 firm;
    - Sucessfully obtained my ACA exams
    - Master of Accounting, UCD;
    - Completed Bachelor of Commerce in UCD majoring in Accountancy

    After all of this I really do not enjoy working in an office environment, i pretty much despise the whole culture. I've always wanted to get into teaching and am prepared to start saving to commence the course with Hibernia next year. I have read through a few similar posts on here but have not been able to fully figure out the current situation.

    Is there anyone here who can give me good solid advise on the situation out there to help me fully understand what I'm getting into.

    - Am I qualified to teach these three subjects.
    - I understand the jobs situation is not great but are there sucess stories, do people end up getting a permanent job in the long run?

    I want to hear all the pros and cons here, if anyone else in a similar situation or has made this move I would like to hear how you got on.

    Would very much appreciate constructive advise from someone in the know here!


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 17,020 ✭✭✭✭ Iused2likebusts


    Hi Everyone,

    Background:

    - Recently completed 3 year training contract with a Big 4 firm;
    - Sucessfully obtained my ACA exams
    - Master of Accounting, UCD;
    - Completed Bachelor of Commerce in UCD majoring in Accountancy

    After all of this I really do not enjoy working in an office environment, i pretty much despise the whole culture. I've always wanted to get into teaching and am prepared to start saving to commence the course with Hibernia next year. I have read through a few similar posts on here but have not been able to fully figure out the current situation.

    Is there anyone here who can give me good solid advise on the situation out there to help me fully understand what I'm getting into.

    - Am I qualified to teach these three subjects.
    - I understand the jobs situation is not great but are there sucess stories, do people end up getting a permanent job in the long run?

    I want to hear all the pros and cons here, if anyone else in a similar situation or has made this move I would like to hear how you got on.

    Would very much appreciate constructive advise from someone in the know here!
    Was in the same boat 10 years ago best decision Ive ever made. Obviously its tougher now than it was ten years ago to get into teaching and you will earn more money working in an office. However you will be working for the next 40/50 years and are better off doing something your passionate about. As far as I know yo will be qualified to teach the 3 subjects. Accountancy is a great subject to teach.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭✭✭ comment.that


    Was in the same boat 10 years ago best decision Ive ever made. Obviously its tougher now than it was ten years ago to get into teaching and you will earn more money working in an office. However you will be working for the next 40/50 years and are better off doing something your passionate about. As far as I know yo will be qualified to teach the 3 subjects. Accountancy is a great subject to teach.

    thank you, GREAT to hear a positive story, keep them coming if theres anymore out there!

    I'm basically 95% sure I'm going to do this so some feedback from somone else who has been looking for a job teaching these subjects recently would be appreciated.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,089 ✭✭✭ RealJohn


    I don't have any background in those subjects so I don't really know what's involved in the qualifications you've posted but I would think you're definitely qualified to teach accountancy (once you're qualified to teach) but so wouldn't count on being qualified to teach the others as your qualifications appear (to me - I could well be wrong) to be very accountancy centred. You'll be fine for leaving cert accountancy and junior cert business but leaving cert business and economics will depending on how much of them you've done outside of accountancy modules.

    Though like the previous poster mentioned, accountancy teachers aren't that easy to come by so you might do alright with just that anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,222 ✭✭✭✭ rainbowtrout


    There is a list of accepted qualifications on the Teaching Council website. See if your qualifications are listed on it and what subjects you would be allowed to teach as a result. 30% of the credits in your degree have to be relevant to the subject and you have to have taken it to final year.

    http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/_fileupload/Registration/AutoQuals/Autoquals%20updated%2025%20April%202013.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 964 ✭✭✭ highly1111


    you're probably qualified to teach accounting and JC business - but I would very much doubt that you have enough credits for economics (and i could be corrected about Business) I'm qualified to teach all 3 after a horrific process with appeals to the teaching council. I was in finance too and I went back to teaching later in life and I absolutely love it. However, I've gone from one temporary contract to another and there is absolutely no job security - it does become tiresome when you're constantly changing and meeting new people/students/schools etc. I now have 3 children and I simply cannot afford to teach full time and I've got a teaching job at night in a private college - the cost of childcare would just be too much otherwise. However, I'm not teaching full time half by design and half by circumstance - I haven't seen one job advertised for the subjects in Dublin.

    I suppose my ultimate advice is that if you really want to teach - you will have no regrets. I know that I would have far regretted staying with my old job/career and even though I was very "successful" (read earning a great salary and good job security) I was miserable. My personal circumstances have changed massively (3 children in 5 years) and if I was permanent things would be fantastic but obviously at the moment I've had to step back from working full time - but I love my work life balance at the moment and I wouldn't change it (although it can be absolutely knackering!) and I'm really hopeful that in a few years I'll be able to go back to secondary full time.

    Finally - do not underestimate how bad the job market is. The majority of my dip year have now emigrated (mainly to the UK) and those remaining in Ireland have had to move/relocate several times in order to stay working. I also have a masters, years in industry and am big into sports so could contribute hugely to extra curricular activities but you'll (like me) be competing with those who have years and years teaching experience and competition for even sick leave contracts is massive.

    good luck with your decision and if you've any questions - ask away.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,952 smcgiff


    .... double post


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,952 smcgiff


    OP,

    With your ACA qualification you can teach Business Studies and Accounting, but not economics (ACCA & CPA allows all three strangely enough).

    Did your other degrees include economics?

    BTW, to others - a professional accounting qualification covers a lot more than just accounting. It covers most if not all business subjects such as marketing, strategy, HR and IT. Just saying... :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭ seavill


    smcgiff wrote: »
    OP,

    With your ACA qualification you can teach Business Studies and Accounting, but not economics (ACCA & CPA allows all three strangely enough).

    Did your other degrees include economics?

    BTW, to others - a professional accounting qualification covers a lot more than just accounting. It covers most if not all business subjects such as marketing, strategy, HR and IT. Just saying... :)

    Don't think anyone is saying any different its just everyone here has experience of how tricky and specific the Teaching council requirements for everything are so people are wary of things rather that just presuming as its not always as straight forward as it appears with them


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭ Mardy Bum


    smcgiff wrote: »
    OP,

    With your ACA qualification you can teach Business Studies and Accounting, but not economics (ACCA & CPA allows all three strangely enough).

    Did your other degrees include economics?

    BTW, to others - a professional accounting qualification covers a lot more than just accounting. It covers most if not all business subjects such as marketing, strategy, HR and IT. Just saying... :)

    These are not subjects in the south in post primary schools. I seriously doubt it covers computers either in post primary. Pretty sure all you need is the methodology as its not an exam.


  • Registered Users Posts: 942 ✭✭✭ Enright


    You would be qualified to teach LCVP - Enterprise Modules and possibly LCA - Vocational Prep & Guidance - possibly other


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,340 CMod ✭✭✭✭ spurious


    IT is an exam and a subject in the LCA. You could probably teach that - I do. At least you could once you were in the school - I don't know if the TC would register you for it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭✭✭ comment.that


    highly1111 wrote: »
    you're probably qualified to teach accounting and JC business - but I would very much doubt that you have enough credits for economics (and i could be corrected about Business) I'm qualified to teach all 3 after a horrific process with appeals to the teaching council. I was in finance too and I went back to teaching later in life and I absolutely love it. However, I've gone from one temporary contract to another and there is absolutely no job security - it does become tiresome when you're constantly changing and meeting new people/students/schools etc. I now have 3 children and I simply cannot afford to teach full time and I've got a teaching job at night in a private college - the cost of childcare would just be too much otherwise. However, I'm not teaching full time half by design and half by circumstance - I haven't seen one job advertised for the subjects in Dublin.

    I suppose my ultimate advice is that if you really want to teach - you will have no regrets. I know that I would have far regretted staying with my old job/career and even though I was very "successful" (read earning a great salary and good job security) I was miserable. My personal circumstances have changed massively (3 children in 5 years) and if I was permanent things would be fantastic but obviously at the moment I've had to step back from working full time - but I love my work life balance at the moment and I wouldn't change it (although it can be absolutely knackering!) and I'm really hopeful that in a few years I'll be able to go back to secondary full time.

    Finally - do not underestimate how bad the job market is. The majority of my dip year have now emigrated (mainly to the UK) and those remaining in Ireland have had to move/relocate several times in order to stay working. I also have a masters, years in industry and am big into sports so could contribute hugely to extra curricular activities but you'll (like me) be competing with those who have years and years teaching experience and competition for even sick leave contracts is massive.

    good luck with your decision and if you've any questions - ask away.


    when you say you go from one temporary contract to another does that literally mean you need to sign on every summer. sorry if this is a stupid question as i'm just a bit confused with the amount of different contract types.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭✭✭ comment.that


    smcgiff wrote: »
    OP,

    With your ACA qualification you can teach Business Studies and Accounting, but not economics (ACCA & CPA allows all three strangely enough).

    Did your other degrees include economics?

    BTW, to others - a professional accounting qualification covers a lot more than just accounting. It covers most if not all business subjects such as marketing, strategy, HR and IT. Just saying... :)

    my degrees did include economics modules. it was basically 2 subjects in bothe of the first two years. we covered pretty much all the business subjects broadly over the first two years of the degree.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,222 ✭✭✭✭ rainbowtrout


    my degrees did include economics modules. it was basically 2 subjects in bothe of the first two years. we covered pretty much all the business subjects broadly over the first two years of the degree.

    But did you take them to final year, that is what the Teaching Council is usually looking for?


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,222 ✭✭✭✭ rainbowtrout


    when you say you go from one temporary contract to another does that literally mean you need to sign on every summer. sorry if this is a stupid question as i'm just a bit confused with the amount of different contract types.

    If you get a one year contract, it is just that, usually from September to the following August and you will be paid for the summer. If it is a fixed term contract as the name suggests it can be for a fixed period of time such as a sick leave or maternity leave and typically does not include holiday pay as you are covering someone else's job so if you didn't have any other form of income you would have to sign on. Fixed term can be your own hours too but it might be a contract which does not include the summer holidays.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,089 ✭✭✭ RealJohn


    my degrees did include economics modules. it was basically 2 subjects in bothe of the first two years. we covered pretty much all the business subjects broadly over the first two years of the degree.
    I covered roughly that much biology in my degree but the TC don't recognise me as a biology teacher (though I've taught it anyway in the past). They tend to be quite strict on what they'll register you for.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭✭✭ comment.that


    But did you take them to final year, that is what the Teaching Council is usually looking for?

    No, the final year was pretty much just Accountancy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭ Mardy Bum


    No, the final year was pretty much just Accountancy.

    The modules need to be spread across all of your years in college with at least one third being in the subject.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,952 smcgiff


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    These are not subjects in the south in post primary schools. I seriously doubt it covers computers either in post primary. Pretty sure all you need is the methodology as its not an exam.

    Dear god, no - I didn't mean they could teach IT, but they would be able to teach Business Studies. I got the impression from above that people assumed Accounting professional exams only covered Accounting.

    ACCA's, for example, are approved for Accounting, Business Studies and Economics up to LC.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭ Mardy Bum


    smcgiff wrote: »
    Dear god, no - I didn't mean they could teach IT, but they would be able to teach Business Studies. I got the impression from above that people assumed Accounting professional exams only covered Accounting.

    ACCA's, for example, are approved for Accounting, Business Studies and Economics up to LC.

    Apologies. I think you are right in the assumption.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 689 donegal11


    smcgiff wrote: »
    Dear god, no - I didn't mean they could teach IT, but they would be able to teach Business Studies. I got the impression from above that people assumed Accounting professional exams only covered Accounting.

    ACCA's, for example, are approved for Accounting, Business Studies and Economics up to LC.

    They're tightening up on that now, what the teaching council list on it's website might not apply look at all the engineers not qualified to teach math even though it's listed online. There is no economic subject on any accounting qualification so it's unlikely that you'd be qualified to teach it now and for Business they would be looking at module codes/content choices.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭ Mardy Bum


    donegal11 wrote: »
    They're tightening up on that now, what the teaching council list on it's website might not apply look at all the engineers not qualified to teach math even though it's listed online. There is no economic subject on any accounting qualification so it's unlikely that you'd be qualified to teach it now and for Business they would be looking at module codes/content choices.

    According to PAC it is on the recognised degrees.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19 ✭✭✭ debz61288


    I got assessed by the teaching council this year to have my subjects approved and you need to have 54 ect credits in a subject to be approved. So if you have such credits from your studies, you shouldn't have a problem.
    It's a pricey process however getting approved by the TC but lets hope this teaching business is all worth it in the end :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,359 whiteandlight


    I can't speak as to the teaching council but just in response to the jobs situation:

    Things are dreadful. I love to teach and I'm glad I choose it but I'm also glad I've got no dependents. This is an oversubscribed market and you will go from temp contract to temp contract-assuming you even get one. A friend of mine (despite a very good degree and dip and decent subjects) got their first contract this year that will pay for the summer after five years of subbing work.

    The new ASTI head has in her press release that it is usual to be up to 10 years before 'permanency' and permanent nowadays means a CID which contract can be broken in certain circumstances.


    Do it if you really want to teach but go in with your eyes open. Best of luck


  • Registered Users Posts: 964 ✭✭✭ highly1111


    when you say you go from one temporary contract to another does that literally mean you need to sign on every summer. sorry if this is a stupid question as i'm just a bit confused with the amount of different contract types.


    not at all - it is confusing. Basically there are 4 main reasons why a position would arise:
    • sick leave
    • maternity leave
    • career break
    • retirement
    For the first two, you are paid an hourly rate of around €44 per hour. You are only paid for the hours you work and obviously you are not paid for school holidays. However 22% of this rate is considered holiday pay so if you worked say from January to June on this type of contract you may not be entitled to any social welfare for the Easter holidays or for a portion of the summer holidays. If you haven't got enough hours you may be entitled to sign on straight away but generally this isn't the case - for example for one Easter I was entitled to just one weeks social welfare. Social welfare are well used to dealing with teachers though and will be able to guide you if and when it arises.

    For a career break you are simply taking over the other teacher's contract so you are entitled to all the benefits that they are - so you receive a salary and you will be paid for all holidays - your contract runs from 1/9 - 31/8. A career break contract can last from 1 year to 5.

    For a retirement or any other type of vacancy (e.g. teacher leaving the profession) you start a CID which is a contract of infinite of duration and you "own" the hours - unlike other contracts where you are borrowing them! The contract could start with something like 8 hours a week and the teaching salary is based on a 22 hour week. When this happens you get 8/22 of your salary and are paid that salary for the year. This is why you will often hear teachers debating about what type of contract to take - getting your own hours is better in the long term but if you're offered a 22 hour career break then it's more money but less job security. Of course this all depends on the number of hours. Once you had a CID contract for 4 years you became permanent. However, this is not always the case and maybe some more experienced teachers/boardsies might explain this further.

    I've never had my own hours. I've done a few sick leave contracts ranging from 3 weeks to 5 months and several maternity leaves. I've had 1 year career break contract and then a few short term contracts (never more than a term) in a few private schools where I haven't been department paid. It's incredibly uncertain and you'll be signing on and off continually. If you need a steady income it's not the profession to go into - thankfully my husband earns a good salary and that's why I was able to do it for as long as I did.

    The job market is horrific and you'd also be starting on a salary of about €27k - and that's based on a 22 hour week. Personally if I were you I'd look at trying to get some part time lecturing (similar to what i'm doing) in one of the private colleges to keep you going. You'd be qualified to teach in a private college like Griffith College, NCI, DBS etc (assuming you're in Dublin) with your Masters and that would give you some level of income throughout doing your PDE and whilst trying to secure secondary teaching work. It'll also give you a flavour for teaching and an idea of workload. There are obviously loads of differences between 2nd and 3rd level - and I far prefer 2nd level by an absolute mile - but it would be an idea to try and get a few evening hours and do it maybe for a year before you fork out thousands on the PDE to get a qualification in an already far saturated market.

    Anyway, sorry for the essay. Hope it helps.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,222 ✭✭✭✭ rainbowtrout


    highly1111 wrote: »
    For a retirement or any other type of vacancy (e.g. teacher leaving the profession) you start a CID which is a contract of infinite of duration and you "own" the hours - unlike other contracts where you are borrowing them! The contract could start with something like 8 hours a week and the teaching salary is based on a 22 hour week. When this happens you get 8/22 of your salary and are paid that salary for the year. This is why you will often hear teachers debating about what type of contract to take - getting your own hours is better in the long term but if you're offered a 22 hour career break then it's more money but less job security. Of course this all depends on the number of hours. Once you had a CID contract for 4 years you became permanent. However, this is not always the case and maybe some more experienced teachers/boardsies might explain this further.


    This bit is not accurate. You don't start on a CID when you get your own hours, your contract is PRPT (Pro-Rata Part Time). CID is a contract of indefinite duration which you only get if you are on your own hours for four years in a row and you are contracted to start your fifth year in the school. The CID which you get at the start of the fifth year is determined by the number of hours you were contracted to teach in your fourth year. Once you get your CID you are guaranteed that number of hours from that point on, but can be given extra hours above that on a year to year basis assuming you are not on 22 hours. CID is effectively the same as permanency but it does not say permanent on the contract.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,136 ✭✭✭ stunner dunner


    OP have you considered 3rd level, or only 2nd?

    There may be part-time teaching opportunities in certain 3rd level institutions, lack of PhD would be an issue but not insurmountable, particularly in the private colleges


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 122 ✭✭ teach88


    debz61288 wrote: »
    I got assessed by the teaching council this year to have my subjects approved and you need to have 54 ect credits in a subject to be approved. So if you have such credits from your studies, you shouldn't have a problem.
    It's a pricey process however getting approved by the TC but lets hope this teaching business is all worth it in the end :)

    Yea, 54 credits over the course of the whole degree. I've heard there are even plans to increase it to 60 credits in the future.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭✭✭ comment.that


    thanks everyone for your help its much appreciated & will definitely help me go into this wiht my eyes open. Now to bite the bullet and go for it & stop talking about it!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3 HRJB


    Hi All,

    In a related post, wondering if anyone's done the Hibernian course for secondary HDip in Accounting/Economics/Business Studies....how you found the course and any employment feedback since completion....Teaching council tell me I'm good for all three subjects...I'm a CIMA Accountant with BA Economics, (and a Management MSc)

    I'm a mature student with 2 small kids awaiting my interview outcome, but would like to be informed, before I make a decision if offered a place ....and they request my course payment!

    Thanks


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