ESB Strke threat for Autumn 2013

Twickers

The Dublin Bus strike came in to effect after 14 Months of talks.
With the ESB now threatening possible similar action in August ?, are politicians going to do anything about it - Sorry, silly post - they are on holiday until September

Sierra Oscar

Havent being following the dispute within ESB much, I am guessing it is over proposed wage reductions? Have they balloted for industrial action, or is a ballot even scheduled yet?

allthedoyles

Part of the row is rooted in the fact that since the plan to address the deficit uncovered in 2010 was implemented, the company’s accounts have treated the pension scheme as defined contribution rather than defined benefit, which means it is no longer liable for any deficits in the scheme

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/energy-and-resources/esb-unions-to-consider-strike-in-row-over-1-7-billion-pensions-deficit-1.1475346

the_syco

http://www.ifg.ie/Content/media-and-news/industry-news/13-07-26/ESB_unions_to_consider_strike_in_row_over_%E2%82%AC1_7_billion_pensions_deficit.aspx

The ESB’s unions are threatening to strike and are refusing to co-operate with further cost-cutting measures at the State-owned energy group as the row over the €1.7 billion pension shortfall continues.

The ESB group of unions claims the company is refusing to recognise the pension pot’s shortfall, which would leave current staff with just 4 per cent of their benefits should the plan be wound up.

not really sure how such a large shortfall could exist? Did someone f**k up on the shares?

DoesNotCompute

Twickers wrote: »

The Dublin Bus strike came in to effect after 14 Months of talks.
With the ESB now threatening possible similar action in August ?, are politicians going to do anything about it - Sorry, silly post - they are on holiday until September

Why would politicians get involved in a dispute between unions and their employers? That's what the Labour Court is there for.

raymon

Are these the same ESB workers that are on €85,000

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/revealed-a-startling-array-of-perks-on-offer-for-esb-staff-26767643.html

Really ? They are going on strike ? You must be joking

hfallada

If this was the 1991 all over again I think everyone would be panicking as the only electricity company could possible plunge the country in darkest.

But in 2013 there is several electricity companies and a massive interconnector to the UK. The unions doesnt really have that much bargaining power now. There is no longer a single company controlling the market. The ESB seriously needs to reduce its over generous pensions and wages which are twice the industrial average.

the_syco

hfallada wrote: »

But in 2013 there is several electricity companies and a massive interconnector to the UK.

Since this pension fund existed for the last couple of decades, it could also effect other parts of what used to be the ESB, and thus they may join the strike as well?

spank_inferno

Is the pension defecit down to reckless management or insufficient contributions?

Sir Humphrey Appleby

Twickers wrote: »

The Dublin Bus strike came in to effect after 14 Months of talks.
With the ESB now threatening possible similar action in August ?, are politicians going to do anything about it - Sorry, silly post - they are on holiday until September

Really, so you equate no pleanary sittings of the Dail with all politicans being on holiday, um interesting.
I presume you believe that no public offical antwhere in the world should be allowed holidays while holding office then?

Sierra Oscar

hfallada wrote: »

If this was the 1991 all over again I think everyone would be panicking as the only electricity company could possible plunge the country in darkest.

But in 2013 there is several electricity companies and a massive interconnector to the UK. The unions doesnt really have that much bargaining power now. There is no longer a single company controlling the market. The ESB seriously needs to reduce its over generous pensions and wages which are twice the industrial average.

Does the strike action not threaten the ESB as a whole, and not just Electric Ireland?

ESB control electricity generation throughout the state. If the entire ESB group went on strike it would cause significant disruption to electricity supply.

PucaMama

Will this interupt electricity supply

Hootanany

Greed pure greed.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Does the strike action not threaten the ESB as a whole, and not just Electric Ireland?

ESB control electricity generation throughout the state. If the entire ESB group went on strike it would cause significant disruption to electricity supply.

No they dont, Bord Gais have one of the biggest power generation plants in the state, down in Cork.
Several companys now generate power, and also we still have the interconnecter operated by Eirgrid.

Sierra Oscar

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

No they dont, Bord Gais have one of the biggest power generation plants in the state, down in Cork.
Several companys now generate power, and also we still have the interconnecter operated by Eirgrid.

Fair enough, although last time I checked the electricity generation capacity of the entire state is just over 7,000 MW's of electricity. The ESB control (or at least claim to!) 4,000 of that generation capacity.

There would still be significant disruption if ESB went on strike, to such an extent that it would be likely that rolling blackouts would have to be implemented if any industrial action was long term.

Using the inter-connector doesn't come cheap! You are right though, this isint like the old days when we had nothing else to rely on but the ESB. The unions would have to weigh up a lot more potential costs this time around if they were to seriously think of striking. Similar enough story with Dublin Bus this time around with the existence of the Luas and private operators as compared to the past.

spank_inferno

spank_inferno wrote: »

Is the pension defecit down to reckless management or insufficient contributions?

Anyone know the answer to this point?

Sir Humphrey Appleby

Their own union leader described them as "spoilt", and "enjoying the gravy" not too long ago ffs!

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0901/305605-esb/

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/esb-paying-80000-to-union-boss-who-called-members-spoilt-26766953.html

circadian

Hootanany wrote: »

Greed pure greed.

If you worked and paid into a pension plan that now will potentially only pay 4% of what you should be getting, you would just take it on the chin?

I'm all for the strikes. I love having a bus service, I can barely live with no internet access but it's about time workers stood up for themselves.

This whole recession has been a scam, taxing people for the weakest reasons (dont get me started on the broadcast charge) taking pensions and paying off debts of what were privately owned banks.

With the cost of living spiralling and the insecurity of pensions (which should be solid) who wouldn't strike??

Hopefully there's a resolution without strike action, but if it has to happen then so be it.

spank_inferno

circadian wrote: »

If you worked and paid into a pension plan that now will potentially only pay 4% of what you should be getting, you would just take it on the chin?

Well, all group pension funds, state or company are the same as a Ponzi Scheme.

the 4% you mention is a worst case scenario for those just entering the scheme.

However the real question to ask:
Why is there such a deficit in the fund?

nesf

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Fair enough, although last time I checked the electricity generation capacity of the entire state is just over 7,000 MW's of electricity. The ESB control (or at least claim to!) 4,000 of that generation capacity.

I think that's just the conventional power plants, not counting any contribution from wind etc.

Sierra Oscar

nesf wrote: »

I think that's just the conventional power plants, not counting any contribution from wind etc.

Fairly certain it includes wind and hydroelectric capacity also, although the figures could be a couple of years outdated by now.

EDIT: Figures found in the EirGrid Generation Adequacy Report 2010 - 2016.

nesf

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Fairly certain it includes wind and hydroelectric capacity also, although the figures could be a couple of years outdated by now.

EDIT: Figures found in the EirGrid Generation Adequacy Report 2010 - 2016.

Yeah, that figure from above doesn't include wind. It does include large scale hydro though.

Sierra Oscar

nesf wrote: »

Yeah, that figure from above doesn't include wind. It does include large scale hydro though.

I used the following figure from the report:

In the last number of years there has been a rapid increase in installed wind generation. Installed capacity has grown from 145 MW at the end of 2002 to 1167 MW at the time of writing. There is also a further 1348 MW of wind generation committed 26 to connection. The location and capacity of all connected and committed wind farms can be seen in Figure 4-3, while Appendix 2 contains detailed tables.

Admittedly a couple of years old, but wind generated electricity still only accounts for a small portion of our overall generation capacity as a state, and that remains the case even when you include the number of committed wind farms.

nesf

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I used the following figure from the report:



Admittedly a couple of years old, but wind generated electricity still only accounts for a small portion of our overall generation capacity as a state, and that remains the case even when you include the number of committed wind farms.

I was working off Page 35.

Hootanany

circadian wrote: »

If you worked and paid into a pension plan that now will potentially only pay 4% of what you should be getting, you would just take it on the chin?

I'm all for the strikes. I love having a bus service, I can barely live with no internet access but it's about time workers stood up for themselves.

This whole recession has been a scam, taxing people for the weakest reasons (dont get me started on the broadcast charge) taking pensions and paying off debts of what were privately owned banks.

With the cost of living spiralling and the insecurity of pensions (which should be solid) who wouldn't strike??

Hopefully there's a resolution without strike action, but if it has to happen then so be it.

The Government raided my personal pension plan,and I took it on the chin.
Where will ESB get the shortfall?
They will jack up the electric rate so you can justify your pension.

Curly Judge

Brendan Ogle was on the midday news on RTE just now saying that unless the ESB agree to fund any shortfalls in their pension scheme and agree to treat it as a defined benefit scheme, they will ballot their members seeking strike action.
Presumably we can now look forward to a winter of discontent as these, already overpaid, fat cats sabotage the country's recovery.

murphaph

We might "need" a winter of discontent to rid us of the stranglehold these unionised sectors have exercised over the past number of decades. I sympathise with anyone whose pension fund is smaller than they hoped for, but if a DB scheme is not solvent, it's not solvent. Many companies have wound such schemes up int he past and converted them to DC schemes instead. DB schemes are as already stated, nothing more than Ponzi schemes (that includes the state pension by the way) that rely on more and more new members paying in. They are generally unsustainable,

Curly Judge

Was talking to a retired ESB worker the other day and he claims that the govt. took 70 million out of their pension fund in recent years.
Was this part of the great 2011/12 raid on private pensions or is he confusing it with the dividend the ESB are obliged to pay the state and which some ESB workers seem to think should be used to satin-line their pension fund?

Good loser

Curly Judge wrote: »

Was talking to a retired ESB worker the other day and he claims that the govt. took 70 million out of their pension fund in recent years.
Was this part of the great 2011/12 raid on private pensions or is he confusing it with the dividend the ESB are obliged to pay the state and which some ESB workers seem to think should be used to satin-line their pension fund?

I bet it's the latter.

Curly Judge

Today RTE reported that they were in possession of Emails which suggested somewhat opaque three card trick work on behalf of senior management in ESB.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1020/481538-esb-pensions/

Wonder why these were released at this stage?
One thing I'm sure of: it'll be the usual stool pigeons picking up the tab [either directly or indirectly] for these ponzi scheme, defined benefit pensions.
Just like we'll have to in the case of the Waterford Crystal workers?
The thought of the taxpayer financing these so called "entitlements" where guys who pay in 8.5% of their wages and expect 40% of their final salary in copper fastened pensions is enough to make a bluebottle vomit.

Kiltennel

ESB will be shooting themselves in the foot if this happens. If my electricity is disrupted I will be going straight to a competitor, the prices in the utilities market are fairly similar. Typical semi-state overpaid attitude, could be a vastly more profitable company if they brought their wages in line with the industrial average.

nesf

Kiltennel wrote: »

ESB will be shooting themselves in the foot if this happens. If my electricity is disrupted I will be going straight to a competitor, the prices in the utilities market are fairly similar. Typical semi-state overpaid attitude, could be a vastly more profitable company if they brought their wages in line with the industrial average.

What competitor? If ESB power stations stop producing power we'll face massive brown-outs regardless of who you pay for your electricity. The ESB don't have a stranglehold on the resale of power any more but they they do still control nearly all of the power generating stations of size.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

nesf wrote: »

What competitor? If ESB power stations stop producing power we'll face massive brown-outs regardless of who you pay for your electricity. The ESB don't have a stranglehold on the resale of power any more but they they do still control nearly all of the power generating stations of size.

Happily several large power stations are not under ESB control including a huge gas burning one in Cork , more importantly they do not control the new interconnector with the UK.
That said they could cause disruption but not on the scale seen in the 1970's or 80's.

Curly Judge

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

Happily several large power stations are not under ESB control including a huge gas burning one in Cork , more importantly they do not control the new interconnector with the UK.
That said they could cause disruption but not on the scale seen in the 1970's or 80's.

"That is a consummation devoutly to be wished for!":)

Cookie_Monster

Are ESB Network and Electric Ireland not separate companies now, which one is this, or is it both?

nesf

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

Happily several large power stations are not under ESB control including a huge gas burning one in Cork , more importantly they do not control the new interconnector with the UK.
That said they could cause disruption but not on the scale seen in the 1970's or 80's.

Thus brownout not blackout. :P

Curly Judge

The bould Brendan was at it again this morning. [9 0'clock news, RTE Radio]
Again saying that he will take his members out on strike if they can't get the ESB to reinstall their defined benefit pensions.
So, one of the group of workers least affected by the financial crisis are now going to add to the misery of those worst affected by withdrawing power coming up to Christmas.
The brazen greed of this crowd knows no bounds?
I urge the government to stand firm against this madness.
There are so many defined benefit schemes in trouble across the nation.... Aer Lingus, Bord na Mona...to name but two, that a stand must be taken to prevent the floodgates opening.
The high court ruling on the percentage of pension we have to pay to the Waterford Crystal workers is probably also imminent and God knows what sort of precedent that will set?

laura2011

raymon wrote: »

Are these the same ESB workers that are on €85,000

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/revealed-a-startling-array-of-perks-on-offer-for-esb-staff-26767643.html

Really ? They are going on strike ? You must be joking

you should check the date on your article, this is old information. Workers took 20 percent pay-cut this year. The AVERAGE wage is about €65,000.
This is made up of regular workers on far lower amounts and the head office guys on large amounts. I know plenty of workers on far lower than 65,000 in the esb. The average figure means nothing.

MY FULL SUPPORT TO THE WORKERS

Curly Judge

laura2011 wrote: »

you should check the date on your article, this is old information. Workers took 20 percent pay-cut this year. The AVERAGE wage is about €65,000.
This is made up of regular workers on far lower amounts and the head office guys on large amounts. I know plenty of workers on far lower than 65,000 in the esb. The average figure means nothing.

MY FULL SUPPORT TO THE WORKERS

News to me?

laura2011

Curly Judge wrote: »

News to me?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/power-cuts-could-be-on-cards-in-esb-dispute-union-chief-warns-29764905.html

Curly Judge

laura2011 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/power-cuts-could-be-on-cards-in-esb-dispute-union-chief-warns-29764905.html

A quote by Mr. Ogle hardly qualifies as evidence.
Is it your position that the ESB workers [exclusivly] suffered a 20% pay cut last year?
Because if you were merely equating whatever cuts they may have suffered with cuts we all have suffered then your earlier comment was disingenuous.

jmayo

hfallada wrote: »

If this was the 1991 all over again I think everyone would be panicking as the only electricity company could possible plunge the country in darkest.

But in 2013 there is several electricity companies and a massive interconnector to the UK. The unions doesnt really have that much bargaining power now. There is no longer a single company controlling the market. The ESB seriously needs to reduce its over generous pensions and wages which are twice the industrial average.

Except who owns and manages the distribution network infrastructure ?
And yes I know that there are now two separate companies for generation and distibution.
In fact AFAIK the ESB itself was broken down like that for years anyway.

These companies would be interlinked and would the pension schemes not have been interlinked.

circadian wrote: »

If you worked and paid into a pension plan that now will potentially only pay 4% of what you should be getting, you would just take it on the chin?

Welcome to the world of a lot of private sector workers sunshine.

laura2011 wrote: »

you should check the date on your article, this is old information. Workers took 20 percent pay-cut this year. The AVERAGE wage is about €65,000.
This is made up of regular workers on far lower amounts and the head office guys on large amounts. I know plenty of workers on far lower than 65,000 in the esb. The average figure means nothing.

MY FULL SUPPORT TO THE WORKERS

Would the ones on less than 65,000 be the ones often found scratching their holes out cutting back trees, etc.
I spent a year at school overlooking an ESB yard.
It really was comical to watch their work methods particularly in the morning or around lunchtime.

laura2011

Curly Judge wrote: »

A quote by Mr. Ogle hardly qualifies as evidence.
Is it your position that the ESB workers [exclusivly] suffered a 20% pay cut last year?
Because if you were merely equating whatever cuts they may have suffered with cuts we all have suffered then your earlier comment was disingenuous.

No not just this quote. It was a 20 percent across the board cut. its not hidden information, came into effect early this year.

laura2011

jmayo wrote: »

Would the ones on less than 65,000 be the ones often found scratching their holes out cutting back trees, etc.
I spent a year at school overlooking an ESB yard.
It really was comical to watch their work methods particularly in the morning or around lunchtime.

Majorly unfair, The average wage is 65,000, Go look up the word average.

Curly Judge

laura2011 wrote: »

No not just this quote. It was a 20 percent across the board cut. its not hidden information, came into effect early this year.

Thanks for the response, and although I'm reluctant to labour the point, I feel that if a 20% reduction in ESB pay had taken place in 2012 we would have all heard about it ...in spades.
Can you provide any other link?

circadian

jmayo wrote: »

Welcome to the world of a lot of private sector workers sunshine.

Don't call me sunshine.

Godge

laura2011 wrote: »

you should check the date on your article, this is old information. Workers took 20 percent pay-cut this year. The AVERAGE wage is about €65,000.
This is made up of regular workers on far lower amounts and the head office guys on large amounts. I know plenty of workers on far lower than 65,000 in the esb. The average figure means nothing.

MY FULL SUPPORT TO THE WORKERS

laura2011 wrote: »

No not just this quote. It was a 20 percent across the board cut. its not hidden information, came into effect early this year.

laura2011 wrote: »

Majorly unfair, The average wage is 65,000, Go look up the word average.

Not exactly true.

The average salary in ESB has dropped to €62,000 not through wage cuts but through retirements of older staff and replacements at lower level.

The average salary also hides the fact that a large part of the remuneration is in the form of allowances and shift and other payments that push up the average.

Pay-cuts have only been applied in Powergen, a small part of ESB. Even then, the highest pay cuts - 17% not 20% only applied to those on salaries above €130,000.

Those earning 62k saw their pay cut by 11%.

ESB is still the best state body to work in.