architect or engineer//costs?

091eddie

Hiya,
New to this..just wonderin can anyone help we planning building bungalow over 2000sq feet should we look at an engineer or architect ..is there huge difference in cost for architect would love different type of house..any suggestions would be great thanks...we building in galway any reccomendations for architect or engineer would be great if you pm me....

kkelliher

091eddie wrote: »

Hiya,
New to this..just wonderin can anyone help we planning building bungalow over 2000sq feet should we look at an engineer or architect ..is there huge difference in cost for architect would love different type of house..any suggestions would be great thanks...we building in galway any reccomendations for architect or engineer would be great if you pm me....

Engineer costs would generally be cheaper than an architect but then you are going to get a different service and level of finish. Architects are best places to give you that "different type of house" as they generally are better suited to design.

Outkast_IRE

In my experience architects input into a home, pays for itself over the lifetime of the Home. Simple design issues, orientation issues, ensuring the design meets all the regulations, they can make a home that functions well.
The engineers input is invaluable when tackling onsite issues .

I think both are pretty important to the job. Along with the a QS to help keep the budget under control (in my opinion a good QS is well worth it)

con1982

If you want a unique design, then you should probably go for an Architect lead design (im an Engineer).

2000sq feet is a substantial house. You are looking at build costs of 250k-350k. Typically a design team, Architect and Engineer, will cost about 10% of the build. You want to be budgeting 25-30k for professional fees.

prewtna

con1982 wrote: »

If you want a unique design, then you should probably go for an Architect lead design (im an Engineer).

2000sq feet is a substantial house. You are looking at build costs of 250k-350k. Typically a design team, Architect and Engineer, will cost about 10% of the build. You want to be budgeting 25-30k for professional fees.

And as suggested elsewhere, get a Quantity Surveyor aswell. Your architect will be able to pull the 'Design Team - Architect, Civil / Structural Engineer and Quantity Surveyor' together and the Architect will lead the charge from the design point of view. If you want a whole pile of techy stuff in terms of complicated / new heating types or, maybe other electrical / data things going on, it is certainly worth considering the advice of an M&E engineer. We are finding their input useful on larger houses and for particular clients.

Our practice is always of the view that if a client cannot afford the basic Design Team as outlined above, then they cannot afford the project. I hope you do not fall into this category.

Best of luck.

kkelliher

prewtna wrote: »

And as suggested elsewhere, get a Quantity Surveyor aswell. Your architect will be able to pull the 'Design Team - Architect, Civil / Structural Engineer and Quantity Surveyor' together and the Architect will lead the charge from the design point of view. If you want a whole pile of techy stuff in terms of complicated / new heating types or, maybe other electrical / data things going on, it is certainly worth considering the advice of an M&E engineer. We are finding their input useful on larger houses and for particular clients.

Our practice is always of the view that if a client cannot afford the basic Design Team as outlined above, then they cannot afford the project. I hope you do not fall into this category.

Best of luck.

of course + 1 for the QS

muffler

kkelliher wrote: »

of course + 1 for the QS

Banned :P

fealeranger

con1982 wrote: »

If you want a unique design, then you should probably go for an Architect lead design (im an Engineer).

2000sq feet is a substantial house. You are looking at build costs of 250k-350k. Typically a design team, Architect and Engineer, will cost about 10% of the build. You want to be budgeting 25-30k for professional fees.

Is this quote to supervise the entire build from start to complete finish:eek:. €35.000 is more than a years wages for some people. My Architect and engineer were €2000 each and build was 3200ftsq. I must have got the deal of the century:p.

kkelliher

fealeranger wrote: »

Is this quote to supervise the entire build from start to complete finish:eek:. €35.000 is more than a years wages for some people. My Architect and engineer were €2000 each and build was 3200ftsq. I must have got the deal of the century:p.

€2000 for architect for a full service is without doubt deal of the century as he must like doing pro bono work (his rate per hour worked must be a couple of euro an hour)

lownhard

First of all, charging based on a percentage value of the project is a big no-no in my opinion. I immediately dismissed anyone who did this. Seems like a throw back to the "good ol' days." Get an architect with a set fee. Our project is in Dublin and the architect fee was €6500 for house design and submitting the planning application and coordinating the design team. Detailed construction drawings will be extra. Engineer was €2k. Both very experienced and provided and excellent service. House circa 210sqm.

prewtna

lownhard wrote: »

First of all, charging based on a percentage value of the project is a big no-no in my opinion. I immediately dismissed anyone who did this. Seems like a throw back to the "good ol' days." Get an architect with a set fee. Our project is in Dublin and the architect fee was €6500 for house design and submitting the planning application and coordinating the design team. Detailed construction drawings will be extra. Engineer was €2k. Both very experienced and provided and excellent service. House circa 210sqm.

I can see why you would do that, as it provides you with a high level of certainty in terms of professional fees, but by the sounds of it you were probably very clear at the outset what service was being provided and probably didn't exasperate the poor architect with never-ending changes!

A lot of people don't seem to share that level of understanding of the situation / relationship e.g. if the project keeps changing or getting bigger, the Architect still has to provide all the additional necessary info, so (s)he can get badly stung when the fee is fixed.

The fixed fee will often be calculated on a percentage basis based on the brief provided by the client usually in terms of floor area. If e.g. the floor area increases substantially, most people don't seem to understand that it involves more work and as such the architect would be entitled to be paid for same whether the fee was fixed or not - as it was additional work outside of the initial Client / Architect Agreement. This in invariably a failure on the Architects part to provide such information to the Client at the beginning.

You seem to have had a good experience with your team (fair play to yourself and your team), an experience all clients should have, this doesn't always happen - when it doesn't, it is invariably due to arguments over fee's.

The €2000 quoted for a full service doesn't sound economically viable. We would provide a full service for many multiples of that. Maybe it was just for planning but even that sounds ridiculously cheap. Does that person not have any overheads at all? Printers? Heat? Staff? OS Licences? Prof Indemnity Insurance? etc etc

lownhard

prewtna wrote: »

The €2000 quoted for a full service doesn't sound economically viable. We would provide a full service for many multiples of that. Maybe it was just for planning but even that sounds ridiculously cheap. Does that person not have any overheads at all? Printers? Heat? Staff? OS Licences? Prof Indemnity Insurance? etc etc

Engineer fee was for consultation with local council, liaising with architect/arborist/landscaper/soak test guys, produce engineering drawings and report to be attached to the application.

Structural work during the build will obviously be extra. I thought the fee was good value considering it was with an established practice and a top guy in there.

prewtna wrote: »

A lot of people don't seem to share that level of understanding

Perhaps you have reached a higher plane of understanding than the rest of us..

I understand that designing a 450sqm will probably take more work than a 150sqm house. However, if the 150sqm house becomes a 170sqm house and costs the client an extra €25000. I fail to see why an architect should see an extra €2500 (10% fee), if this change takes place very early on in the conceptual design stage. Or if the 150sqm house become a higher spec house, should the architect see more fees? For example if the client pays extra for a bespoke staircase, or kitchen. Should the architect be paid more because the project value has increased even if they had nothing to do with its design/purchase?

As a client I much preferred seeing a set fee in the fee proposal and I know there are others I have spoken to who felt the same. The percentage of project value model just annoyed me.

Also architects I was consulting were working off a budget of between €1500 - €2000 sqm for the project value and then taking a percentage of that. What if you intend to only hit the regs and do it as cheaply as possible coming in at €1100sqm?

Anyway, I was happy with what I paid for the services to planning stage.

sinnerboy

lownhard wrote: »

Perhaps you have reached a higher plane of understanding than the rest of us.

Be nice - please

lownhard wrote: »

I understand that designing a 450sqm will probably take more work than a 150sqm house. However, if the 150sqm house becomes a 170sqm house and costs the client an extra €25000. I fail to see why an architect should see an extra €2500 (10% fee), if this change takes place very early on in the conceptual design stage.

If and very caveat this sentence greatly. Conversely if that change takes place after the design is set then the architect should be paid more.

lownhard wrote: »

Or if the 150sqm house become a higher spec house, should the architect see more fees? For example if the client pays extra for a bespoke staircase, or kitchen. Should the architect be paid more because the project value has increased even if they had nothing to do with its design/purchase?

If again. I have worked with some clients who asked for / needed hand holding on all aspects of the house design right down to wall tiles / curtain poles. I charged the fee and they got the service. All happy campers I assure you.

lownhard wrote: »

As a client I much preferred seeing a set fee in the fee proposal and I know there are others I have spoken to who felt the same. The percentage of project value model just annoyed me.

Clients differ in the level of service they need. So do fees charged as consequence.

lownhard wrote: »

Also architects I was consulting were working off a budget of between €1500 - €2000 sqm for the project value and then taking a percentage of that. What if you intend to only hit the regs and do it as cheaply as possible coming in at €1100sqm?

You agree a fee at the start and both parties stick to it. Those architects simply showed you their methodology to set their fixed fee. If you build for a higher or lower cost the architects fee is fixed - that is what you are advocating , yes?

lownhard wrote: »

Anyway, I was happy with what I paid for the services to planning stage.

Who can say fairer ?

lownhard

sinnerboy wrote: »

Be nice - please



If and very caveat this sentence greatly. Conversely if that change takes place after the design is set then the architect should be paid more.



If again. I have worked with some clients who asked for / needed hand holding on all aspects of the house design right down to wall tiles / curtain poles. I charged the fee and they got the service. All happy campers I assure you.



Clients differ in the level of service they need. So do fees charged as consequence.



You agree a fee at the start and both parties stick to it. Those architects simply showed you their methodology to set their fixed fee. If you build for a higher or lower cost the architects fee is fixed - that is what you are advocating , yes?

Who can say fairer ?

My point is that some architects I dealt with were not looking to agree a set price at the start. And I was wary of this. They were looking to agree a "fee formula" based on: SIZE multiplied by PRICE per sqm (which they selected or the SCSI produced) multiplied by Percentage fee.

I preferred the "here is my fee for design of a four bed family home circa X size" Most of these professionals were coming in with the cheaper quotes after I did my sums with the above formula.

No issue with professional getting paid for extra work like interior fit out. Of course they should. However my point never touched on that. My fee proposals were broken down into concept design/detailed design/planning/detailed drawings/supervision/interior fit out and that was helpful.

Caveats help to bring focus at times. If I said a client should be able to change the design completely without recompense for the architect, that would be totally wrong. The caveat of "early in design stage" helps to clarify my thinking. My point was that the affect of adding an additional 20sqm in concept design stage using the pricing formula above means the client ends up with a hefty bill for what may (I'm at it again ) not be a lot of man hours for the designer.

I'm just one client who disliked a particular fee model. I'm sure there are others who don't mind it. We are all learning. As Omar says...

fealeranger

kkelliher wrote: »

Engineer costs would generally be cheaper than an architect but then you are going to get a different service and level of finish. Architects are best places to give you that "different type of house" as they generally are better suited to design.

Come to think of it you are correct. I made a mistake and forgot the percolation,survey and road report.
Architect €1500
Engineer percolation, site survey and road report was €1500
Construction/build engineer was €1500
add €100 for admin and €65 for application.
I didn't entertain the idea of cost per foot either. Anybody who even mentioned it didn't even get a set of drawings to look at. Same applied to guys who mentioned day work.

sinnerboy

lownhard wrote: »

My point is that some architects I dealt with were not looking to agree a set price at the start. And I was wary of this. They were looking to agree a "fee formula" based on: SIZE multiplied by PRICE per sqm (which they selected or the SCSI produced) multiplied by Percentage fee.

I preferred the "here is my fee for design of a four bed family home circa X size" Most of these professionals were coming in with the cheaper quotes after I did my sums with the above formula.

No issue with professional getting paid for extra work like interior fit out. Of course they should. However my point never touched on that. My fee proposals were broken down into concept design/detailed design/planning/detailed drawings/supervision/interior fit out and that was helpful.

Caveats help to bring focus at times. If I said a client should be able to change the design completely without recompense for the architect, that would be totally wrong. The caveat of "early in design stage" helps to clarify my thinking. My point was that the affect of adding an additional 20sqm in concept design stage using the pricing formula above means the client ends up with a hefty bill for what may (I'm at it again ) not be a lot of man hours for the designer.

I'm just one client who disliked a particular fee model. I'm sure there are others who don't mind it. We are all learning. As Omar says...

You don't sound like someone who would buy a car on price alone.

So , to what extent did you compare architects by their what they were selling i.e. their ability to design your house for you ?

lownhard

sinnerboy wrote: »

You don't sound like someone who would buy a car on price alone.

So , to what extent did you compare architects by their what they were selling i.e. their ability to design your house for you ?

Good point and I should have mentioned this. Price was not the only deciding factor and we did not go with the cheapest quote we got. Other relevant factors included a recommendation from an experienced and trusted construction professional, the career experience of the individual, their portfolio of work, their experience working with our local council, their knowledge of modern building techniques, and probably the most over looked factor is their personality. I think it is important that one can "click" their house designer, for want of a better word. The affability of the professional is extremely important. You don't want to work with someone who you dread picking up the phone to because the last time you rang them and wanted to shift a wall 150mm they were short with you on the phone!

I would recommend that you shortlist and meet prospective architects/ATs to suss them out. Price was the key to our shortlisting strategy though!