martial arts for older pranksters

Malolan

Fairly entertaining

http://bjjat50.wordpress.com/

Alphac

Hey There,

Firstly thanks for the article - its very much in the vein of what I wanted to post/ask on boards. Hope you don't mind me throwing my query in here too!

Whilst I am not quite 50 (actually a couple of years shy of 40!) I empathize greatly with the authors plight as an older entrant to the world of martial arts. For me though it comes down to a decision between bjj and judo training. I have an off/on relationship with martial arts going back a number of years - having gone through a job change, babies, return to college at night - and come out the other side with bit of spare time on my hands. I want to go back training to keep fit, learn and make some progress, not much keen on competition side (but wouldn't say no to the odd one!) - I am a standard "recreational player."

There is an excellent bjj place near enough to me; great atmosphere, amazing coach, open every eve during the week and good lads on the mats. However (the cons) bjj appears to be trained mainly for competition, seems that all of the guys there are down 3/4+ times a week - I cant match anything near that and if I am honest rising through the belts/grades is a less tenable prospect than judo. Don't get me wrong I am not touting for a McBlackbelt here, but honestly there is some motivation in earning that next belt.

My other option is a judo club - bit further away, and trains only twice a week. Also excellent coach, nice group of people and costs about the same. There is a much more recreational element in judo, with some older players and those who only compete for grades mixed in with aspiring champions. I have done judo before and spent a lot of time injured! Maybe a bad reflection of my lack of skill, I dont know if bjj is any different.

So my dilemma comes down to these factors, I want to stay training for a good number of years - maybe involve my kids too. I am very committed when I throw my lot in, so I just want to make sure I set off down the right path.

Appreciate any advice out there,
Cheers,
Al.

Doug Cartel

To be honest, you sound like you've already put a good bit of thought into this and you've tried both clubs, so there's not much additional information anyone here can give you. This might sound a bit obvious, but you should go with the one you liked best.

As to the injury rate, I think BJJ is slightly safer, as at least when you're on the ground you don't have to deal with taking a bad fall and having someone land on top of you.

Alphac

Thanks Doug, I appreciate you pointing that out. You wouldn't believe how much I've deliberated over this decision!

Overall the injury rate factor is a no brainer; can't train if you are injured all the time - at 100kgs my aerial ballet is less than dainty to say the least! With this in mind I think that bjj offers a type of training I can sustain for some time.

I do think its a bit of a shame that judo (the gentle way no less!) is such "hard" training. I trained in a few Dublin clubs over the years and found the usual process of learning was by attrition, at the hands of the very nicest people of course. There is something of a "being thrown to the wolves" culture in judo - the new guy gets that left grip ko-ouchi gari you've been meaning to work on! I do have a special place in my heart for that kind of madness, but there's no doubt it scares off people that would otherwise make good training partners and players.

Thanks again for your reply,
Al.

Dermighty

In my experience injuries in BJJ (barring freak accidents) are usually caused by people either putting on submissions with disproportionate force or people refusing to tap until it is too late. That's my 2 cents.

Alphac

Cheers Dermighty, I'll be sure to tap at the first sign of trouble then!!

You are right though, there is an often overlooked aspect of training in protecting sparring/rolling partners too, even if it’s just so you can nail 'em again next time! It's tough enough being the new guy without having to contend with the local sadist.
One thing I have noticed is that most bjj clubs offer a separate fundamentals class - rolling in these groups is technique specific (extensions of what was covered in class). Seems like a good way to integrate live training without becoming a free for all?

Thanks for your input, think it'll be some jitz for me then!

Dermighty

I train in BJJ Cork, the club runs 3 or 4 fundamentals classes a week, which are perfect for beginners, and most of the other guys go too, because the fundamentals are underrated.

It's agreat environment for complete, green beginners. I'd say the biggest thing to overcome when you start BJJ is impatience (I speak for myself). Being patient doesn't come naturally for most people (myself included) but it takes time to see your progress (though others may see it well before you do), so just enjoy the classes and le the progress come naturally.

Enjoy it, as most people who train it will attest, it's f*cking addictive!

Chris89

Alphac wrote: »

Hey There,

Firstly thanks for the article - its very much in the vein of what I wanted to post/ask on boards. Hope you don't mind me throwing my query in here too!

Whilst I am not quite 50 (actually a couple of years shy of 40!) I empathize greatly with the authors plight as an older entrant to the world of martial arts. For me though it comes down to a decision between bjj and judo training. I have an off/on relationship with martial arts going back a number of years - having gone through a job change, babies, return to college at night - and come out the other side with bit of spare time on my hands. I want to go back training to keep fit, learn and make some progress, not much keen on competition side (but wouldn't say no to the odd one!) - I am a standard "recreational player."

There is an excellent bjj place near enough to me; great atmosphere, amazing coach, open every eve during the week and good lads on the mats. However (the cons) bjj appears to be trained mainly for competition, seems that all of the guys there are down 3/4+ times a week - I cant match anything near that and if I am honest rising through the belts/grades is a less tenable prospect than judo. Don't get me wrong I am not touting for a McBlackbelt here, but honestly there is some motivation in earning that next belt.

My other option is a judo club - bit further away, and trains only twice a week. Also excellent coach, nice group of people and costs about the same. There is a much more recreational element in judo, with some older players and those who only compete for grades mixed in with aspiring champions. I have done judo before and spent a lot of time injured! Maybe a bad reflection of my lack of skill, I dont know if bjj is any different.

So my dilemma comes down to these factors, I want to stay training for a good number of years - maybe involve my kids too. I am very committed when I throw my lot in, so I just want to make sure I set off down the right path.

Appreciate any advice out there,
Cheers,
Al.

The right path is whatever suits you and what you enjoy, but in my opinion, if you want to be honest to yourselves and the kids, stay at the place that you will be pushed.

A good club has different standards, not everyone has to train multiple times per day/week to be graded, but at a good club it will probably take a while to be graded if you arent really around that much!

In any case, both places sound good to me!

Dyr

Alphac wrote: »

Thanks Doug, I appreciate you pointing that out. You wouldn't believe how much I've deliberated over this decision!

Overall the injury rate factor is a no brainer; can't train if you are injured all the time - at 100kgs my aerial ballet is less than dainty to say the least! With this in mind I think that bjj offers a type of training I can sustain for some time.

It's not age or mileage, its the maintenance. if you're the wrong side of 35 and your mobility etc is poor then taking up judo or bjj is going to be a challenge.

smacl

Bambi wrote: »

It's not age or mileage, its the maintenance. if you're the wrong side of 35 and your mobility etc is poor then taking up judo or bjj is going to be a challenge.

47 myself, and was doing a fair bit of stand up wrestling up until the beginning of the summer, also hoping to join the local boxing club shortly with my youngest who's dying to give boxing a go after getting fed up with Karate.

For me, the important parts are listening to your body, knowing when to stop, and allowing for adequate time to recover. Most clubs are very accommodating, and will give you all the time you need to get up to speed. While I haven't tried Judo, the jacket wrestling I have tried (shuai jiao) was much tougher on the body than the body than wrestling without a jacket. Could be that being crap at it played a large part, but scope for injury seemed higher with the jacket, collar and belt grips. YMMV. Great gas though.

splashthecash

Malolan wrote: »

Fairly entertaining

http://bjjat50.wordpress.com/

Only "fairly" entertaining? No thanks...I only read very or better

arybvtcw0eolkf

If injuries and competition are a concern I'd forget about Judo completely.

Judo is genuinely tough, if you don't like competition then I'd forget Judo too as you'll only grade as far as your green belt in the club and have to fight for the rest, and even if you don't intend on competition (lets say you only want to fight for belts) then you're going to have a tougher time of it as gradings are damned savage affairs, there is little craic and the fighting is fierce (you're both fighting for the same belt or points off your dan).

Few Judoka take pleasure from gradings, whereas competitions (for the most part) are good ol' craic and while the fights are still as though there is a different atmosphere and they're hugely enjoyable.

I've never been injured at BJJ and I've no interest in BJJ competition and have never been put under any pressure to compete. You might find BJJ is practiced in a more relaxed & casual environment compared to Judo.

RoboRat

If injuries and competition are a concern I'd forget about Judo completely.

I concur, probably best of with BJJ. I am 36 and doing BJJ and I love it. Lot of the lads are competition fighters with some MMA lads thrown in and its great, really pushes you to up your game. First few months you feel like a tool getting subbed all the time but you get better and once you can defend, then its great fun.

Loved Judo but I carried to many injuries into it and it just wasn't for me.. the thoughts of spending another 6 months in rehab after tearing the cruciate again was enough to put me off. Its a great sport but its also very hard on the body and for me, only starting so late in life, being quite a big bloke with historical injuries, it just wasn't the right match.

smashiner

Hi lads, I took up Kenpo at 37 and really enjoyed it, I am 4 years doing it and I would recommend it to most, as it is not too hard on the body and the Forms and Techniques are fairly good too. I have to do a bit of road running to keep fit as I find that karate isn't too good for cardio (well my club is not anyway ).
Keep swinging and if you get concussion, aim for the middle guy of the three !

Alphac

Thanks very much for the feedback everyone,

Since my initial post I have been able to get down to the bjj place near me a few more times. In short my experience there would agree to what you are all saying. Strikes me that bjj's objective to keep mobile on the ground (as opposed to judo's hold-down/osaekomi approach) creates a more fluid rolling style. This provides a reasonable chance to redeem position before being tapped-out…well occasionally - certainly results in less time locked-up in some beast’s loveless sweaty embrace!

Just a side note on the alternatives to competition promotions in judo, I believe that the IJA (Irish Judo Association) offer the means to accumulate points toward grades by attending/passing various seminars and courses. Not sure if you can matriculate to black belt via this route (and perhaps wouldn’t want to either)?

Brilliant - "It's not age or mileage, it’s the maintenance" quote, and generally this seems to be the key element for the Older Prankster. I presume that martial arts training in and of itself should provide some of that maintenance? In the meantime it’s about keeping heart and learning constantly. I am presuming no one on this forum intends quitting when they turn 40? If not I’ll see you all on the mats for some time to come then!

Thanks again for all the comments.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Alphac wrote: »

Just a side note on the alternatives to competition promotions in judo, I believe that the IJA (Irish Judo Association) offer the means to accumulate points toward grades by attending/passing various seminars and courses. Not sure if you can matriculate to black belt via this route (and perhaps wouldn’t want to either)?

I've never heard of that tbh.. And I'd rather fight for my belts anyway.

Alphac

Walker Damp Pickax wrote: »

I've never heard of that tbh.. And I'd rather fight for my belts anyway.

I don’t disagree with you Walker Damp Pickax, but I do think that a path of progression outside the arena competition offers a different but equally valid means of reaching technical advancement. And honestly, not many take judo katas too seriously beyond the means to an end in grading. I think that some grading officer level coaches can now test in club and leave only the fighting for the day of the grading (open to correction here).
I would argue that in keeping with the spirit of fighting for grades some level of live application should be upheld, but the process of having to compete AND win to accumulate points naturally narrows the bandwidth of judoka above green belt; as you noted fighting for grades is no fun. Would the IJA do better to award points (albeit lower) for participation in tournaments regardless of outcome? I think it would encourage more people to enter, and as I understand it this has been something of an issue recently.
In keeping with the thread topic, this would mean an older recreational player could acquire points by competing in tournaments to the best of their ability, by passing seminars and perhaps apply more weighting on technical demonstration (rather than your killer tokui waza!). You’d still have progress, at a slower rate, without diminishing the standards required to hold a higher rank.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Good points ~ does competition make a better judoka or a better fighter?.. I've people who've advanced to their dan grades a little too quickly (IMO) by having the time and perseverence to show up at as many gradings and competitions as they could, win their points and get their grade ~ but spend 5 minutes talking about judo with them and their knowledge is pretty shallow and lacking.

Personally I like the idea of fighting for points off your belt, and maybe tighten up the technical tests ~ even drop the Kata in favour of questions and demo's on the syllabus.

Regarding seminars ~ I've never attended one, and I won't either. I see very little value in them tbh.. And besides they're few and far between in judo in Ireland (thankfully).

Just a side note on the alternatives to competition promotions in judo, I believe that the IJA (Irish Judo Association) offer the means to accumulate points toward grades by attending/passing various seminars and courses. Not sure if you can matriculate to black belt via this route (and perhaps wouldn’t want to either)?

I enquired about this last night.. Apparently there is a technical grading to 1st dan, I only know one person who got their dan grade in this way, sadly they've recently passed away and may she rest in peace ~ I really don't know what the criteria is for gaining a technical dan grade.

Alphac

That’s a good point to consider – “better judoka vs. better fighters.” For example my guess is that most clubs stopped training leg grabs and pick-ups when the IJA side-lined them for competition purposes. They are still effective throws but no one’s going to drill and perfect a technique that’ll get you disqualified at your next grading tournament! Ah where’s that lovely drop kata garuma gone…

Walker Damp Pickax wrote: »

I only know one person who got their dan grade in this way, sadly they've recently passed away and may she rest in peace.

I am sorry to hear that, I had lost touch with Phoenix club so hadn’t heard the news. A great loss, wonderful lady.

Doug Cartel

To be honest, they wouldn't have put much time into leg grabs before the rule change. The only big change would probably be the removal of the suki nage counter to uchi mata and similar throws.

You can still do kata guruma without taking a leg, but yeah, given the choice I prefer the leg grab version. Also kata guruma is still taught as it is in the first set of the first kata you learn. Now it's debatable how well you will learn it if you can't do in randori without modification, but it's there.

Alphac

When I was training judo pick-ups and grabs were thought of as "ugly judo." I don't have enough bjj under my little white belt to explain it - but it is conspicuous that most (bjj) take downs are based around the leg grab. I can only assume that distinction lies somewhere about the strategic follow up of action on ground vs. judo striving for the clean ippon(?) Just to be clear I certainly don't challenge the veracity of judo throws at all, in fact one of the (thankfully few) self defense situations I found myself in was resolved by an uchimata, tori - not uki!!

Overall I think that sport judo has changed the "martial art" a bit too much, it really is now a sport -and questioning the rules is akin to asking why a soccer player cant just pick up the ball and run down the pitch to score. I am told that bjj would be no different if it acceded to Olympic status. In the vein of the thread topic, and pin pointed by Makikomi's comment "does competition make a better judoka or a better fighter?" not every aul fellah on the mats wants to be fighter but they all want to be good judoka. Shame this isn't reflected at club and grading level, maybe there would be more of us out on the mats for the young bucks to throw!!

Doug Cartel

Alphac wrote: »

When I was training judo pick-ups and grabs were thought of as "ugly judo."

Yes and no. There are definitely a lot of judo people who do not like leg grabs, but I think most of the people I know see them as legitimate. What judo people hate though is a failed lag grab, so you shouldn't go for them unless you're very sure they're going to work. Beginners have a habit of diving in at ankles they have no hope of catching, so most coaches discourage them from doing those kind of techniques.

it is conspicuous that most (bjj) take downs are based around the leg grab.

I'm sure there there are all sorts of reasons for this, but I can't say that the average BJJ school is where I would go if I wanted to learn take-downs.

Overall I think that sport judo has changed the "martial art" a bit too much, it really is now a sport -and questioning the rules is akin to asking why a soccer player cant just pick up the ball and run down the pitch to score. I am told that bjj would be no different if it acceded to Olympic status.

BJJ is probably just as bad as judo in this respect already, no need to wait for Olympic recognition.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Alphac wrote: »

my guess is that most clubs stopped training leg grabs and pick-ups when the IJA side-lined them for competition purposes. They are still effective throws but no one’s going to drill and perfect a technique that’ll get you disqualified at your next grading tournament!

Portmarnock Judo Club still train under the old rules some nights, but we have some Sambo guys training with us too so it makes sense.

I don't know any other Dublin clubs training with leg grabs now, prior to the changes all clubs trained them, or ignore them would be setting your players up for defeat in competition.

I dislike the new rules immensely.

If you want to train with older lads I'd suggest you give Paul Cummins club over in Walkinstown a try, Paul runs regulars Masters/Vets training days (and open to all levels of judoka).

Alternatively tell your training partners to go easy on you if you find you're out of your depth ~ 99% of experienced Judoka will drop down a few levels for you.. When you find a bully, and there's only one I could point to as a true bully either take your beating and try avoid him or mention it to the head coach, you'll find he already knows he has a problem it a bully and will try keep you away from him.

BJJ ~ its a fact now that you can use more Judo in BJJ than you can in Judo!.. BUT, you'll have nothing to fear, your judo will still be better than almost anyone you'll find in a BJJ club unless they've a background in Judo already.

In an MMA or No-Gi BJJ club you'll find you're going to have to work on your sprawl again, and your grips off the gi will be awful ~ but a week or two and you'll be on top of these little issues and find that an elbow grip, underhook are very powerful new 'grips' for you and a lot of guys will wish to avoid any clinch.

'Leg grabs' and ''ugly judo'' ~ don't listen to that rubbish, you'll also hear ''lazy judo'' for 'Ashi Waza', then 'tall mans judo' 'small mans' judo etc ~ just develop your own judo and don't waste time on labels.

Thats about it.. If you like Judo go and have the craic, if you're worried about injuries then I'd say BJJ is the way to go.. Its still a good workout, massively enjoyable and comes without the impact and risk of injury that comes with Judo.

RoboRat

BJJ ~ its a fact now that you can use more Judo in BJJ than you can in Judo!.. BUT, you'll have nothing to fear, your judo will still be better than almost anyone you'll find in a BJJ club unless they've a background in Judo already.

In an MMA or No-Gi BJJ club you'll find you're going to have to work on your sprawl again, and your grips off the gi will be awful ~ but a week or two and you'll be on top of these little issues and find that an elbow grip, underhook are very powerful new 'grips' for you and a lot of guys will wish to avoid any clinch.

From my personal experience you should train with the Gi and then go Nogi if you want to. Its a lot easier to adapt to Nogi having trained Gi than vice versa. I trained Nogi for about a year in MMA classes before going with the Gi, I wished I had started with the Gi sooner. For me, Gi and Nogi are comparable to skiing/ snowboarding. Gi is easier to get started and find your feet but harder to master whereas Nogi is much harder to start but easier to master.