G'wan Traffic Watch and An Garda!

doozerie

Thought I'd give a public cheer for the gardai. I posted on another thread a few weeks back about an incident where a motorist overtook a bunch of us at speed, very closely, and while blowing his horn. It seemed deliberately aggressive and his subsequent reaction when I asked him if he knew how close he'd come to running us over was similarly aggressive (there was even mention of "road tax!", etc.) and seemed to confirm that he had targeted us. I phoned Traffic Watch (tel: 1890 205805) there and then. The garda on the line offered to send a car round but the motorist scarpered while I was on the phone, so having given the relevant details about location, license plate, etc., I headed off.

I received some follow-up calls since, which was promising, and I'd been planning to drop in to my local garda station to make a statement. I was told that if anyone else in the group was willing to make a statement too then this would help, I'd just need to give their name and phone number when making my statement and a garda would contact them if necessary. As ever, the more witnesses the better. For info too, I phoned my local garda station to ask whether I should make an appointment to make my statement but was told that the best thing is just to ring before dropping in to ensure that there were at least 2 gardai at the desk so that the desk can still be manned while one garda is off taking my statement.

Two nights back there were 3 missed calls on my mobile but no voicemails and the calling number was marked as private. Last night I received another call from a private number, it was a garda from the station most local to the incident. During the conversation he mentioned the prospect of a court case and I told him that I didn't think that would serve any purpose. My hope was that the driver would get a shock from being approached by a garda and that this would make him think twice next time he considered taking out his frustrations on other road users. In light of that I was told that my making a statement wouldn't be necessary (which is actually specifically mentioned in the Traffic Watch page above) and that the garda would try to contact the driver and would let me know how it worked out.

I must admit that I was sceptical, but an hour later I received another call from the garda saying that he'd spoken to the driver over the phone. The driver was apparently a bit shocked to receive the call, and expressed regret over the incident - he questioned whether he'd actually passed very close to us (no surprise that he'd try to play down the severity of his actions) but he admitted that he'd been aggressive in the "conversation" with us afterwards. He even apologised to the garda. What's more, it was his father who answered the phone initially and according to the garda the father was miffed that his son had done something that warranted gardai involvement.

So the end result is that the driver had the unenviable shock of a garda contacting him to call him to account for his actions, he was given a caution, and to top it all this played out in the embarrasing glare of his family. I couldn't ask for more, if that doesn't live long in the driver's memory and influence his future behaviour on the roads for the better then I don't know what will. I've not alway been happy with the outcome of dealing with the gardai in the past (in relation to taking seriously an incident between a cyclist and a motorist) but this occasion counts as a complete and utter success, so well done to the gardai involved and particularly the garda last night whose persistence led to this all being wrapped up quickly, neatly, and painlessly.

Just to add, while I'd use the Traffic Watch number again in the future if I needed to, I gather that it can be useful to directly contact the garda station local to the incident instead if you happen to have their phone number. That might result in a garda car being sent to the scene more quickly. Something to consider though is that calls to Traffic Watch are logged, and an incident number generated, and I'm not sure if that happens automatically if you just ring a garda station directly.

buffalo

All's well... ish. I do wonder whether this goes on the record, so that if he's complained about again, the second complaint is dealt with more severely. That's the sort of system I'd love.

doozerie wrote: »

What's more, it was his father who answered the phone initially and according to the garda the father was miffed that his son had done something that warranted gardai involvement.

Reminded me of this story, and I know how much you love Donald Clarke:

Somebody called Oliver Eric Rawlings tweeted that Mary was a “a filthy old slut” and then went on to make remarks about her body that we won’t repeat. ... An excellent individual named John Wilson did some research and tweeted the following message: “Mary, If you would like to send a copy @Rawlings153′;s tweet to his mother, Joanne. I’d be happy to give you the postal address.” ... Rawlings quickly issued an apology and subsequently locked his Twitter account. Let’s savour this for a moment. A grown man (he’s 20, apparently) was forced to apologise after somebody threatened to tell his mum on him.

:pac: http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/screenwriter/2013/07/29/twitter-thug-gets-a-delightful-comeuppance/

t'bear

I had to call traffic watch a few weeks back about a horse wandering about the road, within 15 mins I had a call back from them saying they had multiple reports and that the Garda were enroute to address the danger. Simple as it is, I appreciated the callback. Service should be used more often, number is in my phone for any future needs.

Jawgap

buffalo wrote: »

All's well... ish. I do wonder whether this goes on the record, so that if he's complained about again, the second complaint is dealt with more severely. That's the sort of system I'd love.

It mightn't be officially recorded but if it goes through his local station they'll know informally.

I reported someone a few years ago to Balbriggan Gardai, and the response was excellent. The local Traffic Corps paid him a visit in the jeep - I like to think of him getting the shock of his life when they pulled in.

On another occasion a motorist nearly wiped me out at Christchurch - witnessed by a motorbike cop who chased after her and pulled her. Ended up in court, prosecuting her for careless driving.

dedocdude

some good results there - gardai being spoken about in a positive light too - idiot motorists get a bit of a jolt and hopefully cop the f**k on - played out well I reckons - well done callers.

Lepidoptera

Glad to hear there was some positive resolution on the matter, and hopefully he'll be more careful and considerate in the future. Also thank you for posting how you dealt with the issue. I'm just venturing out on the roads and still very nervous about interactions with cars, especially some of the more aggressive/oblivious drivers. I didn't know about Traffic Watch, but I've got that number in my phone now.

MB Lacey

Well done. I've put that number in my phone now too.

Wishbone Ash

doozerie wrote: »

I received another call from the garda saying that he'd spoken to the driver over the phone

A house call, in full view of neighbours, like in the old days, would have been even more effective!

Harrybelafonte

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

A house call, in full view of neighbours, like in the old days, would have been even more effective!

Not really, it just meant the neighbours left me to my own devices for a long, long time... Which was nice.

Wicklowrider

I've posted before about traffic watch and the gardai and how positive my experience was. Since then I had a nasty incident involving very threatening behaviour. When I ph'd traffic watch they confirmed that the motorist was already facing charges over a similar incident involving a motor cyclist and that yet another incident was being investigated. I gave a statement to the local station and the gardai have pursued it.If you don't report the SERIOUS incidents you don't know if the aggressor will go on to harm someone else.
As word spreads about convictions arising from reports to traffic watch I would expect behaviour to improve.

mikeoneill893

post this over in the motors forum for the crack!:pac:

on_the_nickel

So, OP, did you actually give a statement?

Some woman in a jeep overtook and turned left into a side road on me this morning (on a blind corner). Literally inches from taking me out. I chased her, out of pure rage as I was never catching her, and luckily she did a u-turn down the road (must have been lost). I stopped her, she was surprised to see me and essentially she said she "didn't see me" and drove off.

I've never rang TrafficWatch before, never even considered it tbh, but this infuriated me further. So I rang them, and this afternoon Kinsale garda station rang me. I told them I wasn't interested in charges or court, I just wanted this woman to know how close she'd come to killing me as she was totally oblivious and didn't give a sh!t.

The guard said there was no number on file for her, she wasn't in their area and "the days of Guards calling to doors are long over" and basically I'd have to give a statement if they wanted me to talk to her, and by giving a statement I'd essentially be starting the ball rolling for them to decide if they would prosecute. I feel that's a waste of time as it's he said/she said, and I've no interest in going to court over it.

From what you say OP, it seems the guards followed up without a statement, is that correct?

RainyDay

on_the_nickel wrote: »

The guard said there was no number on file for her, she wasn't in their area and "the days of Guards calling to doors are long over" and basically I'd have to give a statement if they wanted me to talk to her, and by giving a statement I'd essentially be starting the ball rolling for them to decide if they would prosecute. I feel that's a waste of time as it's he said/she said, and I've no interest in going to court over it.

Every court case in the world is 'he said/she said'.

In fairness to the Gardai, it's not unreasonable of them to expect someone to go to the bother of making a statement.

on_the_nickel

RainyDay wrote: »

Every court case in the world is 'he said/she said'.

Not every case has no witnesses.

RainyDay wrote: »

In fairness to the Gardai, it's not unreasonable of them to expect someone to go to the bother of making a statement.

Not what I'm saying - I'm asking the OP if a statement was required in his case.

unichall

With regards statements, a statement is only necessary if a case is to proceed to court, without an official witness (the statement maker) the garda has no case and if a case isn't going to court a statement does not have any relevance

An informal way of looking at whether a statement is taken or not is if a person takes the time to report the incident and then once the blood has cooled down they follow it up by making a statement it gives a garda the idea of how serious the person takes the incident in question. By saying that you have no interest in charges or going to court suggests to the garda that you are just angry at the time and if you have no interest or intention of following it up why should they?

To answer your question though, they don't need a statement to call to the address where the car is registered and speak to the driver, I suppose where the problem arises is if the person says they didn't do it or they deny any knowledge, what does the garda so there? He has no comeback because he has to be impartial and if it becomes a case of he said against you said then the garda lets a judge decide and like I stated without a statement that will 100% never happen.

As a matter of interest why not proceed with a statement and prosecution in this case?

Iwannahurl

TTBOMK the 'system' has been changed.

It used to be the case, in my experience, that you could report a dangerous driving incident and, if you were lucky, a diligent Garda would follow up with the motorist in question. For example, one one occasion around a year ago when an SUV driver tried (twice) to ram me in a cycle lane as I did the school run with my two kids on board, I rang AGS with the vehicle details and they followed up with a phone call to the driver. He was defensive but ultimately apologetic, and in my view the value of this was that he might think twice again about abusing cyclists and cycle facilities.

However, more recently I have reported dangerous driving and I was told that things are no longer done this way. To get anything at all done now you have to make a formal statement in person to AGS, and you must be willing to follow it up in court if necessary.

That's what I have been told anyway, fwiw. This is a bit discouraging, and there is no possible way that I can follow up on the incidents of illegal and/or dangerous driving I see literally every day, such as driving on footpaths and breaking red lights. And you can forget about speeding; how is it possible to make any kind of plausible allegation in that regard?

enas

Iwannahurl wrote: »

To get anything at all done now you have to make a formal statement in person to AGS, and you must be willing to follow it up in court if necessary.

In my opinion you shouldn't feel discouraged. I don't anyway. I think it's understandable that they can't treat all claims in a too casual way.

It might sound intimidating, but at the end of the day, it's only a bit of extra paperwork (giving a statement doesn't have to be complicated, you just say your story in the simplest and most honest way, the garda repeats it and you sign it -- if all it takes is 30 seconds to tell your story, then so be it). Mostly, it means taking the time to do that (ideally, 20 minutes off your lunch break). You shouldn't feel you're wasting guards or courts time. What gardaí do with your statement is there job not yours. If there's not must in it, it probably won't go to court, but at least, a phone call will be made with the other party, which is probably what you would be looking for most of the times.

Hmmzis

Oh c'mon, making a statement is far from intimidating. Did it once and would do it again if required. The guard just writes down what you are saying and then might ask a question or two to clarify some points. Very simple and can be done at pretty much any time that is convenient.

on_the_nickel

Thanks for that, and I broadly agree with your sentiments.

unichall wrote: »

By saying that you have no interest in charges or going to court suggests to the garda that you are just angry at the time and if you have no interest or intention of following it up why should they?

I took a pause before ringing. My aim when ringing was to ensure this geebag lady didn't just tear off thinking she'd done nothing wrong - ideally, I wanted the guards to contact her and give her a bit of a reality check so that she might drive with more care and consideration in future.

It was this thread I think, that led me to believe this was a possibility. I take your point though.

unichall wrote: »

As a matter of interest why not proceed with a statement and prosecution in this case?

I'm considering it, but as stated above, my aim was not to "press charges" or anything. She's an idiot, but it was obvious she did not see me, so she's not malicious. If she were, I'd already have given a statement.

I thought it was possible for the Garda to contact her and give her a bollocking, hence my question to the OP. If a statement is required for them to contact her, which is totally understandable, then I don't think that the work/time involved in the Gardai having to prepare a file for the DPP, go to court etc is commensurate with "crime", or the punishment (a wrist-slap), in this case.

unichall

on_the_nickel wrote: »

Thanks for that, and I broadly agree with your sentiments.



I took a pause before ringing. My aim when ringing was to ensure this geebag lady didn't just tear off thinking she'd done nothing wrong - ideally, I wanted the guards to contact her and give her a bit of a reality check so that she might drive with more care and consideration in future.

It was this thread I think, that led me to believe this was a possibility. I take your point though.


I'm considering it, but as stated above, my aim was not to "press charges" or anything. She's an idiot, but it was obvious she did not see me, so she's not malicious. If she were, I'd already have given a statement.

I thought it was possible for the Garda to contact her and give her a bollocking, hence my question to the OP. If a statement is required for them to contact her, which is totally understandable, then I don't think that the work/time involved in the Gardai having to prepare a file for the DPP, go to court etc is commensurate with "crime", or the punishment (a wrist-slap), in this case.

A prosecution doesn't always have to end up in court, a prosecution for driving without due care and attention is administered via the fixed charge penalty system so if the incident is deemed minor enough your statement and a short report from the garda is enough so don't let it put you off.

Also like I said its not that the garda cant call to the other parties registered address, some will, some won't without a statement, it depends on the individual but if it requires a bit of a drive, I.e in this case the car is not registered locally, you would want to make sure its not a wasted journey and have at the very least a statement to back up the allegations you are putting to another person. I would imagine if a phone number was on record the matter would have been dealt with initially in that manner.

Have a think about it and see how you feel and go from there.

on_the_nickel

unichall wrote: »

A prosecution doesn't always have to end up in court, a prosecution for driving without due care and attention is administered via the fixed charge penalty system so if the incident is deemed minor enough your statement and a short report from the garda is enough so don't let it put you off.

Also like I said its not that the garda cant call to the other parties registered address, some will, some won't without a statement, it depends on the individual but if it requires a bit of a drive, I.e in this case the car is not registered locally, you would want to make sure its not a wasted journey and have at the very least a statement to back up the allegations you are putting to another person. I would imagine if a phone number was on record the matter would have been dealt with initially in that manner.

Have a think about it and see how you feel and go from there.

Thanks for the info, very useful and makes sense.

The Garda is calling me back tomorrow as I asked for some time to think it over. Will sleep on it.

Spook_ie

I doubt that the Garda would issue an FPN after the fact, I would say if you wish to complain and make a statement the very least you should be willing to do is follow through with the court route if the Garda decide to press charges, otherwise you are basiclly (as on here ) venting and that is a waste of Garda time

monument

Spook_ie wrote: »

I doubt that the Garda would issue an FPN after the fact, I would say if you wish to complain and make a statement the very least you should be willing to do is follow through with the court route if the Garda decide to press charges, otherwise you are basiclly (as on here ) venting and that is a waste of Garda time

Adding fix charge notices "after the fact" happens all the time, it will of course still be open to the driver to contest it in court.

For lesser offenses, there's also some merit in reporting without wanting it to go to court and asking the garda to warn the motorist if they view that as possable. Warnings are a generally effective part of policing and are the opposite of a waste of time.

As unichall says, a statement isn't needed for then to contact somebody, but it'll depend on the garda and the event.

Spook_ie

monument wrote: »

Adding fix charge notices "after the fact" happens all the time, it will of course still be open to the driver to contest it in court.

For lesser offenses, there's also some merit in reporting without wanting it to go to court and asking the garda to warn the motorist if they view that as possable. Warnings are a generally effective part of policing and are the opposite of a waste of time.

As unichall says, a statement isn't needed for then to contact somebody, but it'll depend on the garda and the event.

Issuing FCNs on the say so of a member of the public, is that what you're saying?

Just let me have your personal details and I'll arrange some for your reckless cycling antics ******, that's the level of justice you seem to be extolling, FCNs on hear say

buffalo

enas wrote: »

In my opinion you shouldn't feel discouraged. I don't anyway. I think it's understandable that they can't treat all claims in a too casual way.

I feel highly discouraged. I've report five cases over the last five years(ish), and none of those had a satisfactory outcome. One of those was "his word vs my word", and I find it acceptable that na Gardaí can't do much without any objective witnesses (though I was never informed what his version of events was), and another I got the registration wrong, so am mostly to blame (though given it happened in front of a shopping centre, there must've been some quality of CCTV footage available).

The other three cases: one "fell between the cracks" to quote the Garda who rang me to apologise. The last two, I haven't heard a peep about, though one included a threat of physical assault (and I reported it directly to the local station), and the other I went to the trouble of tracking down a witness, and I'm surprised there's been no contact because TW are usually diligent in following up. I was also involved in an accident in April that resulted in an ambo to A&E, and it appears the Garda on the scene wasn't bothered to take the details of both drivers involved, only the one that suffered material damage. Never mind my personal injury.

With all that in mind, and a few other more minor incidents, the majority of Gardaí I've encountered couldn't give a toss about cyclists, and I don't know how bothered I'd be about reporting any future bad behaviour.

So if your case has a Garda willing to take a statement and pursue matters further, seize it with both hands.

enas

Spook_ie wrote: »

that's the level of justice you seem to be extolling, FCNs on hear say

What are you on? monument is merely telling you how things actually work, you might like it or not, but surely he is not to blame (and to be honest your ad hominem threats sound rather dodgy). And I didn't see justice on hearsay being mentioned by anyone. Surely FCN are only issued when the Garda deems it appropriate.

Chips Lovell

Spook banned.

Let's move on.

enas

buffalo wrote: »

I feel highly discouraged.

I see where you're coming from, and understand your frustration. It highly depends on the garda, so it's a bit of a lottery indeed. I've seen many different types, from the indifferent, to the one with a clear anti-cyclist bias (were you cycling in the cycle lane? were you far enough to the left? etc.), to the very sympathetic one (generally one who patrols on a bicycle too).

There is one thing to understand though, is that it's the right of any member of the public to make a statement, and it's the duty of any garda to investigate any claim made. So depending on how strongly you feel regarding a particular case, you shouldn't hesitate to insist as much as you think you should. At the very least, you should always note the name and contact number of the garda who's dealing with your case, and never hesitate to contact his superintendent if you feel things don't evolve to your satisfaction.

buffalo

enas wrote: »

I see where you're coming from, and understand your frustration. It highly depends on the garda, so it's a bit of a lottery indeed. I've seen many different types, from the indifferent, to the one with a clear anti-cyclist bias (were you cycling in the cycle lane? were you far enough to the left? etc.), to the very sympathetic one (generally one who patrols on a bicycle too).

There is one thing to understand though, is that it's the right of any member of the public to make a statement, and it's the duty of any garda to investigate any claim made. So depending on how strongly you feel regarding a particular case, you shouldn't hesitate to insist as much as you think you should. At the very least, you should always note the name and contact number of the garda who's dealing with your case, and never hesitate to contact his superintendent if you feel things don't evolve to your satisfaction.

This is something I need to get in the habit of, though it doesn't apply to TW. It irritates me that I have to kick up a fuss to get someone to just do their job, though I appreciate they are over-worked at present.

RainyDay

I don't see anything unreasonable with a Garda requiring a statement to progress the matter. Without a statement, it's just too easy for me to make up anything about anyone that I have a gripe with, and have the Gardai calling to his/her door. At least with a statement, the complainant has to take the matter seriously, and can (I think) be prosecuted if the statement is shown to be false.

doozerie

@on_the_nickel, Bit late to be of use to you now, but no I didn't make a statement re my incident. The garda was happy, and relieved it seemed like, to proceed without a statement. I reported another similar incident via TrafficWatch since then and again in that case the garda that rang me said he'd contact the driver without my having to make a statement (though the garda never contacted me after that so I don't know whether he really did contact the driver).

As to the general suggestion that a statement is a reasonable requirement, while I agree that making a statement isn't a big hassle in itself (depending on where you are told you should make the statement), for me a statement represents the first step in something going to court. Unless an incident was very severe I wouldn't want a costly (for the taxpayer), time consuming (for everyone, including me as a witness), and stressful (for everyone) court case to be undertaken to deal with it. So my preference is almost always that the other party be contacted by a garda simply as a reminder to them that they can be held accountable - I'm convinced that this will influence the attitude and behaviour of most people for the better, whereas for me a court case is for punishment rather than education as such.

If I thought that everything I reported via TrafficWatch might end up in court then I'd be far less inclined to report anything to it other than very serious incidents, and that's not a good thing in my view. For me, one of the real benefits of TrafficWatch is in encouraging people to report "lesser" incidents that they might otherwise ignore for fear of ending up involved in the hassle of a court case. And in fact, the following snippet from An Garda's Traffic Watch page seems to clearly state that the need for statements is reserved only for cases where it is to be pursued in court:

If the complainant wishes to go to Court, a written statement is taken, and if not and an offence has been disclosed, arrangements are made to have the matter dealt with by way of caution, advice or guidance.

So it all depends on the garda you end up dealing with I guess. I was fortunate in encountering a very conscientious garda, clearly there exist gardai that would rather not be conscientious and will spout any nonsense in the hope of fobbing people off when they make a complaint.

on_the_nickel

@doozerie Thanks for the reply, I was sure I'd read a statement wasn't required for the Gardai to contact drivers, just wanted to make sure.

Totally agree with your 2nd paragraph, I simply wanted the driver to know that I felt so strongly about what happened that I rang the Gardai, not for my call to instigate formal proceedings.

FWIW, the Garda told me my call would be logged in the driver's record and would be visible to anyone checking the Garda database in future.