Worried about father's health due to the banks

LegacyUser

As the title says, my father (and mother) are under a serious amount of stress lately. Obviously half the country are too and I completely understand this. I have heard of countless number of suicides occurring due to the same situation so I really hope no one takes offence to this post as I am only posting about my own family's situation - and I completely respect everyone else's situation.

My dad has suffered with a long term illness for quite some time now. It isn't life threatening however, he needs to avoid alcohol and keep his stress levels down otherwise he may find himself in hospital. He is in and out of hospital approximately 3/4 times a year. In his situation, his illness flares up mainly due to stress.

We live in a very large house, a lot larger than the average, hence the mortgage is a lot higher than most. At this point I think I should make it clear that I do not fully understand the ins and outs of how the banks operate. I'm a normal 20 year old college student that goes about my own business day to day... in the full of my health, no worries, no nothing. In total contrast to my father who worries about keeping the family business afloat, paying the mortgage and providing for his children.

In relation to college, my parent's wouldn't be able to be means tested as they earn too much, yet 100% of those earnings go towards paying the mortgage leaving very little money for food etc. and definitely not for college! However, I took out a loan to pay for college and I work part-time so I pay for my own food etc. - which is rightly so as I am 20 years of age - I'll never understand why students receive grants, if I can take out a loan and pay it off gradually with a part-time job then why can't everyone else? Instead they spend it on alcohol and student nights out, something which I can't even do.. (sorry I've gone off the point).

My point in all of that was - I am trying to be completely independent from my family so as my father won't have to worry about providing for me - I can provide for myself. I just wish there was something I could do to help him. I have never seen him so stressed and his health is slowly deteriorating and I really do fear for his well being, so much so that I find myself shedding a random tear whilst in traffic, at night time etc. afraid that he may have a heart attack - and all because of the banks.

At the moment I feel like I am watching my own father slowly lose all joy which he once had in his life. I find it so difficult and heartbreaking that all I can do is sit back and watch.

Is there anything I can do? Is there anyone else my age who may be in a similar situation? I don't know what I am looking for really, I guess I just needed someone (the kind people of the personal issues forum in this case) to talk to.

Thanks for listening.

PirateShampoo

Sounds like they need to down size, which is more important keeping up the image or your parents health?

TheminxIRL

Sorry but agree with Pirate the answer seems to be downsize to a normal sized house and cut the payments size.

I know its hard to sell in this climate but it would be worth looking at.

Your comments about students having to rely on a student grant has grated on me though, my son is about to start his third year of a four year course and relies on this grant.

He did try get a loan but because he didnt have a guarantor to back him as I am on a now low paid job due to the recessions and losing my other job I didnt qualify.

Please dont judge others its horrible and very ill informed

LegacyUser

PirateShampoo wrote: »

which is more important keeping up the image or your parents health?

I don't think they are worried about their "image".

It's not easy for anyone to move out of their "home", whether it be a small or large house, a home is a home.

They worked extremely hard for their "home", they would be gutted to see it go. That really isn't my business though, nor the advice I was looking for. I posted because I'm worried about my dad's health.

LegacyUser

TheminxIRL wrote: »

Your comments about students having to rely on a student grant has grated on me though, my son is about to start his third year of a four year course and relies on this grant.

He did try get a loan but because he didnt have a guarantor to back him as I am on a now low paid job due to the recessions and losing my other job I didnt qualify.

Please dont judge others its horrible and very ill informed

Apologies for offending you. Wasn't my intention. Just from my experience I have seen students p*ss away their grant while I struggle to pay off my college loan. The system needs to change. I don't want to go off topic though so once again apologies for any offence caused.

emmabrighton

Hi going_anon,

I think you are quite admirable paying your own way through college so as to relieve the pressure your parents are under.

I know that you are 20 but you are also in full time education and you are their child. I doubt they expect you to come up with solutions for their financial situation.

How about just telling your dad that you are grateful that he has provided for you to date, and that you respect him and admire him and that you are grateful for the work ethic that he has instilled in you. Working to pay for college? Sounds like you have a good work ethic alright.

My dad provided for us and worked very hard and due to work stresses as well as an unhealthy lifestyle and coupled with a heart condition, he died when I was 14. I always regretted not being able to live up to his impossibly high standards - I am just an average middle income office worker. But being a parent myself now, I would hate to think that my son would worry about my finances. That's my job, I'm the parent. In fairness though, he is only 1 so he doesn't worry about much.

In summary, tell him how much you love him and that you want to make sure that he will still be around to play with his grand kids ;o)

Starokan

Hi,

Fair play on putting yourself through college, very admirable and very helpful for your family in current times.

I dont think there is a lot you can do here, from running the family business and dealing with the accountants etc your dad will be well aware of all his options in terms of the business, home etc.

It may be that the house is in negative equity , perhaps thats why they are not selling or it may be that he sees a way out even though it might take a couple of years.

I think you should talk to him if he would be approachable on it, it might alleviate some of your fears and it may boost him to know how much you care

freshpopcorn

Ye are basically living beyond ye're means and need to move to a small 2/3 bed house in a different area.
By the sounds of things ye are living at home at the moment. Do you pay rent or a share of the ESB/Heating bills? A lot of people who get college grants have to move to out of home as well because they can't travel to college everyday because its to far away. so they need there grant to pay for there accommodation/bills.
Also a lot of people who get student loans need to get there parents to sign the loan as well. Most peoples parents who qualify for grants would not be able qualify for a student loan. The grant is there is encourage people into third level education hoping that they will finish there course and get a job and pay back the state through there government.

ivytwine

OP I just had to post. I know this isn't After Hours and you're very upset right now but please don't judge all students by what you think you saw in college.

Firstly I assume you've heard of SUSI and all that went with that. Please don't assume life is easy for others because they're getting 'free money'.

I got the full grant as my family are not well off. I also worked during college. I'm not going to pretend I stayed in and lived a monastic life but yes, I went out and enjoyed myself. I did not piss away the government's money however and I think you need an attitude adjustment.

A total attitude adjustment in fact. You are worried about your father's health because of the banks.

What is more important? His health or money?

Things are just that, things. Houses are just houses. Cars are just cars.

Before you roll your eyes and think, oh this poster is poor, she hasn't a clue, well, let me tell you this. My grandparents were wealthy. Quite wealthy in fact. Without going into detail my grandmother was blinded by glamour and status and lost almost all of her money. She had a big house she could hardly afford to run and emphysema. What was better for her, money or health?

It is all up to your parents of course, whether they want to downsize or not. But this they will probably have to do. Be there for them. This is largely out of your control but you must realise that letting go of some of the things you once took for granted is probably necessary. I won't say money isn't important; it is. But it's not the most important thing. And status? To a secure person, status is nothing.

ted1

PirateShampoo wrote: »

Sounds like they need to down size, which is more important keeping up the image or your parents health?

Down sizing doesn't work as they will still owe on a large mortgage. Selling the house won't cover the mortgage

freshpopcorn

ted1 wrote: »

Down sizing doesn't work as they will still owe on a large mortgage. Selling the house won't cover the mortgage

So are you saying they should stay in the big house they can't afford to pay the mortgage off on?

By downsizing they would have a chance of easing the pressure.Another option could be they could try to rent out the large house they can't afford and rent a small 2/3 bed bungalow for themselves.

December2012

Can they take in students themselves?

banquo

Trouble with moving house is, I imagine, negative equity. They wouldn't necessarily be any better off financially, and at the end just have an inferior house with similar debt. At least if they keep the good house, they'll have something at the end of it all.

ted1

freshpopcorn wrote: »

So are you saying they should stay in the big house they can't afford to pay the mortgage off on?

By downsizing they would have a chance of easing the pressure.Another option could be they could try to rent out the large house they can't afford and rent a small 2/3 bed bungalow for themselves.

If you buy for 100, sell for 50 you pay back 50 but still owe 50. Now you have to buy somewhere else, buy estate agent fees, solicterr fees, moving costs etc. they will be worse off as three will cost more than 50

ted1

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Another option could be they could try to rent out the large house they can't afford and rent a small 2/3 bed bungalow for themselves.

With the NPPR, property tax, tax on rental income, extra PRSI and rent they will have to pay. They would not be better off .

mikemac1

It's a large house. Is there employment/college and good public transport?

Take in some lodgers and that will make a dent in the mortgage and bills.

freshpopcorn

ted1 wrote: »

If you buy for 100, sell for 50 you pay back 50 but still owe 50. Now you have to buy somewhere else, buy estate agent fees, solicterr fees, moving costs etc. they will be worse off as three will cost more than 50

ted1 wrote: »

With the NPPR, property tax, tax on rental income, extra PRSI and rent they will have to pay. They would not be better off .

Well what would you suggest they do?

If it is such a problem to the OP they need to do something to try and improve there money situation. But they would also have to pay tax on this income and maybe it would be very hard for them to live with anyone due to the fathers poor health.

Big Bag of Chips

OP, I don't mean to patronise you, but are you sure about your family's financial situation? I know you are 20, and in college but you sound quite naive. I don't doubt your family is struggling, as you said yourself, most families are, but do you know to what extent? Do you know if your parents have been to the bank to negotiate anything with them? Have your parents spoken to you about it, or are you assuming a lot of this?

You say in your OP, that you have taken out a student loan because you want to be completely independent, and not be a burden on your family. And ask for advice on what you can do. I take it you live at home during college term. Do you pay rent? Do you contribute to bills? Do you buy your own groceries/laundry stuff etc?
All the things you'd have to do and buy if you were living independently, renting student accomodation somewhere?

It's admirable that you want to help. If you truly mean it, then you need to sit down with your parents and work out what you can contribute. Ask them have they negotiated anything with the banks etc..

But don't be surprised if they tell you nothing. Most parents prefer to keep their money matters/troubles away from their kids. They don't see it as the kids' (regardless of age!) responsibility to know about it, or sort it out.

mrsdewinter

OP, you sound like a thoughful, hardworking young person that any parent woul be proud of. But the truth is, none of us know what your father is going through. All you can do is let him know that you are willing and able to help out in any way you can - though it sounds like you are doing everything to pull your weight while working towards a secure future for yourself.
Please talk to him.

LegacyUser

ivytwine wrote: »

OP I just had to post. I know this isn't After Hours and you're very upset right now but please don't judge all students by what you think you saw in college.

Firstly I assume you've heard of SUSI and all that went with that. Please don't assume life is easy for others because they're getting 'free money'.

I got the full grant as my family are not well off. I also worked during college. I'm not going to pretend I stayed in and lived a monastic life but yes, I went out and enjoyed myself. I did not piss away the government's money however and I think you need an attitude adjustment.

A total attitude adjustment in fact. You are worried about your father's health because of the banks.

What is more important? His health or money?

Things are just that, things. Houses are just houses. Cars are just cars.

Before you roll your eyes and think, oh this poster is poor, she hasn't a clue, well, let me tell you this. My grandparents were wealthy. Quite wealthy in fact. Without going into detail my grandmother was blinded by glamour and status and lost almost all of her money. She had a big house she could hardly afford to run and emphysema. What was better for her, money or health?

It is all up to your parents of course, whether they want to downsize or not. But this they will probably have to do. Be there for them. This is largely out of your control but you must realise that letting go of some of the things you once took for granted is probably necessary. I won't say money isn't important; it is. But it's not the most important thing. And status? To a secure person, status is nothing.

Your post is insulting on so many levels.

I never mentioned status. I never mentioned taking things for granted. And I certainly would not roll my eyes and think "oh this poster is poor". - you are making assumptions.

Re: the grant. Fair enough if you are an exception but the majority of students do p*ss away their grant. If they can afford to go out Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday then they can afford to pay fees. There were talks of students having to pay their grants back when they enter full time employment in the future. I think that is an excellent idea. So no, I do not need an attitude adjustment. I merely disagree with you. I do however respect your opinion.

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

I don't doubt your family is struggling, as you said yourself, most families are, but do you know to what extent? Do you know if your parents have been to the bank to negotiate anything with them? Have your parents spoken to you about it, or are you assuming a lot of this?

You say in your OP, that you have taken out a student loan because you want to be completely independent, and not be a burden on your family. And ask for advice on what you can do. I take it you live at home during college term. Do you pay rent? Do you contribute to bills? Do you buy your own groceries/laundry stuff etc?
All the things you'd have to do and buy if you were living independently, renting student accomodation somewhere?

Thanks BigBagOfChips.

They are on interest only repayments. I buy all my own groceries and yes, I contribute to the upkeep of the house i.e rent etc.

I wouldn't know the full ins and outs no, and I have asked but as you said they don't like discussing it with me which is fair enough. I can tell by just looking at them and listening to them, my dad in particular, that they are non stop stressed out of their minds.

The discussion at the dinner table is the same thing every night. I was just wondering if this was normal today? Are all families having the same discussion every night? I can't exactly ask my friends as I wouldn't like anyone to know about my family's private business. My friends have never mentioned anything about how their family might be struggling etc., which makes me question is this normal?

XMASSmrstobe

Hi Op,

Cautious reply but I'd be and have been in a similar boat for the last few years and have watched friends loose family members. I'm posting below as you are unreg and I can't pm you.

To start with, I know that its uncomfortable, but others posting about downsizing may have a point but it may also not be a financial option for your family.

On a practical level: Does your dad have a support network of his own? Do his friends know of his worries?

I know you are posting about your dad, but do your friends know your fears and responsibilities? I'm not going to talk about the grants thing because I know that for many people they are a lifeline...but for others the system doesn't work. The only thing I would add here though is that the students Union normally has some discretionary funding. Perhaps talk to them about your own situation. I did a few years ago as I knew my family was threading water and god forbid if I lost my earnings I'd push them over. That put a lot of fear and anxiety on me as I was terrified of becoming a burden. The union was great. Never used them in the end but they took my fear away - I knew I had people to turn to if the worst happened.


Can you talk to your dad about the financial situation, not as an advisor but, be honest, say your concerned about how stressed he is. Ask him how you can help. I used a book about a man who had lost his business in the downturn with a personal message on the cover-fold to start the conversation and break the ice. For me, I helped by distracting my parents every so often - going for a walk or other cheap/free 'family things'. Keeping the conversation open and honest has also cleared a lot of stress.

OP, I take it from what you are saying that your family is scraping by. Surviving but that the stress of managing assets and outgoings is constant. That's a battle so many families are facing at the minute. Know that you are doing the right thing by working and supporting yourself and getting through college. It's not easy but it can be done and just keep trying. Do remember that its important for yourself to stay healthy too.

LegacyUser

Essentially OP, there is little that you can do. An interest only mortgage is not intended for the family home. The idea is you buy in a rising market and sell at a profit, paying only the interest on the mortgage until you sell, when you are expected to pay it all off. Your parents clearly got very bad advise.

I got the grant in college. I had a medical card too. If you saw how I spent my money, you would probably not approve. The thing about the grant is, you get it if you genuinely meet the conditions, or if that is unlikely and you have good financial sense and an accountant. The wealthiest people I knew in college had grants and medical cards, because our parent's accountants knew all the tricks.

Don't judge people with grants. They either really deserve them, or their parents were smart enough to cut tgeir income at the right time. Your parents made a bad move with the interest only mortgage. Don't begrudge others fun and the road to minding their own finances becsuse your parents made mistakes and you only hear about financial stress at home.

You probably should pay rent, bills, for food, cleaning products, etc. It may make a dent in the day to day outgoings.

homemadecider

Your thread title is misleading. How is this the bank's fault? I think you need to open your eyes a bit; your parents are adults who bought a house they couldn't afford and now will need to downsize. I doubt there is much you can do to help if you are a student.

StillWaters

OP_Here wrote: »

Fair enough if you are an exception but the majority of students do p*ss away their grant. If they can afford to go out Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday then they can afford to pay fees. There were talks of students having to pay their grants back when they enter full time employment in the future. I think that is an excellent idea. So no, I do not need an attitude adjustment.

Just to clarify, the policy discussion has been about introducing fees, and student loans for same being paid back. Remember you too are benefitting from free fees. The grants, which are stringent would remain.

OP, do remember that if you did not qualify for the grant, things cannot be that bad, and many many grant recipients are from homes much financially worse off than yourself. It's quite comfy to be living at (a nice big) home, with a part time job for pocket money. It's not nice to judge from that position.

ivytwine

OP_Here wrote: »

Your post is insulting on so many levels.

I never mentioned status. I never mentioned taking things for granted. And I certainly would not roll my eyes and think "oh this poster is poor". - you are making assumptions.

Re: the grant. Fair enough if you are an exception but the majority of students do p*ss away their grant. If they can afford to go out Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday then they can afford to pay fees. There were talks of students having to pay their grants back when they enter full time employment in the future. I think that is an excellent idea. So no, I do not need an attitude adjustment. I merely disagree with you. I do however respect your opinion.

So what if they piss away their grant? I mean this genuinely, truly, what difference does it make to you if they do so? Do you think they're going to use their grant to help your family out of the situation its in? So I ask you again, if they do piss away the grant, what difference does it make to you?

I will say this again, in a different way. As another poster said you too are a beneficiary of free fees. Do you go out? Do you go shopping? (I probably spent more of my grant in Penneys and River Island than the pub to be quite honest) Do you go to Easons and buy books, or to Game and buy games? None of my business right. Well, then, it's none of your business what grant recipients do with their grant.

The UK do not have free third level education. True. Instead they have a world class free healthcare system. Schoolkids get free school supplies. Pregnant women get free dental care. What comes free in one country does not in another. In my opinion the introduction of free fees in Ireland was one of the best decisions ever taken by the state. Look at the standard of education of most 20-somethings in the UK and look at it here. It's normal to go to college here; it's not there. I hope that never changes for us.

Loan systems work, they work in Australia, I do agree. But there will always be the low income people who will qualify for grants, bursaries etc.

Your attitude is such that I really do think you don't know anyone who gets the grant. People get it because their family income is low. Having separated parents is also another reason people get the grant. Many colleges have access programmes to provide those from disadvantaged backgrounds with extra support. I was on one of those programmes.

On the news this morning it said that SUSI had crashed; up to 500 students did not get their grant at all last year. Where do you stand on those people? You genuinely seem to have a judgemental attitude to people from low-income backgrounds. Life has not by any means been easy for all of these people. You do know how cheap drink is? It's so cheap that it's possible to be a homeless alcoholic.

Students pump money back into the economy because they enjoy the money they have; why else do you think retailers give student discounts?!

As Still Waters said, you are judging from a position of comfort to be quite honest. Take a look at the number of threads here from recent grads who find themselves in dire straits. I feel that if you carry on with this attitude you're in for a right land when you graduate.

If your parents are not willing to negotiate with the banks, make cuts and changes, there is nothing you can do about it. Apart from being there for them, and listening and understanding, nothing, especially if they don't want you involved.

As for it being normal. Yes. There are households up and down Ireland going through what your family are, and worse.

I stick with my original statement. You need to adjust your outlook, and fast.

LegacyUser

ivytwine wrote: »

Do you go out? Do you go shopping? (I probably spent more of my grant in Penneys and River Island than the pub to be quite honest) Do you go to Easons and buy books, or to Game and buy games?

I stick with my original statement. You need to adjust your outlook, and fast.

I sense a massive chip on your shoulder, for whatever reason I do not know - perhaps you think because I live in a big house that I'm loaded? Clearly didn't read the OP properly. Perhaps you shouldn't judge.

You spent your grant money in Penneys and River Island? Exactly my point, you don't deserve it. One word for people like you but I wouldn't lower myself.

I stick to my opinion, students should be forced to pay their grant back when they enter full time employment. Perhaps then they will actually concentrate and learn something in college rather than spend the hard working people's money on getting p*ssed (shopping in your case).

This thread has gone way off topic so I would appreciate if a mod would close it now. I appreciate all the lovely comments from the other posters.

freshpopcorn

OP, You need to take a long hard look at your family to be honest.
My parent worked really hard seven days a week on a family farm and they weren't well off also my mother had to look after her elderly mother who lost her sight so I grew up in a poor household during the boom years.
At the moment my parents drive a car that is 14 years old because thats all they can afford. My dad does most of the maintenance on the car and it passes the NCT.
My mam would have being responsible for the food shopping and none of our family was never hungry but my mam never wasted money shopping for groceries/clothes. If you asked my mam before or to this day how much was an item was in the different shops/supermarkets shed know the price. She never walked into a shop and just thrown something into the trolley without trying to get the nest value.
My parents/family social lives growing up. My parents never really headed out to the pub at the weekend for a drink/meal. If our family was every invited to a wedding/birthday my parents would starting putting money aside every week to pay for the present to be sure they would be able to afford to give the people stuff. Did my family look respectable at the events they did. Everyone always had clean clothes and was well presented but my mam did her own hair/often wore the same dress to things. She very rarely got anything new and if she did she felt guilty over it. In my life I have never seen my parents going out for a meal by themselves to a restaurant. Does this make there marriage any less romantic not at all they really love one another. My dad always got my mam a card/chocolates for days when he could.
My family very rarely went for meals out the only one's I can think of are for our communions/confirmations. This was making my parents making sure they did the best for there kids.
When we went to school we always had a clean uniform the right books etc. So we're never left done by them at school. The odd time if the school dropped a trip on us very fast it might have being a struggle for them but they always tried there best so we could go.
Did I ever go on a family holiday as a kid to a foreign country no. It was always a day trip to the beach or a trip to my aunt who lived near Dublin and everyone was always happy.
So OP you need to look at your parents life styles.
Who does the shopping? Do they try and get the best value? What are they buying. Are they buying items such as alcohol that they don't need. Every is in titled to a threat every now and again but one you can afford. Does your mam buy clothes/make-up/get her hair done. This might need be an issue and if she does it has to be cut in the bud to ave money.
Eating out and socialising does your parents eat out often. Do they bring there lunches to work with them etc. If you cant afford to pay the mortgage then going out should be the last thing on there minds. There are loads of free stuff that they could do.
Also look at the modern technologies in your life. Do ye have a modern kitchen/tvs/computer equipment. All this stuff was expensive. Ye need to look at ye're ESB bill. Do ye leave things on standby/lights on in rooms when there not being used. I was always brought up if you want to use the kettle/toaster then fine but plug it out when you were done the same went for the TV/lights in rooms. In my house going up the only electrical appliance left plugged in was the fridge because it had to be. Also money was never wasted on heating. Doe ye always turn on the heat when there's a little chill. Well first of all put on a another jumper first. Look at your parents cars. Do they have one or two? If two do they need them both? How knew are they. Could they down grade them? To ;ow litre engine cars? Do they drive all the time maybe they could get a bus/walk. Do they go on journey they don't have to wasting petrol. It costs a lot to run a car.
So OP. I would recommend you look at ye're life style in great detail nearly like I pointed out. Look at what ye own and spend as a family. And compare it to a family who are poor and see what extra that ye have and see what ye could do without!

LegacyUser

freshpopcorn wrote: »

So OP. I would recommend you look at ye're life style in great detail nearly like I pointed out. Look at what ye own and spend as a family. And compare it to a family who are poor and see what extra that ye have and see what ye could do without!

Excellent post. Very constructive unlike the previous one as you are actually offering advice. I will note and suggest all of these ideas to my parents and encourage them to make cutbacks, in whatever way possible. Thanks again freshpopcorn.

ivytwine

OP_Here wrote: »

I sense a massive chip on your shoulder, for whatever reason I do not know - perhaps you think because I live in a big house that I'm loaded? Clearly didn't read the OP properly. Perhaps you shouldn't judge.

You spent your grant money in Penneys and River Island? Exactly my point, you don't deserve it. One word for people like you but I wouldn't lower myself.

I stick to my opinion, students should be forced to pay their grant back when they enter full time employment. Perhaps then they will actually concentrate and learn something in college rather than spend the hard working people's money on getting p*ssed (shopping in your case).

This thread has gone way off topic so I would appreciate if a mod would close it now. I appreciate all the lovely comments from the other posters.

I give up op. Perhaps when you have moved out of home and have had some experience of life you will learn something about not judging people on how they spend their money.

You still don't get that you too are getting a boon from the taxpayer by getting your fees paid. If you feel so strongly about it donate something to your college once you get your career established- something I intend on doing actually.

The hardworking comment is a high insult to me. I worked during college as stated earlier. I lived out of home and did not rely on my parents. Both my parents worked in low-paying jobs, by the way. People cannot help the circumstances they are born in and maybe you should realise this before you jump on your high horse and judge others.

This is all off-topic but it's very hard to feel any sympathy for someone with your attitude. Blame the banks all you want, but they're not charities.

I really think you're in for an almighty land OP.

Big Bag of Chips

OP - when you post on a public forum asking for advice and opinion you have to be prepared to hear things you don't like. The charter asks that all posters post in a mature and civil fashion. It is not up to you to decide how students should spend their grant, (and students do need clothes!)

Anyway, as you have said yourself the thread is veering off topic, and as per your request we will close it now.