Pope Francis: "Who am I to judge gay people?"

Amirani

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23489702


I'm no fan of the Catholic church or any of the popes that represent it. This guy seems to be taking some semblance of a progressive attitude though.

I still fail to see why women or homosexuals would want to be involved in such an organisation and I don't think this should or will change that. However, perhaps people with entrenched catholic beliefs will be slightly more tolerant for homosexuals if their leader is coming out with this sort of rhetoric.

Is this softening of the position of the Catholic church genuine or an attempt to slow the decline of their influence on the increasingly rationally-minded developed World?

Corkfeen

He condemned lobbying for equal rights(plus the act) , it's fairly minor progress overall and doesn't seem like much of a shift.

endacl

"Speaking to reporters on a flight back from Brazil, he reaffirmed the Roman Catholic Church's position that homosexual acts were sinful, but homosexual orientation was not."

How is that new? Its coming from a fluffier pope, but its the same message.

Amirani

endacl wrote: »

"Speaking to reporters on a flight back from Brazil, he reaffirmed the Roman Catholic Church's position that homosexual acts were sinful, but homosexual orientation was not."

How is that new? Its coming from a fluffier pope, but its the same message.

Well extra-marital sex is also sinful...

endacl

Only if you accept the concept of 'sin'!

seamus

endacl wrote: »

"Speaking to reporters on a flight back from Brazil, he reaffirmed the Roman Catholic Church's position that homosexual acts were sinful, but homosexual orientation was not."

If homosexual orientation is not sinful, then that logically implies that the church's stance on homosexuality is that it is not a choice. If it were a choice, then it would be sinful to choose to be homosexual.

Catholic church in mixed messages shocker.

endacl

seamus wrote: »

If homosexual orientation is not sinful, then that logically implies that the church's stance on homosexuality is that it is not a choice. If it were a choice, then it would be sinful to choose to be homosexual.

Catholic church in mixed messages shocker.

Ah g'way now wit yer logic!

Pai Mei

He said that "gay clergy men should be forgiven and their sins forgotten". They forgot more child abusers sins than they did gay priests 'sins'.

doctoremma

I thought this was simply a reiteration of the confirmed position of the Catholic church?

maguic24

NiallSparky wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23489702


I'm no fan of the Catholic church or any of the popes that represent it. This guy seems to be taking some semblance of a progressive attitude though.

I still fail to see why women or homosexuals would want to be involved in such an organisation and I don't think this should or will change that. However, perhaps people with entrenched catholic beliefs will be slightly more tolerant for homosexuals if their leader is coming out with this sort of rhetoric.

Is this softening of the position of the Catholic church genuine or an attempt to slow the decline of their influence on the increasingly rationally-minded developed World?

I don't know about anyone else, but it certainly will not change my attitude toward the catholic church. Bunch of hypocrites!

Corkfeen

doctoremma wrote: »

I thought this was simply a reiteration of the confirmed position of the Catholic church?

Seems like a slight rephrasing of Pope Palpatine's stance.

maguic24

seamus wrote: »

If homosexual orientation is not sinful, then that logically implies that the church's stance on homosexuality is that it is not a choice. If it were a choice, then it would be sinful to choose to be homosexual.

Catholic church in mixed messages shocker.

Not really much of a shocker now is it. Sure half of what they teach is a contradiction. Don't judge people, treat people the same etc, except gays and women, they're both evil. >.<

It makes me sick! A good few people I know go to mass every Sunday, intend to get married in a church etc, yet they have been having sex outside marriage since the age of 16, using contraception, living in sin etc. Why, why do these people go to mass!?!

I don't go to mass and certainly don't intend to get married in a church etc because I like sex, I like using contraception and not getting pregnant, I think gays should marry (not affecting me) and a whole load of other things the catholic church oppose.

Sarky

Pope says vaguely optimistic waffle, then later clarifies that there was no reason for hope in his speech. Must be a weekday.

Nodin

"Pope Francis has said gay people should not be marginalised but integrated into society.

Speaking to reporters on a flight back from Brazil, he reaffirmed the Roman Catholic Church's position that homosexual acts were sinful, but homosexual orientation was not.

He was responding to questions about whether there was a "gay lobby" in the Vatican.

"If a person is gay and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge them?"

He also said he wanted a greater role for women in the Church, but insisted they could not be priests"

Nothin new there lads.

robindch

doctoremma wrote: »

I thought this was simply a reiteration of the confirmed position of the Catholic church?

It is.

Though in all fairness, Frances could have made it much more explicit, and reminded his flock to avoid condemning the sinner as well as the sin.

PopePalpatine

Corkfeen wrote: »

Seems like a slight rephrasing of Pope Palpatine's stance.

You called? :pac:

Nodin

For a bit of "compare and contrast"

South Africa's Nobel peace laureate Archbishop Desmond Tutu says he will never worship a "homophobic God" and will rather go to hell.

The retired archbishop was speaking at the launch of a UN-backed campaign in South Africa to promote gay rights.
..................

In Africa, homosexual acts are still a crime in 38 countries, according to
the rights group Amnesty International.

"I would refuse to go to a homophobic heaven. No, I would say sorry, I mean I would much rather go to the other place," Archbishop Tutu said at the launch of the Free and Equal campaign in Cape Town.

"I would not worship a God who is homophobic and that is how deeply I feel
about this."

Archbishop Tutu said the campaign against homophobia was similar to the
campaign waged against racism in South Africa.

"I am as passionate about this campaign as I ever was about apartheid. For
me, it is at the same level," he added.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-23464694

endacl

Nodin wrote: »

He was responding to questions about whether there was a "gay lobby" in the Vatican.

His reply?

"A lobby?!? When I was their age we had an old disused store room! And were quite happy with it too, thank you very much! Harrumph!"

My translation my be a bit off, but that was the gist. The 'Harrumph' was just a bit of poetic licence. For effect like...

Sarky

The inevitable Onion article: Vatican quickly performs damage control on pope's tolerant remarks.

According to an anonymous source close to the Vatican, the Pope is currently being yelled at by Church officials, who are telling him, “You don’t just go off script like that. Who the **** do you think you are?”

Hotblack Desiato

NiallSparky wrote: »

I still fail to see why women or homosexuals anyone would want to be involved in such an organisation and I don't think this should or will change that.

FYP

Corkfeen

PopePalpatine wrote: »

You called? :pac:

I didn't like the prequels but your backstory to the pope years was both disturbing and unexpected.

PopePalpatine

Corkfeen wrote: »

I didn't like the prequels but your backstory to the pope years was both disturbing and unexpected.

Good...let the hate flow through you...:pac:

LittleBook

seamus wrote: »

If homosexual orientation is not sinful, then that logically implies that the church's stance on homosexuality is that it is not a choice. If it were a choice, then it would be sinful to choose to be homosexual.

Ha, ha, yeah ... even the Pope's an á la carte Catholic these days

Penn

A Jesuit cardinal has become the latest Church leader to speak out forcefully against a government’s push towards same-sex marriage, and has called on his nation’s contemplatives to pray fervently to prevent such laws.

According to an article in tomorrow’s L’Osservatore Romano, Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio, the Archbishop of Buenos Aires and Primate of Argentina, has said that if a proposed bill giving same-sex couples the opportunity to marry and adopt children should be approved, it will “seriously damage the family.”

He made the statement in a letter addressed to each of the four monasteries in Argentina, asking the contemplatives to pray “fervently” that legislators be strengthened to do the right thing.

He wrote: “In the coming weeks, the Argentine people will face a situation whose outcome can seriously harm the family…At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts.”

Cardinal Bergoglio continued: “Let us not be naive: this is not simply a political struggle, but it is an attempt to destroy God’s plan. It is not just a bill (a mere instrument) but a ‘move’ of the father of lies who seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

The cardinal also noted that “today the country, in this particular situation, needs the special assistance of the Holy Spirit to bring the light of truth on to the darkness of error, it need this advocate to defend us from being enchanted by many fallacies that are tried at all costs to justify this bill and to confuse and deceive the people of good will.”

Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio of course now being known as Pope Francis. And that article is from 2010
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/cardinal_bergoglio_hits_out_at_same-sex_marriage

Sarky

He's just as bigoted and disgusting as the last pope. Hands up who's actually shocked?

5uspect

David 'I'm not a Bigot' Quinn was on The Last Word just now basking in the glory of his new Emperor Pope.

I had to laugh at how he dismisses the studies regarding same sex parenting as the 'samples aren't random and are small'*, yet he refuses to change his belief that a child needs a mother and a father and actively campaigns against gay rights. If he's so convinced he's right shouldn't his 'institution' be funding more studies to prove this position? Imagine, a think-tank doing research instead of producing catholic propaganda!

*From what I've read, here and elsewhere, this statement is incorrect. There are enough studies now to perform meta analyses.

endacl

Penn wrote: »

Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio of course now being known as Pope Francis. And that article is from 2010
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/cardinal_bergoglio_hits_out_at_same-sex_marriage

Ah. A bypass. He's not saying gay sex is wrong. He's saying extramarital sex is wrong. If he won't let them marry, then any sex they have is wrong. Outside marriage that is. Celibacy or sin is the choice presented to gay Catholics, because the church won't issue a shagging licence?

Bannasidhe

A GAY man has said that although Pope-ish acts are bad, a Pope-ish orientation is not.

In what his friends claim is a softening of his stance on Popes, 38-year-old gay chef Tom Logan claimed he was fine with them as long as they didn’t do any Pope stuff.

He said: “If a person is a Pope but has good will, who am I to judge them?

“And it would be even more ridiculous if I were to say that then continue by telling Popes how to behave.

“After all I am just a bloke, albeit a bloke with a funny hat – a chef’s hat. Actually that does make me a bit special, so listen up.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/who-am-i-to-judge-the-pope-says-gay-man-2013073077345

badspealler

The ecumenical two-step.

Old pope : :mad: NO.
New pope : Well, okay then, maybe, but...

Hot air folks, move along now, nothing to see here... Move along, thank you.

claypigeon777

Don't be fooled by Frank's seemingly reasonable views.

The Catholic Church's opinions about sex has not changed just because the Pope is preaching love and tolerance.

In a nutshell the ONLY sex that is allowed according to Catholic teaching is unprotected penetrative vaginal sex between one married man and one married woman who are married to each other for the purpose of procreation.

Any other form of sex is adultery and therefore a sin.

Oral sex, anal sex, mutual masturbation etc etc is beyond the pale for heterosexual Catholics never mind homosexuals.

The Gospel preaches "Judge not lest you not be judged."

That's all the Pope is repeating.

It is worth understanding the finer points of Catholic teaching before getting your hopes up that the CC has embraced reality.

Not a hope in hell.