Major SAR Event

roadmaster

I was just wondering if a major accident happened of the irish coast such as a ferry or cruise liner having to be evacuated. Apart from sending the 5 ircg aircraft and the 1 air corps aw 139 that has a winch could the rest of the aw 139's be quickley fitted with winches in casement and then sent to help evacuate or is it a case they have to be fitted in a factory?

kona

I'd say raf would deal with it.

roadmaster

kona wrote: »

I'd say raf would deal with it.

I think them days are long gone we are on are own two feet now. I remember watching sky news a few years ago about chinnese lads fishing that got stuck near liverpool and the presenter asked if they had enoght support and the raf spokesman replied yes as we have irish helicopters on standby to help

tankbarry

last year our Search and Rescue went to the coast of wales to help with taking people off a ship that hit rocks. The RAF called for back up. Waterford heli went over

westdub

kona wrote: »

I'd say raf would deal with it.

Not for much longer..... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21934077

johnsds

roadmaster wrote: »

I was just wondering if a major accident happened of the irish coast such as a ferry or cruise liner having to be evacuated. Apart from sending the 5 ircg aircraft and the 1 air corps aw 139 that has a winch could the rest of the aw 139's be quickley fitted with winches in casement and then sent to help evacuate or is it a case they have to be fitted in a factory?

There is more than one winch..

The above ( Major Exercise ) happened just east of the aran islands a few weeks ago, RESCUE115,RESCUE118, a lot of CG/RNLI and Naval assets were involved including AW139 Heli's and CASA MAROP aircraft.

johnsds

tankbarry wrote: »

last year our Search and Rescue went to the coast of wales to help with taking people off a ship that hit rocks. The RAF called for back up. Waterford heli went over

Are you sure that was not RESCUE116 Dublin as the area where that happened was North wales so closer to Dublin & RAF Valley, it was a container ship, although ( I believe it was RESCUE116 tasked ) the IRCG were tasked I don't believe they actually winched anybody off the cargo ship.

http://news.sky.com/story/7815/ship-runs-aground-as-storms-hit-north-wales

johnsds

kona wrote: »

I'd say raf would deal with it.

Not a notion, they don't have anymore Nimrods even for top cover since the Nimrod fleet was disbanded and destroyed/scrapped so no more "RESCUE51's" out of Kinloss ever. In fact I believe the UK has French Military Aircraft working with the RAF for "top cover" but that is open to debate if someone has a clearer answer.

The Air Corps CASA aircraft fleet do top cover for our Irish Coast Guard.

QUOTE:
Nov 17/10: General Sir David Richards discusses the loss of Britain’s maritime patrol fleet with the House of Commons Defence Committee:


“It hasn’t been a happy acquisition story. Given that its primary role is to do with the deterrent, of which it is one of five layers that do that sort of thing-I am choosing my words clumsily but deliberately-the view was that it was a risk that was acceptable, and we have all signed up to that. I cannot go into the detail of those layers of activity, but people who know much more about it than me were of a view that, in this respect, it was a risk but it was not a gamble… I think I am right in saying, but I will have to confirm it, that the decision has been taken to take those aircraft out of service and not even to mothball them. The professional military now need to work actively with allies to see how we mitigate that risk… The French are very keen to find a way to help us through this, and other nations are doing the same. I think this is going to be a growing part of our lives.”


http://media.aerosociety.com/aerospace-insight/2010/10/29/options-for-raf-maritime-patrol-post-nimrod/3303/

Of course – it may be that option 6 – ‘do nothing’ is the preferred option and that the UK’s maritime patrol aircraft capability – so vital with Coastal Command and the Battle of the Atlantic is allowed to die. Co-operation with NATO and EU allies would mean that role specialisation of MPA would be left to someone else – an odd choice for an island nation. Indeed, it has already been reported that France has offered to support the UK with its Bréguet Atlantique fleet ahead of a new Anglo-French defence entente – driven not by a strategic rapprochement but by hard fiscal realities for both nations. However in these new austerity times it may be that the MPA mission, once given up, is never reconstituted – and the longer the capability ‘holiday’, the more likely this is – for as any future Treasury might argue: “well – you seem to have coped alright without it.”

pclancy

I would have thought a ferry or cruise liner being evacuated would be handled by the ships own lifeboats who would then be rescued by other shipping or navy/coastguard. You wouldnt want to winch 2000 people one by one from the Irish Ferry Ulysees for example. Especially in heaving seas!

kona

Do the Irish coast guard have a better status than the raf at this stage?

Klunk001

pclancy wrote: »

I would have thought a ferry or cruise liner being evacuated would be handled by the ships own lifeboats who would then be rescued by other shipping or navy/coastguard. You wouldnt want to winch 2000 people one by one from the Irish Ferry Ulysees for example. Especially in heaving seas!

I would be inclined to agree, you would also have the use of RNLI all weather lifeboats. A surge capabilities does exist where air assets from neighbouring SAR bases can be used, this includes the UK.
The MV Swanland is a good example, it sank in heavy seas off Wales. RAF valley launched their assets, while R116 and R118 were also launched. 118 managed to retrieve one of the crew.

I believe 2 IAC 139's are fitted with winches. The multi agency exercise off Galway a few weeks ago had 1x 139 take part.

roadmaster

If a ferry does get in trouble i dont think lifeboats and other ships would be enoght as they will need every helicopter that can be sent. Surley they should have every 139 fitted with winches. I understand there main duty is for army transport but surley its madness not having winches on all since we are surrounded by water. Its better to have the option then not.

urajoke

There will be plans in place for an major event like this and will have been agreed by every agency that may/will be needed.

Just because the RAF don't do SAR anymore doesn't mean that the UK is no longer covered by someone doing SAR it's just it's gone out to tender and been won privately. The private company and IRCG should have I imagine 5-6 helis available at immediate notice the you have the RNLI who have as much capacity plus more than helis. You will also have other vessels coming to the ships aid and they can be used by the helis to drop of the survivors.

The RAF just like the Aer Corp will have aircraft with winches chinook and merlin come to mind, that could be tasked. The French and Belgians can widen their areas of coverage to cover the UK if more UK assets needs to be drawn down on. The French and Begians regularly cover the south coast of the UK and regularly perform rescues in Kent from their bases in France and Belgium.

SAR is not hap hazard it's well thought out with every possible problem planned for. It's like the major emergency plans in place in hospitals for major events, everyone on days off gets called then people on leave and then way down the list is former staff still Registered Nurses etc will be texted in the event of requirement. But remember there will always be volunteers, Aer Corp will call people in and declare what assets are available, the RAF will do the same etc etc etc.

Storm 10

Just because the RAF don't do SAR anymore doesn't mean that the UK is no longer covered by someone doing SAR it's just it's gone out to tender and been won privately

The RAF Search and Rescue finish date is the end of 2016, so they are still carring out search and rescue jobs.

Rescue 116 is getting a lot of call outs in the North now as is Rescue 118 from Sligo. Rescue 117 and 116 have been called on to assist in a number of incidents off the UK coast.

tankbarry

Are you sure that was not RESCUE116 Dublin as the area where that happened was North wales so closer to Dublin & RAF Valley, it was a container ship, although ( I believe it was RESCUE116 tasked ) the IRCG were tasked I don't believe they actually winched anybody off the cargo ship.

Waterford heli did go over. Although they didn't winch anybody

johnsds

Klunk001 wrote: »

I would be inclined to agree, you would also have the use of RNLI all weather lifeboats. A surge capabilities does exist where air assets from neighbouring SAR bases can be used, this includes the UK.
The MV Swanland is a good example, it sank in heavy seas off Wales. RAF valley launched their assets, while R116 and R118 were also launched. 118 managed to retrieve one of the crew.

I believe 2 IAC 139's are fitted with winches. The multi agency exercise off Galway a few weeks ago had 1x 139 take part.

Would it not have been 117 from Waterford and 116 from Dublin?

Klunk001

johnsds wrote: »

Would it not have been 117 from Waterford and 116 from Dublin?

You are correct, my error. 117 was also tasked and it was 117 who retrieved the crew member, not 118. 116 and 118 also assisted. There is a photo floating of 3 S 61's sitting on the ramp at Valley along with RAF Sea Kings.

johnsds

Klunk001 wrote: »

You are correct, my error. 117 was also tasked and it was 117 who retrieved the crew member, not 118. 116 and 118 also assisted. There is a photo floating of 3 S 61's sitting on the ramp at Valley along with RAF Sea Kings.

Picture here: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3963958/Wills-saves-two-as-wave-sinks-ship.html

Del2005

roadmaster wrote: »

If a ferry does get in trouble i dont think lifeboats and other ships would be enoght as they will need every helicopter that can be sent. Surley they should have every 139 fitted with winches. I understand there main duty is for army transport but surley its madness not having winches on all since we are surrounded by water. Its better to have the option then not.

Helicopters should only be used for critical emergencies. The life boats and other shipping should be able to handle the vast majority of passengers, the helicopter would then have a lot less to deal with.

notharrypotter

Helicopters should only be used for critical emergencies. The life boats and other shipping should be able to handle the vast majority of passengers

RNLI new TAMAR class Max speed 25kts, range 250 nautical miles.
http://rnli.org/aboutus/lifeboatsandstations/lifeboats/Pages/Tamar.aspx
The Severn/Tyne and Trent have similar speed and range profiles.

Range and time to incident are important.
Heli would be a first responder followed by Irish naval service/RNLI as appropriate.


There is an agreement between the Irish Coastguard and its UK counterparts in terms of what resources they each have and how they can/will cooperate.

johnsds

Del2005 wrote: »

Helicopters should only be used for critical emergencies. The life boats and other shipping should be able to handle the vast majority of passengers, the helicopter would then have a lot less to deal with.

I think a ship going down or ANY nautical emergency requires a helicopter.

The helicopter will always get there well before a lifeboat, the new S92's operated by the Irish Coast Guard are destroying response times to emergencies.

Last time RESCUE115 came in from aran island to uchg was around 7-9 minutes. Amazing.

BEASTERLY

A quick image search online shows that all AC 139's have been fitted with winches at some stage, just not permanent fixtures on some. Also some are fitted with FLIR also so certainly SAR capable in the event of a major emergency. The AC 135's also have winches.

So between CG and AC there is potentially up to 13 SAR capable helis on the Island at any one time. Surely at least 8 or 9 would be available if the unthinkable were to happen. In addition there is two AC CASA with the ability to drop lift rafts and para flares. I think overall we are pretty well equipped in terms of SAR air assets for a relatively small island.

johnsds

BEASTERLY wrote: »

Also some are fitted with FLIR also so certainly SAR capable in the event of a major emergency.

I believe all the AW139's have FLIR balls but don't use them unless its for night ops/army training.

Also all the AW139 and EC135 are NVE capable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQZK67DmMIA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_94j1-Bf_nk

urajoke

johnsds wrote: »

I think a ship going down or ANY nautical emergency requires a helicopter.

The helicopter will always get there well before a lifeboat, the new S92's operated by the Irish Coast Guard are destroying response times to emergencies.

Last time RESCUE115 came in from aran island to uchg was around 7-9 minutes. Amazing.

Get where exactly first, bit of a broad statement that. So a heli would get to a vessel 10 miles east of Dublin port before the Howth or Dun Laoighaire lifeboats could.

It's not a case of get the shout and run out to the heli and go.

Del2005

johnsds wrote: »

I think a ship going down or ANY nautical emergency requires a helicopter.

The helicopter will always get there well before a lifeboat, the new S92's operated by the Irish Coast Guard are destroying response times to emergencies.

Last time RESCUE115 came in from aran island to uchg was around 7-9 minutes. Amazing.

Of course it'll require a helicopter if a ship sinks or gets into other trouble. What I was trying to say that the vast majority of people will be rescued from the life boats by other shipping as there just aren't enough choppers available to rescue all passengers from a ferry or cruise liner.