Joffrey, not such a bad guy

nyarlothothep

I think he's just a spoilt child in a medieval way, hence the killing, torture etc. People are his playthings but that's all he regards them as, his toys, it's not personal. He's not actually evil, he was just made into a total bastard by Cersei who over indulged him. He even has the potential to become good.

For example, Margaery coaxes him into waving to the smallfolk. Initially, he's bemused, the people are cheering, it's not about violence or cruelty, everyone is being nice, he does not understand. Follwing her example he waves, confusedly at first, but realises, hey, it's ok to be kind king. I think Margaery would eventually transform him into a nicer person who wouldn't go on cruel rampages, her positive, ameliorating influence would turn him into a good king, albeit with a penchant for douchebaggery from time to time. I remember reading or hearing that Ivan the Terrible was actually an ok ruler when he was married. It was when his wife died that he became a complete bastard. Joffrey is the same I think, his evilness is simplistic and the result of bad parenting, it's not innate, as with Ramsay Bolton who is a complete ****. Ramsay is a total psychopath with no redeeming qualities, whereas Joffrey is just an idiot with no awareness that people are not toys that he can throw around and break when he doesn't get his way.

PhlegmyMoses

Ramsay is a product of his environment as well. You don't grow up watching your dad flay people and turn out normal. That being said, there is no redemption for him. No woman could change him and he shows he understands the concept of kindness throughout the series, he just uses it as a weapon.

touts

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I think he's just a spoilt child in a medieval way, hence the killing, torture etc. People are his playthings but that's all he regards them as, his toys, it's not personal. He's not actually evil, he was just made into a total bastard by Cersei who over indulged him. He even has the potential to become good.

For example, Margaery coaxes him into waving to the smallfolk. Initially, he's bemused, the people are cheering, it's not about violence or cruelty, everyone is being nice, he does not understand. Follwing her example he waves, confusedly at first, but realises, hey, it's ok to be kind king. I think Margaery would eventually transform him into a nicer person who wouldn't go on cruel rampages, her positive, ameliorating influence would turn him into a good king, albeit with a penchant for douchebaggery from time to time. I remember reading or hearing that Ivan the Terrible was actually an ok ruler when he was married. It was when his wife died that he became a complete bastard. Joffrey is the same I think, his evilness is simplistic and the result of bad parenting, it's not innate, as with Ramsay Bolton who is a complete ****. Ramsay is a total psychopath with no redeeming qualities, whereas Joffrey is just an idiot with no awareness that people are not toys that he can throw around and break when he doesn't get his way.

His head will still look good on a spike though.

degrassinoel

not such a bad guy, but still has his half brothers murdered and kills prostitutes for craic.. maybe it's just a phase he's going through

Grimebox

Are you discussing the books too? I've only seen the TV show and I've always thought Joffrey's character was a bit over the top. How did he become the person he is? I can understand how he could become like that if he was king but he wasn't always king.

As for Ramsay, we know nothing about him.

tricky D

There's a scene with Sansa in s01e06 (40 mins) where he's shockingly well behaved. Almost a credible redemption until you remember that Cersei has put him up to it.

nyarlothothep

Grimebox wrote: »

Are you discussing the books too? I've only seen the TV show and I've always thought Joffrey's character was a bit over the top. How did he become the person he is? I can understand how he could become like that if he was king but he wasn't always king.

As for Ramsay, we know nothing about him.

If we are discussing the books can people use spoiler tags as I haven't read them all yet. He is the product of incest, also some people do unleash their inner bastard when put in a position of authority. The warning signs were there with Joffrey in relation to his conflict with the butcher's boy. Also he's ignored by his "father" Robert Baratheon. In the books so far as I know, Ramsay was only recently adopted into the Bolton family, before that he lived in squalor? So he wouldn't have been witnessing people being flayed alive?

nyarlothothep

degrassinoel wrote: »

not such a bad guy, but still has his half brothers murdered and kills prostitutes for craic.. maybe it's just a phase he's going through

He's just playing medieval GTA, just give him the game and he'd be alright.

Lelantos

Other than being an inbred psychopath he's a sound auld skin really

podgemonster

King Joffery was shown nothing but love as a child from his mother, her one redeeming feature is that she loves her children. But Joffery was heavily spoilt and often left to do as he please so much so that he has now gone past the control of his loving mother.

His arrogance stems from this treatment, he is now so deluded he respects no-one opinion but his own and acts reckless and is extremely stupid tactically. Had he not beheaded Ned, it would be a very different story arc, he doesnt see past Margarys manipulation of him and his battle plan for the Blackwater was to face Stannis outnumbered in open battle.

His sheltered upbringing and his distant relationship with Robert never allowed him to mature like the Starks. Hes sees Sansa as meerly a puppet to play with, Robb and Stannis as only deliquents who should be punished. When things get hairy we see that he is still simplya scared boy, we see this when he is bitten by Nymeria and again at the Blackwater.

The only intelligent thing he said in series 3 were his inguiries about Dany's movements. Amazingly Jof seems to be only person in Westoros who see's a vengeful Targaryan, with an army of 10,000 trained killers, half a Dothraki Horde, a legendary Knight and THREE fúcking Dragons as a threat.

However there is something that Cersei is not responsible for. Joffery has had a sadistic nature since birth. As a child he gutted a cat to remove its unborn kittens, he gets a semi when Margary suggest she kill things, he has whores beat each other rather than beat him off. His promotion to King has allowed him to fufill sadistic cruel acts without question. He relishes in the torture of people and the knowing that death have occurred in in his name or by his orders. Unlike Ramsay, Joff has a short attention span and while enjoys torture he gets border very easily.

Joffery is esstianally the bully. Arrogant, cocky, cruel but underneath it all a coward. Bad since birth but corrupted further by a mother who never told him "no" and father who never taught him anything. He's is as real as any other character and one of my favourites.

Long Live the King

tricky D

At least grand-daddy can still send him to bed without his supper!

Liam O

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Ramsay is a product of his environment as well. You don't grow up watching your dad flay people and turn out normal. That being said, there is no redemption for him. No woman could change him and he shows he understands the concept of kindness throughout the series, he just uses it as a weapon.

Slight book spoiler:

Ramsey didn't watch his dad do anything, he was raised by his mother, this story really doesn't paint mothers influence in the best of light

ArmaniJeanss

podgemonster wrote: »

King Joffery was shown nothing but love as a child from his mother, her one redeeming feature is that she loves her children.

That, and her cheekbones.

December2012

Might be up your street


http://thejoffreyofpodcasts.podomatic.com/rss2.xml