Michael Collins Death.

Ash.J.Williams

Any experts here on Michael Collins?
From what I gather:

• His final Journey was tactically and militarily flawed.
• His companion in the car seems believable.
• He advised Michael to keep driving and Michael chose to fight.
• They all took cover and engaged in a gun battle.
• Michael left his cover and started shooting in the open.
• The bullet hole was massive. (exit wound anyway)
• It was a mauser that fired the shot.

Some have believed The bullet may have been a dum dum, hence the huge exit wound. How plausible was it that all the bullets were modified or was collins just unlucky he was hit by a lucky dum dum? (Dums dums were illegal at this point).

There are some who believe he was taken out by one of his own. ( i have no idea about this other than hearsay)

It is known that there was pressure on Collins mental state at the time and he may have suffered a breakdown. (he seemed to genuinely love his country and the accusations that he sold out, actually sickened him, along with fighting against his own men in a civil war)
Could it have been possible that he just said "ah f** this" and walked out into the firing line on purpose?
Are there other examples of military men basically committing suicide in battle?

Sonics2k

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

Any experts here on Michael Collins?
From what I gather:

• His final Journey was tactically and militarily flawed.
• His companion in the car seems believable.
• He advised Michael to keep driving and Michael chose to fight.
• They all took cover and engaged in a gun battle.
• Michael left his cover and started shooting in the open.
• The bullet hole was massive. (exit wound anyway)
• It was a mauser that fired the shot.

Some have believed The bullet may have been a dum dum, hence the huge exit wound. How plausible was it that all the bullets were modified or was collins just unlucky he was hit by a lucky dum dum? (Dums dums were illegal at this point).

There are some who believe he was taken out by one of his own. ( i have no idea about this other than hearsay)

It is known that there was pressure on Collins mental state at the time and he may have suffered a breakdown. (he seemed to genuinely love his country and the accusations that he sold out, actually sickened him, along with fighting against his own men in a civil war)
Could it have been possible that he just said "ah f** this" and walked out into the firing line on purpose?
Are there other examples of military men basically committing suicide in battle?

Collins died because he was an arrogant man with no patience who though he could take them all on.

If anything, the conspiracy would be if Dev ordered it or not.

seanmacc

I heard a theory from a man who researched Collins' death that it may of been the Brits that took him out rather than the accepted version of him getting caught by a lucky shot in an ambush. There was a consensus that Collins may took the losing of the 6 counties as too bitter a pill to swallow and that a military move North may of been a possible way to end the Civil War and quell dissadent voices. The Brits may of seen him and his strong personality cult as a danger. I'm not saying that this researcher took this version as fact but as one of a number of possibilities. One thing he was sure of is that the historically accepted version of events was only partially true.

I won't name this person but they have a book coming out in the not too distant future about this and many other events of Ireland in the early to mid 20th Century.

Gatling

If it was a Mauser rifle chances are it was using an 8mm round these cause massive cavitations and exit wounds ,
Pretty standards stuff for the time

Ash.J.Williams

Gatling wrote: »

If it was a Mauser rifle chances are it was using an 8mm round these cause massive cavitations and exit wounds ,
Pretty standards stuff for the time

yeah i think it was some sort of hybrid, you can modify a mauser into a rifle can you??

Ash.J.Williams

seanmacc wrote: »

I heard a theory from a man who researched Collins' death that it may of been the Brits that took him out rather than the accepted version of him getting caught by a lucky shot in an ambush. There was a consensus that Collins may took the losing of the 6 counties as too bitter a pill to swallow and that a military move North may of been a possible way to end the Civil War and quell dissadent voices. The Brits may of seen him and his strong personality cult as a danger. I'm not saying that this researcher took this version as fact but as one of a number of possibilities. One thing he was sure of is that the historically accepted version of events was only partially true.

I won't name this person but they have a book coming out in the not too distant future about this and many other events of Ireland in the early to mid 20th Century.

I'd say the British were just sitting back watching everything going to plan!!

Gatling

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

yeah i think it was some sort of hybrid, you can modify a mauser into a rifle can you??

The Mauser C 96 aka the broom handle was a magazine fed pistol that you could fit a wooden stock which doubled as its case to make it a quite accurate pistol when fired from the shoulder ,

I grew up with the myth Collins was shot by one of of his own men who accidental fired into the road and ricocheted into Collins

Some believe it was a Mauser rifle that fired the fatal shot not a pistol

claypigeon777

Collins' body was examined by Dr. Patrick Cagney who had served with the Royal Army Medical Corps during the First World War and was an authority on gunshot wounds. There was a small entrance wound in the forehead at the hairline and a large exit wound behind the right ear consistent with a .303 Lee Enfield rifle bullet. Often a bullet will mangle or break into pieces inside the head and create a large exit hole. The pressure wave caused by a bullet passing through the skull and brain can also cause the cranium to come part and rip a large exit hole.

Stinicker

I have been told from several sources that Collins was shot by a Kerry man from Castleisland and that the orders came directly from Eamon DeValera who knew that him and his allies would have no future with Collins still in the picture.

claypigeon777

Stinicker wrote: »

I have been told from several sources that Collins was shot by a Kerry man from Castleisland and that the orders came directly from Eamon DeValera who knew that him and his allies would have no future with Collins still in the picture.

The consensus among historians is that Collins was killed by Denis ("Sonny") O'Neill, an Anti-Treaty IRA fighter and a former British Army marksman who died in 1950. Liam Deasy, who was in command of the ambush party, said, "We all knew it was Sonny O'Neill's bullet." De Valera DID NOT order the assassination because he was not a military leader and he was seeking a peaceful end to the civil war at the time. He had no military rank and it was the local IRA commanders who met nearby who got wind that Collins would make his return journey through Beal na Blath that evening who made decision to mount the ambush. I would suggest you read Meda Ryan's account of the assassination since she has done exhaustive research on the subject.

Esel

claypigeon777 wrote: »

I would suggest you read Meda Ryan's account of the assassination since she has done exhaustive research on the subject.

It could hardly be termed an assassination.

claypigeon777

Esel wrote: »

It could hardly be termed an assassination.

Assassination is the murder or killing of a prominent person or political figure by a surprise attack, usually for payment or political reasons.

General Michael Collins was the Commander in Chief of the National Army and was Chairman of the Provisional Government.

He was killed in a surprise attack and his killing was for political reasons.

What else could it have been but an assassination?

Esel

claypigeon777 wrote: »

Assassination is the murder or killing of a prominent person or political figure by a surprise attack, usually for payment or political reasons.

General Michael Collins was the Commander in Chief of the National Army and was Chairman of the Provisional Government.

He was killed in a surprise attack and his killing was for political reasons.

What else could it have been but an assassination?

There was a war on. He was a soldier in that war, and was killed in a military engagement.

Seeing as you are quoting a definition from wikipedia: the entry on his death does not read (to me) as an assassination. You could edit it, of course...

claypigeon777

Esel wrote: »

There was a war on. He was a soldier in that war, and was killed in a military engagement.

Seeing as you are quoting a definition from wikipedia: the entry on his death does not read (to me) as an assassination. You could edit it, of course...

An assassination can be a form of military engagement during war.

The ambush at Beal na mBlath was a military engagement with the purpose of assassinating General Collins.

There have been many assassinations of prominent people during other wars.

I fail to see what you are driving at except to engage in pedantry.

Esel

claypigeon777 wrote: »

An assassination can be a form of military engagement during war.

The ambush at Beal na mBlath was a military engagement with the purpose of assassinating General Collins.

There have been many assassinations of prominent people during other wars.

I fail to see what you are driving at except to engage in pedantry.

Fair enough then.

Pedantry though - really?