Any tips for a graduate?

a fat guy

Hi guys, I graduated two months ago and got my level 8, so now I'm out looking for a job. Do you have any tips for my first job search?

Applying online doesn't seem to yield much return, although there aren't many jobs out there for graduates. I already have a Github account with all of my projects on it for employers to see.

There's a link to it on my CV too. I don't regularly update it, but I do often work on the projects (We were taught that only meaningful updates should be committed, none of that "commit at the end of the day" stuff).

Also, I know that EVERYONE says that education is nothing like real work, so could someone elaborate on that? Even people who don't do anything related to I.T. say it to me, but no-one tells me what it entails.

I've done an internship before for college, but they didn't let me in on the main workload. They'd either have me doing non-I.T. stuff or working by myself on something completely separate from the main stuff that wasn't really important.

Any tips would be appreciated, or if you could tell me how you prepare for I.T. jobs, that'd be great too!

KonFusion

What job/field/area would you like to get into?

fergalr

a fat guy wrote: »

Hi guys, I graduated two months ago and got my level 8, so now I'm out looking for a job. Do you have any tips for my first job search?

Applying online doesn't seem to yield much return, although there aren't many jobs out there for graduates. I already have a Github account with all of my projects on it for employers to see.

There's a link to it on my CV too.

Are you communicating your skills on your CV? People often put a lot of things no one cares about on their CV.
Tell people what you can do. Provide evidence that you aren't making things up.

If you prefer not to share your CV online, try find someone IRL to give you honest feedback on it. Ideally someone who has screened CVs before.

Go to events like 'pub standards' in dublin and talk to people who hire programmers.

a fat guy wrote: »

I don't regularly update it, but I do often work on the projects (We were taught that only meaningful updates should be committed, none of that "commit at the end of the day" stuff).

Tangent:
Commit early, commit often, don't break the build. Use branches if you aren't confident your commit is good. Tests increase your confidence.

Always commit at the end of the day. This helps you get into the habit of leaving your code in a state where its nice to come back to, which is good practice.

a fat guy wrote: »

Also, I know that EVERYONE says that education is nothing like real work, so could someone elaborate on that?

I think this is just one of those things people say that doesn't really mean anything, because they can't think of anything better to say, and because its one of those things people think they should say.

"Did you see that ludicrous display last night?"

I wouldn't worry about it. Sure, there's obviously differences, but classmates I had who wrote good code and made cool projects in college wrote good code and built good stuff in their work.

a fat guy wrote: »

Even people who don't do anything related to I.T. say it to me, but no-one tells me what it entails.

I've done an internship before for college, but they didn't let me in on the main workload. They'd either have me doing non-I.T. stuff or working by myself on something completely separate from the main stuff that wasn't really important.

Any tips would be appreciated, or if you could tell me how you prepare for I.T. jobs, that'd be great too!

I would pick the kind of thing I'd like to do in my job, and get good at doing it, and do projects that demonstrate my skill.

The projects can be very modest, but ideally would be finished/polished/shipped to some minimal level, or have created some small quantum of value somewhere.

Unless the market for grads has much changed, that should surely be a good start for a grad to get a job..?

a fat guy

KonFusion wrote: »

What job/field/area would you like to get into?

I really want to work in some form of programming. I have experience with SAP and Oracle databases, but I see them as a dead-end, with not much room to improve my skillset.

If I was working with Java, Rails, PHP, etc, I'd be very happy.


And thanks for the feedback Fergalr, I know that not all the advice I've gotten so far is going to be 100% true (specifically what I was told about commits), and I can see why committing often can look good on your Github account, since it shows your committing activity.

Regarding the projects I have, three of them are in Rails, which I absolutely love with a passion. They're all finished products, and I've got a fairly big (finished)JSP project up there too, as well as a small Ruby example. Since most websites are in PHP, would that adversely affect the impression that employers get from my account? I'm working on an Android game too, just because I want some variety and because all the cool kids can make Android stuff... :pac:

Would you say that my account could do with a PHP project as well?

Sorry if this post rambles on without structure by the way, I'm quite tired at the moment!

KonFusion

Give this a read:

http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/

a fat guy wrote: »

Since most websites are in PHP, would that adversely affect the impression that employers get from my account?

Nah.

fergalr

a fat guy wrote: »

I really want to work in some form of programming. I have experience with SAP and Oracle databases, but I see them as a dead-end, with not much room to improve my skillset.

Things like SAP and Oracle won't 'go away' this week or the next, though. You could absolutely set out to build a new career just in SAP and Oracle and probably do very well out of it.

Don't get me wrong - if you don't want to work with those technologies, definitely don't - but those techs aren't going to disappear for a while.

a fat guy wrote: »

If I was working with Java, Rails, PHP, etc, I'd be very happy.

There is plenty of work in those areas, afaik.

a fat guy wrote: »

And thanks for the feedback Fergalr, I know that not all the advice I've gotten so far is going to be 100% true (specifically what I was told about commits), and I can see why committing often can look good on your Github account, since it shows your committing activity.

You should commit lots because its a good way to manage your development, rather than of how it looks to someone viewing your github profile.

Its important to have projects you can show people to demonstrate your competence, if you have no other experience. I wouldn't worry about how your commit frequency looks to others. (Maybe people are looking at that sort of thing; seems OTT to me, though)

a fat guy wrote: »

Regarding the projects I have, three of them are in Rails, which I absolutely love with a passion. They're all finished products, and I've got a fairly big (finished)JSP project up there too, as well as a small Ruby example. Since most websites are in PHP, would that adversely affect the impression that employers get from my account? I'm working on an Android game too, just because I want some variety and because all the cool kids can make Android stuff... :pac:

It sounds like you really like Rails and want to work on it. Its great that you love even one piece of tech with a passion, probably means you'll be fine eventually.


You don't need to be skilled at 5 different frameworks to get a job.
Lots of people get hired because they are able to build stuff in just one framework.

I mean, its really great that you are learning about lots of frameworks, and its a sign you are eager to learn which generally is good, but you shouldn't feel you have to learn many to get a job.

While learning many frameworks is probably a good thing in the long run, in the short run you would probably be more likely to get a job if you go deep in one of them, and brand yourself as a specialist in that framework, and demonstrate competence in it.

a fat guy wrote: »

Would you say that my account could do with a PHP project as well?

No. Lots of people get hired as 'rails guys' based purely on demonstrated ability coding rails. You won't need to do PHP projects to get hired to do rails, if rails is what you want to work on.

You are probably better off at improving your skills in Rails, if thats what you want to work on, instead.

If thats what you want to do, then get good at it, get fast at it, learn about it, start going to ruby meetups, find out what you need to know, etc.

fergalr

KonFusion wrote: »

Give this a read:

http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/

That post (by patio11 from hacker news) has lots of good stuff in it, and well worth reading; but a lot of the advice is more applicable towards someone trying to move their career on, rather than a grad looking to land their first job.

I definitely see the sense in branding yourself as 'someone who can solve this particular expensive business problem' later in your career, but to get your first job it might be easier to just be 'a rails guy who knows rails really well'.

stevenmu

They have a bad rep, and often for good reasons, but talk to some recruitment agencies and see what they come up with. You could also try applying to the Big 4, they're often looking for grads.

a fat guy wrote: »

I really want to work in some form of programming. I have experience with SAP and Oracle databases, but I see them as a dead-end, with not much room to improve my skillset.

They're not dead by any means, or even close. The Blogosphere is constantly saying that Technology X is the new big thing and that everything else is dead, but notice how X changes every 3 to 6 months

Tar.Aldarion

I'd definitely talk to recruitment agencies, even insofar as they give you practice interviews and information and such. I went to one before for a job and I didn't get it, they rang me 6 months later with my current job.

a fat guy

Thanks for all the help guys!

I've been talking to a few places, and it seems like the smaller companies are a lot easier to get into than the bigger ones.

Also, is it a big red flag if a company doesn't have any developers whatsoever, and I'm the first programmer they get? One of the companies I'm talking to doesn't have any developers of any kind, and they don't know anything about the different technologies/languages out there. Don't seem to be phased that I'm just a graduate either, although the guy I talked to did ask me to make a website to show off what I can do.

And I must give a shout-out to Jobsbridge, because I sent an e-mail off for one of those "internships" clearly stating that I need to be paid a decent wage in order to work, and that I was already experienced in the stuff they'd be teaching me. I managed to get a phone call booked! Happy days!

RealistSpy

a fat guy wrote: »

Thanks for all the help guys!

I've been talking to a few places, and it seems like the smaller companies are a lot easier to get into than the bigger ones.

Also, is it a big red flag if a company doesn't have any developers whatsoever, and I'm the first programmer they get? One of the companies I'm talking to doesn't have any developers of any kind, and they don't know anything about the different technologies/languages out there. Don't seem to be phased that I'm just a graduate either, although the guy I talked to did ask me to make a website to show off what I can do.

And I must give a shout-out to Jobsbridge, because I sent an e-mail off for one of those "internships" clearly stating that I need to be paid a decent wage in order to work, and that I was already experienced in the stuff they'd be teaching me. I managed to get a phone call booked! Happy days!

Good luck on the new Job.

Boards.ie: Paddy

http://www.adverts.ie/jobs/distilled-media/graduate-software-developer/2692329

Just sayin'...

stevenmu

a fat guy wrote: »

Also, is it a big red flag if a company doesn't have any developers whatsoever, and I'm the first programmer they get? One of the companies I'm talking to doesn't have any developers of any kind, and they don't know anything about the different technologies/languages out there. Don't seem to be phased that I'm just a graduate either, although the guy I talked to did ask me to make a website to show off what I can do.

That would definitely raise some flags.

The most obvious is that as a recent graduate you really need to have some more senior developers around, partially to help you with coding itself, but perhaps more importantly to help you with coding in a professional business environment. There also won't be anyone on hand to help dig you out of any holes you fall into.

You will also be very prone to picking up bad habits and won't have anyone more experienced on hand to call you on it and encourage you in the use of best practices. Even if you really dedicate yourself to learning and researching as much as you can, there's often no real substitute for experience.

Possibly the most worrying thing is that as a recent graduate you will most likely be tightly managed, but it will be by someone who has no idea about software development. They won't know how to properly define requirements, estimate realistic timescales, do proper testing and validation etc. It could be a very frustrating experience for you.

Finally, there's probably going to be very little chance of progression. It's hard to say for sure exactly what your future may be in a company like that, but the most likely scenario is that they expect you to take on a certain role and do that forever. If you are the first and only developer in the company, it's hard to see what roles you could progress to.

McDonnellDean

I got in to software after working in sales all my life. I had a passion for it so I worked at building up OSS sample work which helped with getting a job. By way of example see: https://github.com/McDonnellDean/Nano.Inspection

This project allowed me to demonstrated a few things, in no particular order and not exhaustive:

- C# usage
- Patterns and Practices
- Package Deployment
- Version Control (Git)
- Versioning (SemVer)
- MultiTargeting
- Unit Testing


If you take just that list it gives you plenty to talk about in an interview. I am a massive fan of using OSS as proof of your work.

a fat guy

@Paddy, I applied for the graduate position, but the person I was e-mailing wasn't very clear about exactly what I was meant to do. The PDF said we weren't meant to make a natural-language system, but it implied that we were meant to at the same time. I asked Eva(Person I was e-mailing) exactly what I was meant to do, but was basically told to "roughly" do a natural language understanding system?

My code wasn't up to scratch in the end anyway, as I need more practice at PHP. Hadn't done any in quite a few years actually. In the end, I bought a book to brush up on 5.3 (There were no books on 5.5 or 5.4), so it's not like I didn't get anything out of this! Thanks for the thought anyway lad, I appreciate it.



@Steve, the more I think about it, the more I'm beginning to think that neither of the jobs I got interviews for are actually any good. one is "pre-revenue" and the other I've already talked about.

The more I think of the one without any other IT guys the worse it sounds. I keep remembering things that the interviewer would say during the interview that gave me the impression that the company was on its last legs and quite desperate. In retrospect, he himself seemed pretty downtrodden too. I agreed to make them a site anyway, since I'm still entertaining the thought of working with them. I really don't want to work with them, but this has been my first proper interview and I said I'd do it before I even thought it through. It's starting to feel pretty dead-end at this stage though.

The "pre-revenue" place sounded great at first, but if I'm not making any money and there's only one other developer that's never even there to begin with (They meet up once a month.) then it's not really ideal. I doubt I'd get much money from a job working with these guys, and I wouldn't get the developers environment either. They're certainly more clued-up when it comes to I.T. alright, as the director actually knew a bit of stuff about programming, despite having a business background. Despite that, I think there'd be no money there, nor much work since they still are pre-revenue, meaning that they haven't found anywhere that wants to use their services yet.

Neither of these places would give me a developers environment... Which isn't exactly ideal



@Dean, I'm starting to think that you have the right idea. Job searching is honestly starting to make me feel quite crap, and I'd much prefer to just be developing things on my own, in my own time. I have a bit of money saved up from doing some stock-taking at a local shop, so I can afford some books and I'll make something using them.



I'll probably check out a recruitment agency and see if they can help me out. I've never used one before, so I'm not 100% sure how they work. Do I just pay them once and let them go nuts or what? I'll most likely end up using Hartley People in Waterford, which is close enough to home that I wouldn't have to travel far in order to keep tabs on them. They have six jobs advertised on their site, but I've heard before that companies sometimes only hire through recruitment agencies, and only want certain types of developers, so hopefully they have a few developer jobs hidden up their sleeves...

Edit: And I was thinking of making a website with links to everything potential employers would be interested in.Maybe even explanations for my Github projects, guides on how to use them, what they are, etc. I could even upload some of the reports I made throughout college, some of the ones I did in fourth year got me pretty high marks. I've already deployed sites on Cloud Foundry before, so it'd be pretty easy to host it too. Good idea?

McDonnellDean

In terms of time, it took 4 years to get to a point where I could write something that was large and good enough for me to comfortably stand over. I didn't use books in the end. I found some simple OSS projects, spent time learning them and then wrote some bits based off of that knowledge.

stevenmu

a fat guy wrote: »

The "pre-revenue" place sounded great at first, but if I'm not making any money and there's only one other developer that's never even there to begin with (They meet up once a month.) then it's not really ideal. I doubt I'd get much money from a job working with these guys, and I wouldn't get the developers environment either. They're certainly more clued-up when it comes to I.T. alright, as the director actually knew a bit of stuff about programming, despite having a business background. Despite that, I think there'd be no money there, nor much work since they still are pre-revenue, meaning that they haven't found anywhere that wants to use their services yet.

Is "pre-revenue" a term for a start-up that hasn't raised any money and doesn't have an income stream yet?

In that case it's important to remember that if you're not being paid a fair wage, then you're not an employee you are an investor and you should be getting huge chunks of equity in exchange for your time.

It's naturally risky working for a start-up like that, and it sounds like you have similar issues around have other development support. I suppose the difference with a startup is that it can be a great learning experience, more exciting, you are likely to be working on new stuff all the time, obvious chances of progression, and if you get a good chunk of equity it that helps motivate you to pump a lot of your time into it.

But you'd have to have a lot of faith in their business model and plan, and be able to live without being paid for a while.

stevenmu

I'll probably check out a recruitment agency and see if they can help me out. I've never used one before, so I'm not 100% sure how they work. Do I just pay them once and let them go nuts or what?

Generally you don't have to pay them at all, they normally get paid by the employer who hires you. Normally you contact them first, then send in a CV, then they may want to do an interview with you themselves (either in person or on the phone). Then they'll send your details to any relevant employers they have with positions open, and they'll usually act as a go-between between you and the employer to arrange any interviews or stuff like that.

The bad ones will have ads for jobs that don't exist just to get you on their books, won't understand your qualifications and job needs and might send you to unsuitable jobs. The good ones will understand your qualifications and only put you forward for jobs that will suit you and you will suit the employer.

If you find a bad one, move on and try another, but do tell the next agency which one you were dealing with previously and what jobs they put you forward for.

ChRoMe

stevenmu wrote: »

Generally you don't have to pay them at all,

You *never* pay them, if they start looking for money its a scam.