The current state of Irish Rugby's finances

P_1

**mod edit** moving this into a new thread as I think it deserves a thread of it's own

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_8832651,00.html

Slight concern about the IRFU's finances

Part of Planet Rugby Article wrote:

The Irish Rugby Football Union has admitted it will have to borrow money to fund the professional game over the next six years.

On Saturday, the IRFU revealed a €26 million loss in projected earnings from 5 and 10-year tickets that recently went on sale for €9,000 and €5,500.

Less than half the 3,700 available tickets were sold meaning the board only managed to make €14 million after expecting to bank around €40 million.

irishbucsfan

This is a hangover of the Kidney era coupled with the Aviva stadium not really being a brilliant venue at the moment IMO.

I had a 10 year ticket. I won't be renewing it. I'm just nowhere near as excited about Irish rugby as I was when I originally bought it and the stadium's atmosphere, particularly in the premium areas where the tickets are located, just doesn't compare to other venues. I also live abroad, but I still wasn't going to renew when I was living at home.

If Schmidt comes in and brings success then hopefully more will buy next time. If that happens and that is coupled with the atmosphere in the stadium picking up, then they'll sell them all. Then I'll renew.

jm08

irishbucsfan wrote: »

This is a hangover of the Kidney era coupled with the Aviva stadium not really being a brilliant venue at the moment IMO.

I had a 10 year ticket. I won't be renewing it. I'm just nowhere near as excited about Irish rugby as I was when I originally bought it and the stadium's atmosphere, particularly in the premium areas where the tickets are located, just doesn't compare to other venues. I also live abroad, but I still wasn't going to renew when I was living at home.

If Schmidt comes in and brings success then hopefully more will buy next time. If that happens and that is coupled with the atmosphere in the stadium picking up, then they'll sell them all. Then I'll renew.

I'd say its far more likely to be as a result of the economic situation. No Banks, Developers etc. doing corporate entertainment etc.

Still, all is not lost. They can still sell them on a game-to-game basis.

Fuller explanation from IRFU website.

The Irish Rugby Football Union today presented its 2012/13 Annual Report and Accounts, reporting a 14.9 million euro surplus after taking account of a once-off 'exceptional' item of 11.5m euro.
The Union cautioned that when this €11.5m once-off item was removed its surplus declined to €3.4m compared with €7.8m last year.
In terms of operating cash-flow this has fallen from a surplus of €2.4m in 2011/12 to a deficit of €4.5m in 2012/13 after non-cash items, such as depreciation and amortised income*, were accounted for.

The Union highlighted that despite the fall in its surplus:

- Funding to Connacht, Leinster, Munster and Ulster remained static (€23.4m v €23.5m)

- Funding to representative teams, branches, clubs and schools increased (€9.5m v €9.25m)

- Representative teams grew from 7 to 8 with the introduction of Women's Sevens

Presenting the accounts, Tom Grace, Honorary Treasurer, warned of difficult times ahead. "Rugby, like every business, continues to feel the impact of the straitened financial times; as people have less money and more options on which to spend their disposable income," he said.

"While our current financial performance of €14.9m is welcome, it flatters to deceive, as it is largely due to a once-off item. Stripping this out our net operating cashflow has fallen to a deficit of €4.5m.

"It is increasingly challenging to raise the required funding to keep our provincial and domestic game adequately resourced and while the €33m spent on the provincial and domestic games are the Union's largest costs they represent an investment in the future of our game, and must be protected.

"This investment can only be sustained if rugby fans continue to support the national team.

"The most striking development of 2012/13 was the impact of the current economic climate on our ten-year ticket renewal which saw just 50% of our ten-year ticket holders renewing.

"Thankfully the Union has been conservative in its approach and we are now in a net cash position. However, as we do not have sufficient cash reserves to cover future cash deficits we now intend to borrow against future sales of ten-year tickets and corporate boxes.

"The Union will continue to develop the game but cash is tight and the support from fans is increasingly important in protecting their investment in their game.

"The entire game, be it at international, provincial, club or schools level, can only function if we continue to enjoy packed houses at the Aviva Stadium.

"If there is one thing to be learned from this financial year it is that supporting our national team at the Aviva enables the IRFU to continue to make significant funds available to professional and domestic games.""

IRFU Annual Report
Downloand the 2012/13 IRFU Annual Report

*Amortised income comprises 10-year ticket and five year box sales and naming rights income, which funded the building of the stadium (instead of bank loans). This 'income' must be accounted for over the period to which it relates and is reflected in the annual accounts despite the fact it was not actually received in the year, and has already been spent.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/29526.php

Kayless

How much does a union get if their team win's the 6 nations?

former legend

jm08 wrote: »

Still, all is not lost. They can still sell them on a game-to-game basis.

Massive financial disadvantage though.

10-year ticket for €9,000 = €900 per annum guaranteed per seat, with an average of 5.5 matches per annum* = €181 per seat per match.

The absolute maximum those seats can sell for on a game-to-game basis is €100 when England and France come to town; the NZ game in the Autumn is pitched at €75 and then the likes of Samoa or Italy are going to command significantly lower prices.

So even if it's a full-house every time (which it won't be), the IRFU is still losing out.

Hopefully the performances and results will turn around, otherwise they need to start looking at how their business model is structured.

*based on 3 Autumn internationals and 2.5 6N games.

Rightwing

jm08 wrote: »

I'd say its far more likely to be as a result of the economic situation. No Banks, Developers etc. doing corporate entertainment etc.

Still, all is not lost. They can still sell them on a game-to-game basis.

Fuller explanation from IRFU website.



http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/29526.php[/QUOTE]

Indeed, the recession is far more likely the reason than Kidney, there's only so much we cna blame him for. :rolleyes:

Kayless

former legend wrote: »

Massive financial disadvantage though.

10-year ticket for €9,000 = €900 per annum guaranteed per seat, with an average of 5.5 matches per annum* = €181 per seat per match.

The absolute maximum those seats can sell for on a game-to-game basis is €100 when England and France come to town; the NZ game in the Autumn is pitched at €75 and then the likes of Samoa or Italy are going to command significantly lower prices.

So even if it's a full-house every time (which it won't be), the IRFU is still losing out.

Hopefully the performances and results will turn around, otherwise they need to start looking at how their business model is structured.

*based on 3 Autumn internationals and 2.5 6N games.

I think an extra AI game is a must now

awec

There are probably multiple factors at play here. The tickets are premium tickets, not an area of the ground there will be much of an atmosphere. These tickets will only appeal to a certain type of fan. Plus people don't have that sort of money lying around to fork out on rugby tickets when they can usually buy them year on year.

Add to that the absolutely awful rugby Ireland have played the past number of years and it's not hard to see why these didn't sell out.

pickarooney

Why would anyone pay ten years in advance and pay twice as much as they would match by match?

Shelflife

I got the brochure for the tickets and for me the numbers just didnt stack up. I felt it was geared towards the corporate market rather than trying to show any value for money senario.

The total cost of going to a game for those of us in the sticks is rising all the time.

2 tickets to 6 nations approx €160, travel €60, hotel 1 night €100 thats €320 for one night and one game.

5 nights in Italy for the Connacht HC game and it costs €550 for two of us.

Now I realise the quality of the games are not the same, but you can see where the value for money lies.

Thats what people want now, value for money and IMO theres little value for money in a 6 nations game in the aviva.

justsomebloke

pickarooney wrote: »

Why would anyone pay ten years in advance and pay twice as much as they would match by match?

Celtic tiger era. Also you were guaranteed a ticket. So as such it was generally companies who were buying them so that they could give them to clients etc

padser

I never got that either, it just seems like an awfully stupid deal.

Paying ten years in advance and getting a discount and premium seats would make some sense.

But paying 10 year in advance and paying more money for the privilege of doing so is crazy. No one can really have thought that tickets would be THAT hard to come by!

wp_rathead

awec wrote: »

There are probably multiple factors at play here. The tickets are premium tickets, not an area of the ground there will be much of an atmosphere. These tickets will only appeal to a certain type of fan. Plus people don't have that sort of money lying around to fork out on rugby tickets when they can usually buy them year on year.

Add to that the absolutely awful rugby Ireland have played the past number of years and it's not hard to see why these didn't sell out.

That doesn't really narrow it down:p

eclipsechaser

pickarooney wrote: »

Why would anyone pay ten years in advance and pay twice as much as they would match by match?

Add to that, the tickets available were South Stand only - if you were going to delude yourself into thinking it good value, you'd want a West or East ticket. You're not even assured of being centred in the South. You could just as easily end up in one of the corners.

I imagine it's nice to be guaranteed a ticket but, at that price, you could pay eBay prices and come away with a massive saving.

phog

pickarooney wrote: »

Why would anyone pay ten years in advance and pay twice as much as they would match by match?

I could never understand why rugby people would pay for 10yr tickets, I mean anyone with contacts would surley be able to pick up a ticket and most neutrals would hardly want tickets for all games.

When Thomond Park offered them, a few lads at work went for them but I couldn't see the attraction, maybe of they had 10yr terrace thickets I might have been tempted.

irishbucsfan

eclipsechaser wrote: »

Add to that, the tickets available were South Stand only - if you were going to delude yourself into thinking it good value, you'd want a West or East ticket. You're not even assured of being centred in the South. You could just as easily end up in one of the corners.

I imagine it's nice to be guaranteed a ticket but, at that price, you could pay eBay prices and come away with a massive saving.

I have a 10 year ticket. It's on the half way line in the East Stand. It costs me more match by match but there are other things you get beyond the games themselves. Also you are assured of the exact same seat for every single game for 10 years. That is pretty great.

I'm not renewing at the moment, but not because of the cost. Just because I don't have the interest in Irish rugby I did when I bought the original tickets due to the way the team played the last 5 years. And the guys sitting around me all felt the same.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I have a 10 year ticket. It's on the half way line in the East Stand. It costs me more match by match but there are other things you get beyond the games themselves. Also you are assured of the exact same seat for every single game for 10 years. That is pretty great.

I'm not renewing at the moment, but not because of the cost. Just because I don't have the interest in Irish rugby I did when I bought the original tickets due to the way the team played the last 5 years. And the guys sitting around me all felt the same.

It's such a shame that something that seemed so obvious to so many so long ago has had this impact because those with the power to act on it didn't.

Still, we've been selling out the Aviva for the 6Ns regularly and been close to it for the AIs and RWC warm-ups so the overall impact should hopefully be relatively minimal. They'll get the guts of that money back, just not in a single lump sum.

themont85

It's a combination of the economy, other viewing options and the poor form.

If you're a corporate tightening the belt then for clients you are as well off just buying tickets one by one. Same with the individual.

There are other options; the provinces. These are just putting on a better show and are much better value.

Connected to the above the Irish team have been dreadful.

This is a disaster. The fact that there was always a good few K tickets off the market drives up the price elsewhere. We can't do that now.

The IRFU will be hoping Schmidt delivers a Slam and/or a NZ win smartish, combined with a return in the economy. Maybe the IRFU will sell a few more of these at 8 or 7 year lengths if they can. Also they will need to look at another Home game a year I reckon. Hopefully the provinces can churning more cash as well which they should really based on their growth of the past few seasons.

Swiwi.

themont85 wrote: »

It's a combination of the economy, other viewing options and the poor form.

If you're a corporate tightening the belt then for clients you are as well off just buying tickets one by one. Same with the individual.

There are other options; the provinces. These are just putting on a better show and are much better value.

Connected to the above the Irish team have been dreadful.

This is a disaster. The fact that there was always a good few K tickets off the market drives up the price elsewhere. We can't do that now.

The IRFU will be hoping Schmidt delivers a Slam and/or a NZ win smartish, combined with a return in the economy. Maybe the IRFU will sell a few more of these at 8 or 7 year lengths if they can. Also they will need to look at another Home game a year I reckon. Hopefully the provinces can churning more cash as well which they should really based on their growth of the past few seasons.

As an outsider, the problems started with the ridiculous pricing structure a while back for some of the matches, combined with not allowing Irish internationals outside of the Aviva, such that Fiji game wasn't awarded test match status. The public aren't fools, and they want to connect with the players.

danthefan

I completely believe that recession or no recession, if the team is contending for 6N championships or putting it up to the SH sides then we'll fill the stadium.

When you're losing over half your games it certainly dampens demand.

PhatPiggins

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I have a 10 year ticket. It's on the half way line in the East Stand. It costs me more match by match but there are other things you get beyond the games themselves. Also you are assured of the exact same seat for every single game for 10 years. That is pretty great.

I'm not renewing at the moment, but not because of the cost. Just because I don't have the interest in Irish rugby I did when I bought the original tickets due to the way the team played the last 5 years. And the guys sitting around me all felt the same.

Fellow sunshine fans?

You either support a team or you don't. There's no point dressing it up as some moralistic choice, just come out and say it:

"I only support Ireland when they're winning"

.ak

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Fellow sunshine fans?

You either support a team or you don't. There's no point dressing it up as some moralistic choice, just come out and say it:

"I only support Ireland when they're winning"

Well, you can still support a team without having to buy a 10 year ticket for thousands of euro. Maybe he just doesn't want to give the IRFU the cash because of what they're doing to his beloved team?

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Fellow sunshine fans?

You either support a team or you don't. There's no point dressing it up as some moralistic choice, just come out and say it:

"I only support Ireland when they're winning"

What he said was perfectly acceptable and I agree wit him 100%. The Irish national side have been dire for the last 3 years, it's no wonder people aren't willing to invest in a team losing consistently and playing boring rugby

JagerScout

i support my team and have for years doesn't mean i need to spend my hard earned and limited money on them at every opportunity.

themont85

Le vieux renard wrote: »

As an outsider, the problems started with the ridiculous pricing structure a while back for some of the matches, combined with not allowing Irish internationals outside of the Aviva, such that Fiji game wasn't awarded test match status. The public aren't fools, and they want to connect with the players.

How on earth do either of those issues have anything to do with it?

10 year ticket holders and the initial Aviva price structure is irrelevant. They had their tickets. In fact the climb down over prices and making them more affordable would have turned the heads of the 10 year people who are paying an arm and a leg for those tickets.

And the Fiji issue, odd argument, what does that have to do with it? That just seems to be a pet peeve for some.

Swiwi.

themont85 wrote: »

How on earth do either of those issues have anything to do with it?

10 year ticket holders and the initial Aviva price structure is irrelevant. They had their tickets. In fact the climb down over prices and making them more affordable would have turned the heads of the 10 year people who are paying an arm and a leg for those tickets.

And the Fiji issue, odd argument, what does that have to do with it? That just seems to be a pet peeve for some.

Ok, sorry I commented. I'll stay out of this one

Podge_irl

themont85 wrote: »

How on earth do either of those issues have anything to do with it?

10 year ticket holders and the initial Aviva price structure is irrelevant. They had their tickets. In fact the climb down over prices and making them more affordable would have turned the heads of the 10 year people who are paying an arm and a leg for those tickets.

And the Fiji issue, odd argument, what does that have to do with it? That just seems to be a pet peeve for some.

The initial price fiasco is relevant because the IRFU obviously planned on having a certain revenue per game from the new stadium and very quickly had to scale that back because they couldn't charge as much as they thought.

danthefan

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Fellow sunshine fans?

You either support a team or you don't. There's no point dressing it up as some moralistic choice, just come out and say it:

"I only support Ireland when they're winning"

You can be high and mighty as you like but I've no problem admitting I refused to pay to watch Ireland under Kidney for the last number of years. It was simply not worth the hard earned money.

justsomebloke

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Fellow sunshine fans?

You either support a team or you don't. There's no point dressing it up as some moralistic choice, just come out and say it:

"I only support Ireland when they're winning"

There is a difference between being a fan and a lemming.

If your 'team' is playing atrocious rugby and refusing to change anything, what is the point in blindly following them? Generally the only way fans can make a difference in those circumstances is to vote with their feet and not go to matches and not to put money into the organisation.

Unfortunately the IRFU seem to have refused to acknowledge the writing on the wall that was the ticketing fiasco's that first happened when we moved to the Aviva. That should have been a good indication to not budget for all the long term tickets being sold but rather then being realistic about it then just stuck their fingers in their ears and went 'lalalalalalalalala I can't hear you'.

irishbucsfan

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Fellow sunshine fans?

You either support a team or you don't. There's no point dressing it up as some moralistic choice, just come out and say it:

"I only support Ireland when they're winning"

I didn't say I don't support them. Of course I do. Just not to the extent of putting that amount of money down after the last couple of seasons.

molloyjh

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Fellow sunshine fans?

You either support a team or you don't. There's no point dressing it up as some moralistic choice, just come out and say it:

"I only support Ireland when they're winning"

You can support a side without spending a fortune on them. I still support Ireland, but for the last few years of the Kidney era I didn't go to games or buy any Irish merchandise/gear. The reason for this was that I was expressing my disappointment that the IRFU were willing to allow the team that I support to underachieve so much. It was because I gave a damn about the side that I did it. With Joe in the hot seat now I'm looking to go back to attending games and will put my objections aside for now. But I totally understand why people wouldn't be willing to pay premium prices in the current climate after being burned for doing so the last few years.