Soil Ecology

just do it

Don't know where to start and finish on this one so here goes!

Got interested in this when I noted Andy Doyle dissing the subsoiler as a cure for compaction a good few months ago. Leading on from this is the theory that modern farm practices encourage soil compaction by eliminating earthworms. Old style farmyard manure with a high content of fiborous material was of great assistance to the good auld earthworm. It helped feed him and he in turn pulled small strands of fiborous material down into the soil opening up microscopic channels and thus preventing compaction. Once soil gets compacted the earthworm finds it hard to burrow channels. Also slurry from cattle fed quality silage with little stemy fiborous material isn't as good for the earthworm and the soil structure as good auld FYM.

Then at the weekend I was talking to someone who noted years ago there was nowhere the same amount of rushes as there is now. Seemingly a practice they had when a wet spot would develop in field was to leave a pile of FYM on it for a while and then spread it. He didn't know why it worked but leading on from the argument above, FYM that has been let sit and rot is rich in earthworms. When this pile is then left on the wet, presumably compacted patch, the earthworms slowly work their way down into the soil and by the time the farmer spreads the pile they've loosened out the soil structure.

Thoughts folks? Also any good reading material, links to websites, on this topic?

bob charles

this is a never ending topic:), maybe the reason why there is more rushes nowadays is, take last year many rushes werent cut due to it being so wet, years ago man and his scythe were able to travel in all conditions to eliminate the rush. Over stocking wet ground also must be a factor with increased rushes.

just do it

Yeah the increased stocking rate must be a factor, and the time lads had years ago to care for the place.

Birdnuts

Good piece on the value of FYM in last weeks Sunday Times in terms of maintaining healthy soil texture. It helps to replace the organic matter lost due to the over application of chemical fertilizers and significantly boosts earthworm numbers. Tried to find the link just now but it appears to be behind a paywall ATM

funny man

just do it wrote: »

Don't know where to start and finish on this one so here goes!

Got interested in this when I noted Andy Doyle dissing the subsoiler as a cure for compaction a good few months ago. Leading on from this is the theory that modern farm practices encourage soil compaction by eliminating earthworms. Old style farmyard manure with a high content of fiborous material was of great assistance to the good auld earthworm. It helped feed him and he in turn pulled small strands of fiborous material down into the soil opening up microscopic channels and thus preventing compaction. Once soil gets compacted the earthworm finds it hard to burrow channels. Also slurry from cattle fed quality silage with little stemy fiborous material isn't as good for the earthworm and the soil structure as good auld FYM.

Then at the weekend I was talking to someone who noted years ago there was nowhere the same amount of rushes as there is now. Seemingly a practice they had when a wet spot would develop in field was to leave a pile of FYM on it for a while and then spread it. He didn't know why it worked but leading on from the argument above, FYM that has been let sit and rot is rich in earthworms. When this pile is then left on the wet, presumably compacted patch, the earthworms slowly work their way down into the soil and by the time the farmer spreads the pile they've loosened out the soil structure.

Thoughts folks? Also any good reading material, links to websites, on this topic?

I'd second all of the above.

just do it

Birdnuts wrote: »

Good piece on the value of FYM in last weeks Sunday Times in terms of maintaining healthy soil texture. It helps to replace the organic matter lost due to the over application of chemical fertilizers and significantly boosts earthworm numbers. Tried to find the link just now but it appears to be behind a paywall ATM

That was sunday 14th? I stopped buying the paper ages ago as it never got read. Will ask brother if he has it.

Birdnuts

just do it wrote: »

That was sunday 14th? I stopped buying the paper ages ago as it never got read. Will ask brother if he has it.

That's the one.

mf240

Always have great time for your posts just do it, but do not tip your dung in the middle of a patch of rushes as youll never be fit to load it. Great stuff to spread on rushy land though and as you say the more straw the better.

towzer2010

mf240 wrote: »

Always have great time for your posts just do it, but do not tip your dung in the middle of a patch of rushes as youll never be fit to load it. Great stuff to spread on rushy land though and as you say the more straw the better.

+1 just do it. Your posts are worth reading. I don't know why more isn't made of the benefits of earthworms.

Here is a UK study I found on them. Its interesting reading.


http://www.nuffieldinternational.org/rep_pdf/1254081899Fiona_Hillman_Nuffield_Report.pdf

delaval

We set up a greenfield dairy 8 years ago on a farm that was always tilled as far as I could remember.

Very poor mud season grass growth for first few years. All our dung and pad peelings were spread on it for first 3 years, unbelievable the difference.
Note post peelings heaped and turned twice then spread the following year pure compost, really super stuff full of worms.

blue5000

I'd say compaction is affecting all the life in the soil. not just earthworms. If you have time, google biochar, the pores in charcoal mixed with soil provide shelter for soil organisms.

bob charles

delaval wrote: »

We set up a greenfield dairy 8 years ago on a farm that was always tilled as far as I could remember.

Very poor mud season grass growth for first few years. All our dung and pad peelings were spread on it for first 3 years, unbelievable the difference.
Note post peelings heaped and turned twice then spread the following year pure compost, really super stuff full of worms.

the first few tons of FYM or thousand gallons of slurry make some difference to land that never saw any before. from there on the kick will be allot smaller. I hated the sight of pad peelings as it locks up so much N its not funny. Little and often is the way to go with organic matters. Never would I apply over 3k gls of slurry ac as in the long term you will make crap of ground

keep going

all this dung is grand but where is the straw going to come from -after all it should also be put back into the ground it came from .so all you are suggesting is that we all should have a percentage of tillage and in practice would be a great idea but financially and phisically just complicates a system and would lower the returns on farms(are farmers going to gear up for tillage as well as grass and would contractors be interested in small blocks/small fields.as for that Sunday times article:rolleyes:

delaval

bob charles wrote: »

the first few tons of FYM or thousand gallons of slurry make some difference to land that never saw any before. from there on the kick will be allot smaller. I hated the sight of pad peelings as it locks up so much N its not funny. Little and often is the way to go with organic matters. Never would I apply over 3k gls of slurry ac as in the long term you will make crap of ground

If pad peelings allowed to decompose there ain't much better. Must be stored for 1 year and turned at least once

Muckit

Hi JDI.

I'm no botanist or entomologist , be I would think that the mole plough/subsoiler would be good to encourage earthworms etc.

RE straw/organic matter, yes I think many farms have lost this aspect that would have been on every farm, even small farms say 50years ago. Every farm had maybe 2-5 acres of tillage and had the straw for bedding, which subsequently got spread back on the land.

Rotation of crops and hence tilling of the ground happened on most parts of a farm. This too was good for looking after the soil.

Saving hay rather than silage also helped with self seeding of meadows pre1960s.

Machines and horse drawn implements left practically zero footprint on the land and so compaction would not have been an issue.

There is a case for every livestock farmer to buy in and bed a proportion of his stock on straw. Rather than looking on it as an unnecessary expense, it should be looked upon as a vital necessity. The biggest obstacle I see to this suggestion is the time spent bedding down in the winter. The hardship associated with 'mucking out' is gone with the advent of the front loader. No agitation required either and smell is less of an issue.

Bring a bucket of slurry to any gardener and they would laugh at you,a barrow of FYM and you are a God. There has to be something to it.

pakalasa

I think soil compaction has a lot to do with it. With heavier machinery and wider wheels, even though there is no rutting, the damage to the soil goes a lot deeper.


You see it in the pic above. Heavier machines and wider tyres and the reaction goes even deeper again.
Our little friend, the dung beetle did his bit too, but I think Ivermectin wiped him out too.

just do it

delaval wrote: »

We set up a greenfield dairy 8 years ago on a farm that was always tilled as far as I could remember.

Very poor mud season grass growth for first few years. All our dung and pad peelings were spread on it for first 3 years, unbelievable the difference.
Note post peelings heaped and turned twice then spread the following year pure compost, really super stuff full of worms.

How's the pad working out delaval? They get a lot of bad press. A friend has a sand ring for ponies that has turned into a turn-out area for cows. A nice few have calved down on it with no issues. Doesn't look the cleanest but no issues with the likes of swollen navels etc.

just do it

keep going wrote: »

all this dung is grand but where is the straw going to come from -after all it should also be put back into the ground it came from .so all you are suggesting is that we all should have a percentage of tillage and in practice would be a great idea but financially and phisically just complicates a system and would lower the returns on farms(are farmers going to gear up for tillage as well as grass and would contractors be interested in small blocks/small fields.as for that Sunday times article:rolleyes:

I've no tillage and no intention of going that route. Currently I've have a bit of FYM from the creep area of the shed, yet to be cleaned out! I'm thinking of piling it and spraying it with slurry the next time slurry is going out. Like delaval, leave it sit to rot and spread next year.

I'm not suggesting tillage, far from it. But I do buy in straw for bedding and feeding the cows in the 6 weeks pre-calving. That made the slurry hard to agitate and meant there was plenty organic matter hitting the field.

As opposed to lower returns, I see it increasing returns. One of the drivers of compaction is poor soil texture. This lowers returns. The organic matter in FYM through its rotted fibre content (straw or hay) helps prevent the compaction in the first place.

At some stage in the future I'll need more housing and if you see FYM as a resource the addition of bedded areas now become an asset rather than a liability.

keep going

but tillage farmers shouldnt be allowed to sell straw by rights if they want to protect their soil so how are you going to get all your land with dung on it.its one of these things thats sounds great in theory but in practice is not workable on a lot of livestock farms

just do it

keep going wrote: »

but tillage farmers shouldnt be allowed to sell straw by rights if they want to protect their soil

Until that regulation comes in there will be a plentiful source of straw

just do it

towzer2010 wrote: »

+1 just do it. Your posts are worth reading. I don't know why more isn't made of the benefits of earthworms.

Here is a UK study I found on them. Its interesting reading.


http://www.nuffieldinternational.org/rep_pdf/1254081899Fiona_Hillman_Nuffield_Report.pdf

Ah shucks towzer, I'm blushing here .

That is a great paper you've posted. The conclusions were interesting enough to entice me to read the whole thing. A bit more to out than just earthworms

just do it

mf240 wrote: »

Always have great time for your posts just do it, but do not tip your dung in the middle of a patch of rushes as youll never be fit to load it. Great stuff to spread on rushy land though and as you say the more straw the better.

Thanks mf240. I've to say I've been a bit confused by your post but now I think I've it figured out. Don't drop the dung on the rushes to compost, dump it on solid ground where you can go back and load it. Then when it has composted spread away.

just do it

Muckit wrote: »

Hi JDI.

I'm no botanist or entomologist , be I would think that the mole plough/subsoiler would be good to encourage earthworms etc.

RE straw/organic matter, yes I think many farms have lost this aspect that would have been on every farm, even small farms say 50years ago. Every farm had maybe 2-5 acres of tillage and had the straw for bedding, which subsequently got spread back on the land.

Rotation of crops and hence tilling of the ground happened on most parts of a farm. This too was good for looking after the soil.

Saving hay rather than silage also helped with self seeding of meadows pre1960s.

Machines and horse drawn implements left practically zero footprint on the land and so compaction would not have been an issue.

There is a case for every livestock farmer to buy in and bed a proportion of his stock on straw. Rather than looking on it as an unnecessary expense, it should be looked upon as a vital necessity. The biggest obstacle I see to this suggestion is the time spent bedding down in the winter. The hardship associated with 'mucking out' is gone with the advent of the front loader. No agitation required either and smell is less of an issue.

Bring a bucket of slurry to any gardener and they would laugh at you,a barrow of FYM and you are a God. There has to be something to it.

We're on a similar wavelength here Muckit. I'm starting to think the straw bedded area for the creep has huge potential value. This is from a position where I saw it as a pain. I've also being pondering how best to deal with my housing requirement for the expanding herd. I'll get away with this winter, but only just. I've always liked the idea of an outdoor pad but they seem to have given huge problems. I'm thinking of using my concrete holding yard as a pad for cows that are near calving and freshly calved. Currently I've no option at times but to throw young calves in on slats before they're old enough to figure out the creep gate back into the creep area. And they seem to pick that up quickly by around 5 days old. I'm rightly screwed this winter should I have any more than one sick animal at a time!

One point of many from the excellent article towzer has put up is the C:N ratio of soil. Composted organic matter provides the Carbon. In modern intestive systems feeding top quality silage made from leafy grass there is little C in the slurry. Without this the soil has trouble retaining it's structure and therefore compacts more easily. Earhworms then grab these fibre particles and pull them down into the soil and even into the clay subsoil layer. They in turn bring back up valuable nutiernts to the surface. I always thought machinery's role in compaction has been overplayed as I've sections that are suffering from compaction that have had little heavy machinery travel on them. How I think of it is poor soil texture is like concrete whereas good soild texture is like reinforced concrete. Due to the reinforcement it is better able to withstand force exerted on it.

The one thing I've stated before and will state again is I disagree with subsoiling. Sure it will loosen up the top 1 foot of soil but directly underneath the subsoiler the soil is being compacted creating a pan that water will have difficulty permeating down through. When my diggerman was in I had him re do some trenches he had cleaned up to get some extra depth i.e. increase from 2/4 ft to 4/6ft. He thought I was crazy but did it. A wise old man once told me the trick with trenches is to go as deep as you can. Low and behold in the 3 trenches he went deeper we hit water. That water is still flowing after this dry period. God only knows how far it is coming and ultimately how far away underground it is draining from! So why use an implement that will create a pan only 12 or 18 inches below the surface?!

kevthegaff

Charles Darwin's favourite creature was the earthworm. He left rocks and stones of varies sizes in his back field for 30 years, Most of them were gone as the earthworms through agitating the soil covered them. I hate seeing lads saturate slurry on land and all thats left is a heap of dead worms and serious compaction:mad:

beef burger

good thread j.d.i. makes alot of sense in my view let the worms do the work how long would it take roughly for muck to rot into the soil.

just do it

beef burger wrote: »

good thread j.d.i. makes alot of sense in my view let the worms do the work how long would it take roughly for muck to rot into the soil.

I believe the idea is you rot it before applying it to the soil. Delaval seemed to have it right. Leave stand for plenty time and turn occasionally.

just do it

Extract from: Pasture Utilisation: yield from the field

Before hitching up to some fancy expensive machine to sort out your compaction problem, attach yourself to an inexpensive spade and dig a few holes. Identify how deep the issue is before you waste your time and money carrying out a procedure which might make [FONT=Calibri,Calibri][FONT=Calibri,Calibri]you [/FONT][/FONT]feel better but achieves nothing. Identify the problem and use the correct implement/procedure to rectify it.

I was shocked in NZ to find that little Jersey crossbreds had actually compacted a field three times as much as 5 passes of a 3 ton
vibrating roller. Every time the field was grazed the grass in a fenced-off area was cut and then given the roller treatment, yet this failed to replicate the same level of compaction that the cows had created.

Conmaicne Mara

towzer2010 wrote: »

+1 just do it. Your posts are worth reading. I don't know why more isn't made of the benefits of earthworms.

Here is a UK study I found on them. Its interesting reading.


http://www.nuffieldinternational.org/rep_pdf/1254081899Fiona_Hillman_Nuffield_Report.pdf

That's an extremely interesting report, I only got the chance to read it last night.

just do it

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

That's an extremely interesting report, I only got the chance to read it last night.

Food for thought alright. Have a look at gareth davies report as well from the nuffield website. It's called something like improving your pasture yield.

Conmaicne Mara

Oops! It was the Gareth Davies one I meant to link to!

just do it

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Oops! It was the Gareth Davies one I meant to link to!

Ah ha, your study isn't finished yet

pakalasa

Might be cheaper than normal drainage.:D

gazahayes

Here's a product from France supposed to help the soil have a small bit trialled here still early to tell yet.
http://www.bacteriosol-sobac.com/index-eng.php

airneal

Well you see the earthworm likes a fairly neutral soil pH. So that's why they don't like slurry. Slurry also infiltrates the soils channels, starving them of oxygen. Thats why sometimes you seen dead worms lying on the soil surface, in both pasture and arable, after slurry application.

Not sure about the FYM on top of rushes. Sure theres' going to be a poor soil structure developing with rushes growing anyway. When you see rushes, you see water, so inevitable will see poor soil structure, soil pH becoming acidic, low earthworm numbers, because of poor aeration and acidic conditions, nutrient run-off & leaching, poaching and compaction.

Also the earthworm which is found in dung, consists really of two species, the Tiger worm being one of them. They don't really add to enhancing the soil etc. They really only decompose the FYM.

My advice, sort your drainage out first, then improve your ground with the FYM, earthworms will eventually enhance the soil structure, aeration, drainage, C/N ration, assimilate soil N and release nutrients for plant/crop growth when ALL soil conditions are favourable.

One important note, earthworms rely on a myriad of soil conditions to be right!!

just do it wrote: »

Don't know where to start and finish on this one so here goes!

Got interested in this when I noted Andy Doyle dissing the subsoiler as a cure for compaction a good few months ago. Leading on from this is the theory that modern farm practices encourage soil compaction by eliminating earthworms. Old style farmyard manure with a high content of fiborous material was of great assistance to the good auld earthworm. It helped feed him and he in turn pulled small strands of fiborous material down into the soil opening up microscopic channels and thus preventing compaction. Once soil gets compacted the earthworm finds it hard to burrow channels. Also slurry from cattle fed quality silage with little stemy fiborous material isn't as good for the earthworm and the soil structure as good auld FYM.

Then at the weekend I was talking to someone who noted years ago there was nowhere the same amount of rushes as there is now. Seemingly a practice they had when a wet spot would develop in field was to leave a pile of FYM on it for a while and then spread it. He didn't know why it worked but leading on from the argument above, FYM that has been let sit and rot is rich in earthworms. When this pile is then left on the wet, presumably compacted patch, the earthworms slowly work their way down into the soil and by the time the farmer spreads the pile they've loosened out the soil structure.

Thoughts folks? Also any good reading material, links to websites, on this topic?

just do it

Can't fault you there Airneal. The two nuffield articles linked in this thread are directly applicable to good dry land. What I like about them is they're written from a layman's perspective.

AS you point out, drainage for most farmers is the first most critical step.

airneal

Its interesting to note that the value of earthworms to soil is unknown. Although some have said it contributes over 700 million euro to Irish farmers interms of what they do... points already listed.

I feel myself that earthworm are as important and if not more important than the fertiliser you apply to the land. OK you need both to be there to compliment each other for the farm to be productive. But the value of earthworms particularly in arable systems is unknown, but I would say its right up there.

just do it wrote: »

Can't fault you there Airneal. The two nuffield articles linked in this thread are directly applicable to good dry land. What I like about them is they're written from a layman's perspective.

AS you point out, drainage for most farmers is the first most critical step.

kowtow

just do it wrote: »

keep going wrote: »

but tillage farmers shouldnt be allowed to sell straw by rights if they want to protect their soil

Until that regulation comes in there will be a plentiful source of straw

The Amish, if I recall - who are among the most profitable farmers in America, used to love buying in Straw from tillage farmers. They saw it a straight export of fertility from the tillage farm to their own, and cheap at any price.

If you have a moment it's worth reading Gene Lodgson's book - "Holy sh**" - on the subject of manure and the proper way to handle it, plenty of dairy specific comparisons with slurry, tanks and the like. He would go straw bedded all the way I think - although I suspect he would also simply steer clear of today's concentrated herds.

Deep bedding and keeping the straw in the shed until the last minute the following autumn is - I think - his best recipe for returning fertility to the field.

MacraPat

Soil ecology seems to be so badly neglected by the farming practices at large today.
I've come across this video of a guy by the name of Greg Judy.
He's a suckler beef, sheep and pig farmer all grass based. He implements the Holistic management principles made famous by Allan Savory but on an extreme scale where he claims to be grazing 60% of the standing sward, trampling 30% and leaving 10% standing. His entire paddocks are converted into composting wormeries, the worms pulling dead,trampled litter into the topsoil. Most interestingly, Greg Judy outwinters his cattle on forage, only occasionally supplementing them hay.

I hope ye can see the connection I'm making here, it's wacky stuff but thought provoking the same way.

airneal

Observations on Greg Judy, I only passively listened to him. Stoppping here and there, but didn't take me long to trip him up.... he misses the basic points of farming.

See - False beliefs "Short grass fat cattle thats hogwash" @ 1:02:50 he quotes

He doesn't realise that short grass has the highest level of nitrogen, which is transferable into beef and lamb.

Also in relation to his sward or pastures, they are dominated by clover species in almost every photo or screenshot. We all know the benefits of clover, rhizobium bacteria, nitrogen fixation etc.

He doesn't seem to make the connection also that earthworms and clover species are directly correlated. That is that high clover dominated pastures, supports high earthworms, based on the addition of high value organic matter (clover plant form) to the soil. And also the benefit of high nitrogen fixing plant material (clover species) being converted to beef or lamb.

This Greg lad is a real spewfer, treat his story with real caution.....ooh yea cowboy!!!:eek:

MacraPat wrote: »

Soil ecology seems to be so badly neglected by the farming practices at large today.
I've come across this video of a guy by the name of Greg Judy.
He's a suckler beef, sheep and pig farmer all grass based. He implements the Holistic management principles made famous by Allan Savory but on an extreme scale where he claims to be grazing 60% of the standing sward, trampling 30% and leaving 10% standing. His entire paddocks are converted into composting wormeries, the worms pulling dead,trampled litter into the topsoil. Most interestingly, Greg Judy outwinters his cattle on forage, only occasionally supplementing them hay.

I hope ye can see the connection I'm making here, it's wacky stuff but thought provoking the same way.