Degree Results

lethaleagal

Does anyone know if I can use this to up my grade. My University gave mebelow a first, and I cannot now get into a renowned college in America.

The thing is, we were never ever told about the grades system for the degreeitself. All it says on the degree information website is your second year willbe combined with your final, if it is to the students advantage... This to meis not clear.

I received results, only from final year as they were a little higher thansecond. I thought along with everyone else for three years that the gradeswould be combined, say 6 of the best subjects from 2nd year and 5 from final orvise versa, I had even asked faculty and the above information in the brochurewas repeated. No caveats just will be combined. My question after thinking thisfor 3 years is do I have an argument (not a case yet) to threaten them withjudicial review through legitimate expectation? My argument is if I had knownthey were only going to take from final year because it was higher, then Iwould have left my job, and stopped representing and volunteering for all sortsof uni events and causes.

lawfilly

Depending on the College in question you may not even have standing for Judicial review let alone an argument for legitimate expectation.

Rajah v Royal College of surgeons

Quinn v Kings Inns.

lethaleagal

Well it was the National University Ireland, does this make a difference?

lawfilly

It may still be difficult to get leave for a JR against an NUI even if it is in receipt of public funding.

You should speak to the University first and see what their stance is on reviewing your grades.

Then seek proper legal advise if not satisfied. Legitimate expectation is a difficult ground to plead in any case.

lethaleagal

Thank you, as I wrote in my first thread I do not intend in taking the case as of yet, but I am writing to the dean to state my case, and I did not want to be bringing up something that I couldn't actually use.

johnnyskeleton

lethaleagal wrote: »

Thank you, as I wrote in my first thread I do not intend in taking the case as of yet, but I am writing to the dean to state my case, and I did not want to be bringing up something that I couldn't actually use.

Some free advice is dont threaten to do something that you don't fully understand. Speak to a solicitor before you do anything else.

lethaleagal

I do understand it. I just completed an exam in it, what I am trying to figure out is how well would this go down with the University. Will they say it's my fault now or will they recoil and change their unclear process of how they actually grade your degree.

LowKeyReturn

lethaleagal wrote: »

I do understand it. I just completed an exam in it, what I am trying to figure out is how well would this go down with the University. Will they say it's my fault now or will they recoil and change their unclear process of how they actually grade your degree.

You've done one exam on Admin law amongst a few others, believe me when I say, speaking from personal experience, it's very easy to be a big headed eejit and actually have very little clue what you're talking about.

The University is very unlikely to change their policy, firstly because it would possibly open them up to all sorts of claims, secondly because they're doing the same as most institutions. It's understandable that you're angry but having a tantrum about it isn't going to help you, in-fact quite the opposite. If you really, genuinely believe you've been wronged quietly go to a solicitor and take it from there.

Cody Pomeray

Is it just me or does the process actually not sound that un-clear? I suppose the exact wording of the brochure is relevant.

I don't think the University's position is remotely irrational either. In fact, I would suggest that a system such as the OP believed was in place would, if it were true, undermine the standing of an academic degree granted by an institution of the NUI.

chops018

Not to be smart at all, but, did it ever occur to you that the grades were done correctly and you just simply didn't do enough to get a first. They are very rare.

Unless you are, or were, in a spat with the lecturers then they will do their best for you if you put in the work. They don't not want to give you a first, there is no personal vendetta against you.

I'm just saying the above because we can all get upset/angry when we don't get what we expect, and the main thing is to not lose the head and go in saying this and that and making threats. But hey not always getting what we want, yeah well that's life, there is gonna be a hell of a lot more of it to come! Take the chip off your shoulder, work hard and be be happy with what you get. If you're unhappy still, then as has been suggested go to a Solicitor, there must be some sort of procedure for your concerns?

As a side suggestion maybe do a masters and work hard for a first in that? That should ensure your entrance into a top American college.

lethaleagal

I am not having a tatrum as it has been implied. I am a level headed guy, who feels that there is no right for redress for appeal on the whole grade itself. Instead I would have to pay €60 per module, consodering I do not agree with the system as whole this would equate to the appeal of 22 modules through sec and final years.

I just feel it has to be addressed. I don't actually want to involve solicitors. This is what the brochure says, there is no other information provided.

Honours are awarded at the end of the Final Year on the performance of candidates in the examinations of the Final Year or, if it is to the student's advantage, on the results of the Second Year and Final Year Examinations combined.

Mine were just final year, considering I did well in second year I was under the impression that they would be combined, and because they were not I cannot get into a college I had a conditional offer for and feel let down, not having a tatrum I think anyone would feel this way

Bigdeadlydave

Talk to the lecturers and go from there

chops018

lethaleagal wrote: »

Mine were just final year, considering I did well in second year I was under the impression that they would be combined, and because they were not I cannot get into a college I had a conditional offer for and feel let down, not having a tatrum I think anyone would feel this way

Did you contact the college?

You may still be accepted with a high 2:1. They have to conditionally offer you a place subject to a first incase there are an unprecedented number of applicants all with firsts. This however, is rarely the case.

CSSE09

Google <college name> marks and standards, it'll all be laid out in there how the degree grade is calculated.

Cody Pomeray

But lethaleagal surely your request goes further than what you're quoting from the brochure.

I mean if your overall grade this year was greater than your overall grade last year, it cannot mathematically be to your advantage to combine the two years' grades.

The only way it can be to your advantage is if you are asking the University to take greater account of your second year grades than your final year grades, which seems to go beyond what is stated in the excerpt that you have quoted.

Again, I think it would be irrational if the University were to operate in this way, and i don't think you could have had a legitimate expectation of that outcome just from reading the brochure, although you did say you also spoke to some of the staff.

EbanEmael

lethaleagal wrote: »

Does anyone know if I can use this to up my grade. My University gave mebelow a first, and I cannot now get into a renowned college in America.

The thing is, we were never ever told about the grades system for the degreeitself. All it says on the degree information website is your second year willbe combined with your final, if it is to the students advantage... This to meis not clear.

I received results, only from final year as they were a little higher thansecond. I thought along with everyone else for three years that the gradeswould be combined, say 6 of the best subjects from 2nd year and 5 from final orvise versa, I had even asked faculty and the above information in the brochurewas repeated. No caveats just will be combined. My question after thinking thisfor 3 years is do I have an argument (not a case yet) to threaten them withjudicial review through legitimate expectation? My argument is if I had knownthey were only going to take from final year because it was higher, then Iwould have left my job, and stopped representing and volunteering for all sortsof uni events and causes.

You sat an exam and got the results your scripts merited?
Your complaint is that you didn't understand their grading system.
It was up to you to check that out. There is no reason you couldn't have asked around in your faculty and made sure. The first duty of a lawyer is research and making it your business to read small print and not rely on impressions or hunches. Unless they haven't properly carried out the grading you have no real complaint. You should write to the faculty and show what grade you think you should have got and why and see what response they give you.

FEfuns

lethaleagal wrote: »

Honours are awarded at the end of the Final Year on the performance of candidates in the examinations of the Final Year or, if it is to the student's advantage, on the results of the Second Year and Final Year Examinations combined.

Mine were just final year, considering I did well in second year I was under the impression that they would be combined, and because they were not I cannot get into a college I had a conditional offer for and feel let down, not having a tatrum I think anyone would feel this way

The first paragraph above is a quote from the University's marks and standards. I'm almost certain I know what college this is, as the wording looks identical to way in which our grades were calculated.

The language is totally clear. If you got a 70% average mark in your Final Year exams, and 60% in your Second Year exams, you can elect to take the 70% as your overall degree result, or combine the 70% and 60% to get an overall degree result of 65%.

It's totally clear so you should really just not bother with writing to the Dean etc. Hard luck, but move on.

LowKeyReturn

My apologies I did not mean to sound insulting in either of my posts.

I have to be 100% honest and say what you have now described, in a much clearer manner than your OP, is pretty self explanatory. Ironically I made the same assumption about my grades. I asked for clarification with head of School and she very kindly pointed out the error of my assumptions. As Cody has pointed out cherry picking the topics would undermine the degree.

On a related note there was an article recently which, reading between the lines, called into question the amount of firsts DCU were handing out.

LowKeyReturn

FEfuns wrote: »

The first paragraph above is a quote from the University's marks and standards. I'm almost certain I know what college this is, as the wording looks identical to way in which our grades were calculated.

I was certain it was GCD as that's the way ours are worked out through Nottingham Trent - until the OP pointed out it was NUI. :P

johnnyskeleton

lethaleagal wrote: »

I do understand it. I just completed an exam in it, what I am trying to figure out is how well would this go down with the University. Will they say it's my fault now or will they recoil and change their unclear process of how they actually grade your degree.

Meaning no disrespect to you, I don't think you understand judicial review to the level that a practicing solicitor would understand it, and as such it is unwise to threaten it without at very least speaking to a solicitor about the prospects of success.

johnnyskeleton

lethaleagal wrote: »

I am not having a tatrum as it has been implied. I am a level headed guy, who feels that there is no right for redress for appeal on the whole grade itself. Instead I would have to pay €60 per module, consodering I do not agree with the system as whole this would equate to the appeal of 22 modules through sec and final years.

€60 per module, while a lot of money, is still cheaper than a jr.

Mine were just final year, considering I did well in second year I was under the impression that they would be combined, and because they were not I cannot get into a college I had a conditional offer for and feel let down, not having a tatrum I think anyone would feel this way

I thought you said you did better in final year than in second year? So combining the results would lower your average rather than increase it, no?

LowKeyReturn

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

€60 per module, while a lot of money, is still cheaper than a jr.

It's exceptionally reasonable. GCD charge in excess of €100 per exam just to re-add up the bloody marks! I know other institutions are even less generous than that. NUI = Bargain OP

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I thought you said you did better in final year than in second year? So combining the results would lower your average rather than increase it, no?

He's assumed, as I did, that they'd cherry pick.

BornToKill

Until someone develops a mind scanner or some such futuristic device which can scientifically determine how much a person has learned and retained from a course of study, exams will regrettably but inevitably remain an intrinsic part of assessing the performance of a student on a degree course.

That being so, it is essential that any student who wants to achieve the best result they possibly can be fully conversant with the way the subjects they are studying are examined and with how the exams are marked. Knowing the basis on which awards are made is as important as knowing the subject material, unless the pure acquisition of knowledge is the only thing of interest to the student. This is reasonably obvious but is also too late in this instance where the OP has completed a degree without being crystal clear on what he or she needed to achieve in order to attain a first class honours degree.

At this stage, requesting a recheck is probably the best option if the marks achieved fall just short of those required. With (currently) a 2:1 degree in law, the OP must be aware of the difficulties in successfully challenging the process by way of Judicial Review. Quite apart from the not insubstantial question of establishing that the relevant institution is capable of being subject to judicial review on this matter, the challenger would have to show a legitimate expectation as this appears to be the grounds on which a review would be sought. A mere expectation, even one genuinely held, is not sufficient.

So a JR could well boil down to the grounds on which the expectation is held. In deciding that, the particulars will be all-important: who said what to whom, when, and in what format. If, for example, a letter exists from the Dean or the President of the educational institution confirming the student's flawed understanding of the calculation process then that would be strongly supportive of a legitimate expectation. On the other hand, a half recalled two minute question and answer with a lecturer in a hallway outside of class where the parties have contradicting recollections of what was said would be less supportive.

If the OP has evidence of representations made to him or her which led to a legitimate expectation then these, plus anything else of relevance (and this includes the bad with the good) should be presented to a solicitor for a legal opinion as to the feasibility of taking JR proceedings. In my experience, simply mentioning judicial review to a university or a government body will not cause it to quake in its boots and to up-end established practise. They get both threatened with and actually judicially reviewed too often for it to hold much terror. I don't have statistics but would think that most are routinely defeated.

LegallyAbroad

lethaleagal wrote: »

I am not having a tatrum as it has been implied. I am a level headed guy, who feels that there is no right for redress for appeal on the whole grade itself. Instead I would have to pay €60 per module, consodering I do not agree with the system as whole this would equate to the appeal of 22 modules through sec and final years.

I just feel it has to be addressed. I don't actually want to involve solicitors. This is what the brochure says, there is no other information provided.

Honours are awarded at the end of the Final Year on the performance of candidates in the examinations of the Final Year or, if it is to the student's advantage, on the results of the Second Year and Final Year Examinations combined.

Mine were just final year, considering I did well in second year I was under the impression that they would be combined, and because they were not I cannot get into a college I had a conditional offer for and feel let down, not having a tatrum I think anyone would feel this way

Where did you get this idea of a la carte module selection for results?

That clearly means that either your results will be your final year average, or if it is to your advantage, a mixture of your 3rd yead and 4th year averages.

You didn't understand the brochure, didn't bother to check before your results came out, and now you haven't got sufficently good grades for a 1st.

I'd say threaten JR all you want, they'll laugh you out of the building.

LegalEagleCork

I haven't looked at all the comments and didn't go to nuI but just a couple of suggestions-

1Make sure you address the student hand book if you have one, usually calculation of results is quite mathematical and the handbook will usually outline the relevant equations, I got very confused with these for my own masters and ended up emailing an administrator for clarity, maybe a meeting with an administrator to gain some clarity might be worthwhile

2. Also go through the rules, sometimes it is at the discretion of a board/ faculty to award a 1.1 if you're borderline, discretion being the operative word

3. if you're still dissatisfied-Retain copies of email assurances that your original understanding of the marking system was correct- I would imagine they're vital to your case,

4. I think the general rule is to exhaust the internal mechanisms of appeal first but I could be wrong and if you're 1.1 is of vital importance to you it might be good to consult citizens information, or the Flac helpline for some reliable guidance before you make any formal move or correspondence, if you do decide to take a case and if you're low on funds you may be eligible for civil legal aid, you can check that with a simple phone call

Best of luck and I know you may not want to hear this but for what its worth, I got a 1.1 and looking around comparing me to my friends, 1.1, 2.1 or pass genuinely doesn't matter so much, my 1.1 certainly didn't make anything easier, if anything it led to unrealistic expectations to land interviews and jobs, but I invariably didn't, its what you do with your degree after, how you cope with your life circumstances, your ultimate determination to build your career and the person you become that counts! Hope this helps.

Cody Pomeray

LegalEagleCork wrote: »

3. if you're still dissatisfied-Retain copies of email assurances that your original understanding of the marking system was correct- I would imagine they're vital to your case,

The problem is the OP says that staff simply repeated the terms of the brochure.

But the terms of the brochure don't appear to capture what the OP (I suggest irrationally) believed the situation was.

I completely agree with the rest of the post, but I think this point is important and it seems to remove the OP of any standing.