Losing feeling in hands & feet on longer swims?

Foyler

Putting this in here because the swimming forum has tumbleweeds blowing through it, I do the odd sprint tri and well I'm sure its relevant to some of the full Ironmen/women.

Been building up the distances over the last few years towards a swim from Inisbofin to Cleggan (9k) in Connemara which we are planning for the beginning of August.
I retired from rugby 3 years back at 14 stone with already low body fat but due to all the mileage on the bike and water, I've dropped 2 stone so have really low body fat now.

I've a good suit but generally leave the socks and hood behind this time of year and have been losing the feeling in my hands and feet after about an hour & 1/2.
Did 6k today in a warm sheltered bay and was fine but the water will be a fair bit colder out at the island and we'll be in the water for 3+ hours.

I can live with the feet as they're mostly just drafting but the hands are a real problem, I've tried flexing them on the recovery but its one more thing to think of ( relax arms, head & neck, rotate, glide, catch, high elbow on pull & recovery, breathing, etc etc:rolleyes: )and is far from an instinct at this stage meaning it can knock me out of the 'zone'.

Should I accept I'm a big girls blouse and wear socks & hood, will it help much?
Tried gloves in the Winter and hated them & its cheating.
All suggestions much appreciated!

Oryx

Can't help you out but I'd be interested in the replies, I have such poor circulation that I've sometimes still had numb feet starting the run in a tri - three hours after the swim.

Gloves (and usually boots) are banned in tri.

zico10

This guy's site was recommended here a while back for some other reason, but his articles on cold water swimming are well worth a read as well.

http://loneswimmer.com/2013/05/21/cold-water-swimming-articles-index/

Foyler

zico10 wrote: »

This guy's site was recommended here a while back for some other reason, but his articles on cold water swimming are well worth a read as well.

http://loneswimmer.com/2013/05/21/cold-water-swimming-articles-index/

Great link zico thanks, fascinating reading which I'll be working my way through over the next while.
I think the post about how using Total Immersion technique's in cold water can lead to hypothermic issues somewhat offers an answer.

I've been watching the TI videos this year and been trying to adopt some of the techniques, ie long glide, low cadence which he suggests is a Baaaad idea in cold water.

In a strange coincidence I was feeling very good yesterday for that 6k swim and decided to go as hard as I could with a stroke rate that I'd normally use for 1-2k, as mentioned previously I had no cold issues and was a damn site faster which is great!

Still might need the neo cap though but I'll try some different combo's over the next 10 days.

ShineyShiney

I don't know how to stop it but here's a few things ive tried.

Double hat to stop heat loss.
Deep heat on feet prior to swim
Grease feet (Vaseline or similar)
Extra layer under suit
Bring energy source (gel) tucked into suit somewhere
Flex toes often
Swim faster :-)

Boffin to cleggan sounds like a great swim, good luck.

DonalB

Thanks for the nod to the blog again guys. Let me be clear as I can. I know of NO experienced open water swimmer who uses Total Immersion or who advocates its use. TI has uses in some of its drills as part of regular technique sessions but like many thinks TI is a triumph of marketing over content.

My own criticism puts safety as the most important concern, because our waters are cold. (Though deeper water temperatures on the south coast were 19C this weekend, which is unprecedented IME).

TI teaches you to focus on lesser aspects of stroke. The propulsive aspect of stroke is the pull phase (85%). TI de-emphasises the very important Catch and Pull in favour of glide but glide is by its nature a decelerating motion.

Swimming is combination of all aspects and phases, not just one. In a choice between glide and stroke rate, I would always choose stroke rate. In the Channel swims or any other long swim I've been involved in from swimming or crewing every swimmer can keep their stroke rate constant over the entire swim. Long distance swimmers are by definition most interested in efficiency and thermogenesis (staying warm).

Foyler

Hey Donal,

Love the site/blog and thanks a million for adding your thoughts here, I know we're only lightweights in our suits so appreciate you taking the time.

One of the issues I have is that one of the 3 swimmers doing it has a very relaxed and graceful stroke and as we swim together a bit I've been trying to match it.
However having talked about it more in the last few days we've realised that trying to stay together is a bad idea as its just a distraction trying to figure out if your dropping someone or holding them back.

I'd have a higher aerobic base from all the cycling and rugby training over the years so I'm going to go with what feels right and more importantly thermogenisis (My new word for the day!).

Any thoughts on what kind of sustenance we'll need. Was thinking a mahooosive bowl of porridge with fruit & honey for the slow release qualities before the swim and then maybe after an hour taking a gel or banana every half hour or so. Then just calling on the boat when we need some fluids given the heat.

zico10

Sort of going off on a tangent here, but anywho...

I actually enrolled and took part in one of Total Immersion's workshops in Dublin a good few years ago. It wasn't cheap and afterwards I devoted a hell of a lot of time to the few simple drills, that for me at least are the mainstay of the TI method. I'd be hesitant to just outright say something doesn't work, but for the money and time I devoted to it, I saw very poor returns for my investment.

DonalB

Hey Foyler,

Cheers. Boffin is what, 9K, plus wobble room, so say three hours, three hours plus. The body normally has enough glycogen for fuel for about two and half to three hours exertion, stored mostly in the liver, some in the blood. That can be depleted by regular heavy training but a couple of days of normal eating is sufficient to recover. So you need less than you think. Depending on how you want to approach it you could feed after each hour, or just feed after about 2 hours. You can only take in about 280 calories per hour, regardless of body size and exercise, swimming without a wetsuit in the sea burns about 800 calories per hour. Since you'll be in a wetsuit the maths would say that two full feeds will have you do the swim and finishing without entering kethosis. A full feed is usually somewhere around 700 ml of water plus carb, which is a lot to take. (Marathon swimmers usually take 20 or 30 minute feeds at half the volume for long swims). Keep your feed times quick, less than 20 seconds.

I personally avoid bananas when near the sea, my entirely personal notion is that they provoke seasickness.I'd go with a gel plus water or a liquid feed (which is all I use).

Oh, and btw yes, porridge is yer man. I hate porridge, but I always it eat. Bagels are good also for the same reason.

ShineyShiney

Donal could you offer some advice on what sort of pre swim routine you use in the week leading up to a swim?

I'm a regular reader of your blog it's full of useful info.
Thanks

DonalB

Hey Shiney, I'm not sure if you mean a big swim, of which I'm not doing any this year, ('cause too broke :-( ) or just something like a 5 to 10k?

In the case of a moderately big swim, for example Around Manhattan you can assume weekly training of say 35k. (Channel training would be more, for me anyway). I'd do a last long swim, 5 or 6 hours, two weekends before then start tapering by dropping distance every day, but keeping up intensity until in the final 5 days or so, I'd only be swimming 30 minutes.

For a 5k, I wouldn't do anything, for a 10k, I might take the day beforehand off.

ShineyShiney

Thanks Donal
I suppose I mean a BIG swim for me, not so big for you:-)

Its tops 15km

I was wondering about taper and diet for the days before it and any other useful tips.

DonalB

15k is always a big swim! Best of luck with it.

Honestly when it comes to diet, if I'm hungry I eat. If you are training for 15k you likely have a healthy appetite. I have an normal diet, maybe I eat a bit more, but otherwise I don't do anything special. There are techniques for carb loading that I covered on the blog about 3 years ago (http://loneswimmer.com/2010/03/03/evidence-based-carb-loading-plans-possible-strategies-for-the-next-long-swim/) but I don't bother to try anything specific anymore. I might increase carbs and water the day before but don't overdo it either. Also a massage a week beforehand will really help.

I'd say the best thing is to try to get a good night sleep the second and third night before the event, even to the extent of taking a sleeping pill if necessary if you get nervous. Then if you don't sleep the night before the event it shouldn't matter at all.

Also some people are great during taper, and feel fantastic but I tend to freak out a bit during taper, I get those phantom taper pains and every time I'm convinced that this time there really is something wrong but recognising that helps.

peter kern

what wetsuit are you using ?
for instance the helix blue 70 could be a poor choice of wetsuit for you ( at least 2011 and 12 models as they have very thin material in fore armes ( a part where body loses heat fast and ergo a great part to use ice in hot conditions) so you could cut of arms from another wetsuit etc etc ( whatever is viable) as long as you dodnt go over 5 m ( at tleast in triathlon)
another think that has worked is a neoprem wrist warmer. Aisling at wheelworx would be the best to talk about.and where to get them.
anyway what iam sayin is warm hands require warm arms .....
hope that might help

Foyler wrote: »

Putting this in here because the swimming forum has tumbleweeds blowing through it, I do the odd sprint tri and well I'm sure its relevant to some of the full Ironmen/women.

Been building up the distances over the last few years towards a swim from Inisbofin to Cleggan (9k) in Connemara which we are planning for the beginning of August.
I retired from rugby 3 years back at 14 stone with already low body fat but due to all the mileage on the bike and water, I've dropped 2 stone so have really low body fat now.

I've a good suit but generally leave the socks and hood behind this time of year and have been losing the feeling in my hands and feet after about an hour & 1/2.
Did 6k today in a warm sheltered bay and was fine but the water will be a fair bit colder out at the island and we'll be in the water for 3+ hours.

I can live with the feet as they're mostly just drafting but the hands are a real problem, I've tried flexing them on the recovery but its one more thing to think of ( relax arms, head & neck, rotate, glide, catch, high elbow on pull & recovery, breathing, etc etc:rolleyes: )and is far from an instinct at this stage meaning it can knock me out of the 'zone'.

Should I accept I'm a big girls blouse and wear socks & hood, will it help much?
Tried gloves in the Winter and hated them & its cheating.
All suggestions much appreciated!

Foyler

peter kern wrote: »

what wetsuit are you using ?
for instance the helix blue 70 could be a poor choice of wetsuit for you ( at least 2011 and 12 models as they have very thin material in fore armes ( a part where body loses heat fast and ergo a great part to use ice in hot conditions) so you could cut of arms from another wetsuit etc etc ( whatever is viable) as long as you dodnt go over 5 m ( at tleast in triathlon)
another think that has worked is a neoprem wrist warmer. Aisling at wheelworx would be the best to talk about.and where to get them.
anyway what iam sayin is warm hands require warm arms .....
hope that might help

Thanks for pitching in Peter, I had a cheapish Zoot originally which wasn't great but 3 years back a mate in the trade gave me a Quintana Roo which is far superior and I reckon its is a €500 suit so good quality but not sure on the mm in different parts.
I had been pulling up the legs and arms a little to try and allow more flex at the shoulders/groin but perhaps that as a mistake.
I swim a lot with my Lab (his record is 4.5k!!)and he has a habit like all dogs of swimming up and clawing me which has taken its toll on the suit. I've patched it with the 'witch something' rubber/neo gear which to be fair did a great job but I'm due a replacement in the next while.
I was thinking of getting one sooner but not sure if they're like runners that need to be broken in/adapt to my shape??

Donal thanks for the feed/drink tips, good to hear there's no need to stop so often as I don't like to break stroke and risk getting cold while stopped.
I've bonked a few times on the bike and it is HORRIBLE so really want to avoid that.

Guill

OP.

I suffer with Raynauds Syndrome. Raynaurds is when my body over reacts to a slight temperature change and withdraws blood from my hands and feet to keep my internal organs warm. For me this can happen anytime, even last week during the heat wave, winter is almost unbearable. While what you describe is more than likely not caused by Raynauds It could still be your body trying to keep itself warm. Try (and it might be hard while swimming) wiggling your fingers and toes and wear the booties if you can.

Foyler

Thanks Guill, I don't think its that's serious for me, as you'll read below I managed the swim fine by upping the cadence as suggested by Donal, just need to put on about 4 stone if I'm ever going to do a similar event without a suit!

So after about 3 years build up and much procrastination over tides, wind direction, swell, how we all felt etc etc , yesterday was the day for the swim from inishbofin island to cleggan.
Due to the above factors along with discovering last night it was closer to 12 k than the 9k we had planned and trained for, it ended up being the other way around!

But we fcuking made it, just under 11k in 3 hours, 36 minutes.


There were 3 of us, myself and a buddy I've been talking to about this swim for a couple of years. Then frank a lad we know came along and said he was hoping to do the swim to raise funds for the RNLI and would we like to join up.

It was the kick up the behind we needed and since frank said it was only 9k and we'd done 6 already this summer, we decided to have a cut off it.

The channel between the mainland and island is very exposed so getting a day when all of the previously mentioned factors line up can prove tricky. We eventually made the call to go Sunday on Saturday afternoon, tide would be ebbing, no major swell and a force 2-3 southerly would 'in theory' help us along.
We just had enough time to arrange the necessary safety boats and kayaker s who are crucial to help you take on some food and fluids. They are also important to keep you online, the ebbing tide flows to the south through the channel while the wind and waves were coming the opposite direction so it proved difficult to plot the easiest line.
As it turned out, the wind created a chop and disorderly wave that was hitting us on our favoured breathing side and our pilot overestimated the effect of the tide which left us reaching the middle of the island whereas the harbour, our final destination is another 2k over on the east end, which left us facing into the wind & waves for the fairly brutal final stretch.

We swam together for the first 6k until our second feed ( I had 4 stops and ate 4 gels and a few jaffas with maybe a pint of fluid ) but I was starting to lose my feet and hands so had to pick up the pace to stay warm meaning we separated at that point. The next 3k were lovely, smooth as, clear mind and that lump of rock in the distance just getting bigger and bigger.

The aforementioned final 2k were where the suffering started, it's amazing the highs and lows you go through. I could now almost touch the island but having to turn left and face the weather was a real downer.
I wanted to murder my assigned kayaker who also happened to be my brother for not paying attention to us being pushed offline. He said afterwards he found it hilarious and slightly disturbing that despite pretty much reaching my goal, I was raging mad and throwing multiple fcuks at him every 100 yards.
I wanted to drag him and the pilot into the water to give them an idea of the pain I was in, as much mentally as physically.
You're shoulders/arms/lats are on fire, every other time you come up for air you get a mouthful of salt water, you can't see where you're going through the waves and you're goddamn brother keeps drifting back for a chat with the other kayaker's while I plough on through all the seaweed and walls of jellyfish that the waves have pushed close to the shore.

I can safely say that was the toughest 1/2 an hour of endurance I've ever done, you always hear about the huge number of channel swimmers who fail with France in sight as the tide turns and they've nothing in the tank, I guess I got a glimpse of that pain.

Managed to push through into the beautifully calm harbour but the lads had closed the gap by taking a more direct line and not being as knackered.
I was heading for the new harbour which is where I thought the finish was, but my brother (the smiling sadist) along with the pilot could see frank closing on me and decided a little drama at the finish would be nice and pointed to the old harbour, another 300 metres on. I was empty and frank passed me with 100 to go like I was standing still.
It really wasn't a race but being men doing an activity together there was always going to be some competitive edge and while I thought I might be a bit down and was worried it would put a dampener on the achievement, but I've surprised myself by just being utterly delighted to get it done, 'twas some finish as well for the 2 men and a dog watching from Days Bar!
Mental really after 3 & 1/2 hours and that distance to be separated by a few seconds. Simon came gliding in a few minutes later, similarly elated.

For those who think this mileage is a bit out there, I've never had a lesson other than from my Ma as a youngster and only started doing more than 200 yards about 3-4 years back when I retired from rugby, longest distance before yesterday was about 7.5k in flat calm water.

Ill try and post a map link of the swim later and see if I can find a mycharity link in case any of you feel like throwing a few quid to the RNLI.

The below is a link to Simon's garmin recording, think mine lost satelite as it only read 7.5k but I'll see what it shows later.

http://connect.garmin.com/player/349824534#.UfWBcoBf16E.email

Charity link if any of you feel like throwing a few quid to the RNLI.

http://www.mycharity.ie/event/franck_homburgers_event

ShineyShiney

Congrats on reaching your goal, a great swim by the sound of it.