The death of WCW (A Fans Perspective)

LOTD

Just want to post another thread. There has been a lot said as to what where the many causes that lead to the demise of WCW. Though from a fans perspective when watching the show itself when did you feel like it was going down the drain, for me it has to be Starrcade 1999. It was equal parts tragedy/comedy. The worst match ever has to be Kevin Nash v Sid Vicious in that laughable powerbomb match. It also marked the end of Bret Hart's career with Goldberg's superkick plus the end of that match was terrible.

rovert

That's an interesting one. Anything was an improvement on the 1999 WCW Summer of Suck. Quickly the Russo and Ferrara Nitro's revealed themselves to be not WWF influenced but cheap WWF rip off shows. Starrcade 1999 was horrid but I thought Nitro the following night was really strong. Starrcade was a bit dreck WCW fans had to sit through to get where Russo wanted to go - the reformation of the NWO which I thought was good stuff.

To me it was June 2000 when I thought WCW was completely going down the tubes, irrevocably damaging the core, brand, promotion equity or whatever you want to call it when all the title switches, booking and match finishes.

I wish the solid but unremarkable product they were presenting in the Spring of 2001 was presented in the Spring of 2000 instead of the Kevin Sullivan regime. WCW possibly would still be on TNT with the right financial management. Not saying it would be an easy feat WCW was a runaway train in terms of it's spending and had a really terrible culture and work ethic amongst talent.

LOTD

The talent WCW had at their disposal was unreal Guerrero, Jericho, Benoit and Paul Wight amongst countless others. I think at some point all had a problem with Nash or Hall, Guerrero went as far as saying Nash was genuinely evil. To be a fly on the wall in creative during this time would have be something else. How much were Nash, Hall and Hogan to blame for WCW downfall, their contracts were insane as far as creative went, that would be my own opinion. Russo and Ferrara influence was pretty toxic as well.

CastorTroy

Could nearly do a piece up about how TNA could learn from what happened with WCW, starting with the likes of Hogan, of course

LOTD

I know it's real scary the similarities between the two companies at the moment paying staff late is not a good sign. To be honest I don't want to see Hogan hobble down to the ring anymore, when they have the likes of Austin Aries, Samoa Joe, AJ Styles, Kurt Angle and Jeff Hardy. This is my own opinion between 2005-2008 I taught they were the best wrestling promotion maybe not creatively but from a talent standpoint it was brimming with potential now that seems to have gone to waste.

Jester252

CastorTroy wrote: »

Could nearly do a piece up about how TNA could learn from what happened with WCW, starting with the likes of Hogan, of course

From what I know TNA needs Hogan to stay on TV.
As for WCW Jericho descibed it as a cancer. When the likes of Hogan, Hall, Nask came back to WWE he was afraid that they were going to pull their same **** but when he worked with Nash and Hogan he said that they where now some of the best people to work with. After their fight Goldberg became nice to him and often offered back to his home. According to Chris WCW story meeting had everyone demand what they wanted from Hogan to Turner which just turned everything to sh1t trying to get it to work (Hogan vs. Jarnett)
WWE had everyone suggest ideas with Vinny having the final say.

LOTD

When Hogan, Hall and Nash came back into the WWE in 2002 they knew well they couldn't get away with the same stuff they were doing in WCW most tellingly Hall was soon fired after he came back into WWE, sure by 2000 WCW had got ride of him that's how bad a state he was in. As rovert pointed out WCW had a terrible work ethic, guys could get away with anything. As a wrestling fan I want TNA to succeed but they seem so clueless.

DEFTLEFTHAND

It's all down to mismanagement and incompetence. They had it all, they could have crushed WWF and took over the mantle of the wrestling business. The real thing 'NWA' not sports entertainment.

Any University student of business should research the fall of WCW as a guide of how not to run a company.

Ape Lincoln

I recently watched Slamboree and Uncensored 98. Both are pretty poor shows imo. There's some good matches like Finlay v Benoit and Jericho v Malenko and Goldberg was still in the ascent but the main event picture looked dull to me. Once everyone and their granny was in the NWO I think WCW lost its spark save for the often excellent cruiserweight matches but it was the big boys with the big power clogging up TV time.

The inconsistency of kayfabe in WCW always pissed me off: Bret Hart restarts the dull Sting/Hogan Starrcade 97 match due to a planned fast count which was anything but fast; Hogan and Flair had a first blood cage match in March 99 which if I recall correctly ended in a pin! Crap like that made it look so amateurish.

By 2000 WWF had nutured The Rock and HHH into the main events and they were able to carry the load pretty well imo add in a pretty good roster on the undercards and WWF was good fun. WCW in 2000 by contrast was a mess. The big guys seemed to only work PPVs when it suited them, only DDP and Goldberg had been given a push and Russo was coming up with the stupidest ideas.



Fwiw, the Jarrett/Benoit ladder match from Starrcade 99 was very good but too short and afaik was only added to the card on the day. I don't think WCW ever had any long term planning save for maybe Goldberg.

LOTD

WCW undercard was great in the mid to late 90's much more so than the WWF. As for the kayfabe issue I agree with you,they seemed to be trying to pull one over the fans yet it would just fall flat on it's face it came across as arrogant and disrespectful.

I think the big kicker with WCW was the contracts plus it was real evident when the WWF bought WCW, how many guys where happy to sit at home and see out the remainder of there contracts. I think those guys did a disservice to the company, I taught the Invasion could of been a great last hurrah for WCW to showcase the talent it had. That's only my opinion on things, would you guys agree or see it differently.

Jester252

Just a side note the true death of WCW was Buff Bagwell. After Vinny brough WCW the plan was to have Nitro on Friday and keep WCW and WWF separate with ECW split between them.

After a match between Bagwell and Booker T Vinny scraped the plan because he hated how WCW stars worked. A good point to this was the climax to the invasion angle where WCW/ECW team had 60% WWF stars.
Smackdown was only mean to be a once off but people loved it so Vince used his orginal plan for WCW. So in a way Smackdown is WCW

gnfnrhead

Jester252 wrote: »

Just a side note the true death of WCW was Buff Bagwell. After Vinny brough WCW the plan was to have Nitro on Friday and keep WCW and WWF separate with ECW split between them.

After a match between Bagwell and Booker T Vinny scraped the plan because he hated how WCW stars worked. A good point to this was the climax to the invasion angle where WCW/ECW team had 60% WWF stars.
Smackdown was only mean to be a once off but people loved it so Vince used his orginal plan for WCW. So in a way Smackdown is WCW

The very next week they were in Atlanta and decided not to wait, likely so it wouldnt overshadow the WWF matches on the show. Do it a week later and it would have been much better.

LOTD

That match was so painful, wwe.com ran a story about it recently. Felt sorry for Booker T, Bagwell on the other was a disgrace a true product of how toxic WCW had become by the end.

I know smackdown was meant to be a one off. I don't get what you mean by saying Smackdown is WCW.

Just a side note the power plant woefully undertrained and prepared guys, I think that was a major part as well

Jester252

gnfnrhead wrote: »

The very next week they were in Atlanta and decided not to wait, likely so it wouldnt overshadow the WWF matches on the show. Do it a week later and it would have been much better.

Its a shame that WCW did fall and WWE got rid of the brands. I can't see any promotion reaching the level of WWE again.
Its also a shame that Booker T was the only WCW star that came in with the buy out to have success in the WWE ring.

Jester252

LOTD wrote: »

That match was so painful, wwe.com ran a story about it recently. Felt sorry for Booker T, Bagwell on the other was a disgrace a true product of how toxic WCW had become by the end.

I know smackdown was meant to be a one off. I don't get what you mean by saying Smackdown is WCW.

Just a side note the power plant woefully undertrained and prepared guys, I think that was a major part as well

The brand extension was orginal planned as WWF and WCW until WCW was scraped. The plan only came back with the success of Smackdown and since Raw is WWF major show. It could be argued that Smackdown is the evolution of WCW.

LOTD

WWE couldn't do anything with WCW, such a shame the rise and fall of that company in such a short amount of time, I mean it most successful years were 96-98 and the promotion folded in 2001 that's scary.

I also got the feeling McMahon couldn't believe himself that he bought out the company that had been his biggest competition a few years previously.

764dak

Jester252 wrote: »

Just a side note the true death of WCW was Buff Bagwell. After Vinny brough WCW the plan was to have Nitro on Friday and keep WCW and WWF separate with ECW split between them.

After a match between Bagwell and Booker T Vinny scraped the plan because he hated how WCW stars worked. A good point to this was the climax to the invasion angle where WCW/ECW team had 60% WWF stars.
Smackdown was only mean to be a once off but people loved it so Vince used his orginal plan for WCW. So in a way Smackdown is WCW

Jester252 wrote: »

The brand extension was orginal planned as WWF and WCW until WCW was scraped. The plan only came back with the success of Smackdown and since Raw is WWF major show. It could be argued that Smackdown is the evolution of WCW.

What? The Invasion storyline was in 2001 and Smackdown's pilot was in April 1999 and it became a regular show in August 1999. Smackdown didn't evolve from WCW.

LOTD

764dak I was going to post that, Smackdown and WCW have nothing to do with each other. Smackdown is not WCW, don't know where you are getting that from jester.

gnfnrhead

764dak wrote: »

What? The Invasion storyline was in 2001 and Smackdown's pilot was in April 1999 and it became a regular show in August 1999. Smackdown didn't evolve from WCW.

Think he mean's the brand split. Instead of being Raw and Smackdown, it'd have been WWF/E and WCW.

LOTD

Want to reign in the thread a little and get back to the OP. When did you realise as a fan watching the product that it start going downhill. What angle left you totally bewildered merely as a casual or somebody who watched it every week.

Omackeral

The whole 'worked shoots' thing they start doing. Saying the script called for a wrestler's loss (Goldberg was involved I think) but that he was going into business for himself and going against the writers script. Absolutely stupid. It would be like John McClane looking directly at the camera and saying 'I'm actually Bruce Willis.

Then there was the Hogan/Russo/Jarrett 'shoot' using insider terms. Just ridiculous gank. This was the turn of the century, internet was'nt that big so maybe 5% of the live audience knew what was going on. Deserved what they got!

Jester252

Was more of an WWF kid but I knew WCW was failing when WCW stars started to work for WWF.

Ape Lincoln

Omackeral wrote: »

The whole 'worked shoots' thing they start doing. Saying the script called for a wrestler's loss (Goldberg was involved I think) but that he was going into business for himself and going against the writers script. Absolutely stupid. It would be like John McClane looking directly at the camera and saying 'I'm actually Bruce Willis.

Then there was the Hogan/Russo/Jarrett 'shoot' using insider terms. Just ridiculous gank. This was the turn of the century, internet was'nt that big so maybe 5% of the live audience knew what was going on. Deserved what they got!

I'd say a similar % of WWE's audience today are smart marks on the internet learning about the behind the scenes stuff.

Omackeral

Omackeral wrote: »

The whole 'worked shoots' thing they start doing. Saying the script called for a wrestler's loss (Goldberg was involved I think) but that he was going into business for himself and going against the writers script. Absolutely stupid. It would be like John McClane looking directly at the camera and saying 'I'm actually Bruce Willis.

Did they seriously do that??

/case closed

sockmo

WCW's ridiculous experiment in metafiction.

LOTD

WCW was insane. Can't find it at the moment but in an interview Chris Jericho said WCW sent him a package through fedex which he said cost around 50 dollars, Atlanta to Winnipeg, the package contained nothing. Little things like that encapsulate the madness of WCW.

sockmo

http://www.wackbag.com/threads/the-stupidity-of-wcw.80399/

Somebody posted this up here a few weeks ago. (apologies to whoever it was,not stealing your thunder,get it? Thunder? Yeah)

It's pretty hilarious,

fman

Had not heard the story of David Arquette donating his earnings before.

Reading through that list though it's amazing WCW lasted as long as it did and amazing that the likes of Russo/Bischoff etc have gotten jobs since.

Ruu

Excuse the bump. Found the 1993 WCW annual. It is in great condition. Has bios of Sting, PN News, Z-Man, El Gigante, Rick Rude. Also a few comics by Stan Lee. My favourite being Paul E. bringing out a robot that was programmed to wrestle to fight Sting.

I will try and scan a few pages for the laugh if anyone wants.

hufpc8w3adnk65

Ruubot2 wrote: »

Excuse the bump. Found the 1993 WCW annual. It is in great condition. Has bios of Sting, PN News, Z-Man, El Gigante, Rick Rude. Also a few comics by Stan Lee. My favourite being Paul E. bringing out a robot that was programmed to wrestle to fight Sting.

I will try and scan a few pages for the laugh if anyone wants.

I had that