Dirt in coolant (photos)

Toyotafanboi

just gave the glanza a once over as usual today and found this and got a little fright to be honest.

i've had the car 14 months and put 23k km's on it. i changed both the oil and coolant when i got it (this time last year), oil changed again around christmas and once again a fortnight ago.

i would always check the coolant level on the expansion tank as part of my monthly checks and it has never moved from there, perfectly on full. today it is approx 2cm below the full mark. (dont know if i'm being OCD or if it was just always there). the car has never consumed a large amount of oil, maybe 250-500ml every 10k km's.

i have never ever ( ) between the first coolant change and today opened the rad cap. opened this, a small amount of coolant hissed out (engine cold), got a fright and now i am here.

there is like a sludge just under the coolant cap. it felt very like modeling clay between my fingers and came out quite easily. it was like a skin on top just in the cap area. i lifted it out and the coolant below is a fresh vivid liquid red and flowing well. car is running as good as ever.

what?

Mycroft H

Did you flush it out properly the first time you changed the coolant? Probably grime/rust/shíte floating to the high point. Wouldn't be too worried about it tbh.

Toyotafanboi

BX 19 wrote: »

Did you flush it out properly the first time you changed the coolant? Probably grime/rust/shíte floating to the high point. Wouldn't be too worried about it tbh.

as best as i know how. the reason i changed it initially is because the old coolant was VERY rusty, it was still a nice fluid liquid but most certainly a rusty brown.

Mycroft H

I've never managed to flush out rusty coolant enough to keep the new coolant blue/green/whatever. It usually turns back to brown within a couple of 1000 miles in my experience.

Jesus.

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

car is running as good as ever.]

There's your answer Bro. Wouldn't worry about that a'tall.

Toyotafanboi

BX 19 wrote: »

I've never managed to flush out rusty coolant enough to keep the new coolant blue/green/whatever. It usually turns back to brown within a couple of 1000 miles in my experience.

makes me feel a little better!

Jesus. wrote: »

There's your answer Bro. Wouldn't worry about that a'tall.

i wouldn't go that far just yet. i'm just looking to do 500km's in it Sunday/ Monday so i don't want to take it at all if there is a chance i will do damage/ be left stranded etc.

dan_ep82

The person before you used water, which rusts. Take it out and flush it through with a hose for as long as takes to run clear. Fit it back in and flush a bit of coolant through, close the bleed nipple and fill it up. Do the same with the expansion bottle.

Eventually it will come better but you'll nearly always find it rusts slightly

Toyotafanboi

hope you are right. i just cleaned it all away there now, cleaned the cap too, the top and bottom rad hoses are clear as is the hose from the rad cap to the expansion tank.

topped up the coolant too (approx 250ml down) which is now my biggest concern now. that said i'm sure there is a logical explanation aside from a head gasket issue :P

Toyotafanboi

ok, took it on the motorway for around 10 minutes after cleaning it and topping up the fluid.

opened the rad cap again (carefully, lots of pressure released) and this

its more of a foam/bubbles this time. very thin.

Jesus.

You're worrying over nowte man.

Chill your beans!

eringobragh

What coolant you using in that? The Toyota 4life Red stuff is the one to use afaik.

Toyotafanboi

eringobragh wrote: »

What coolant you using in that? The Toyota 4life Red stuff is the one to use afaik.

i'm not using toyota branded coolant specifically, the coolant initially in it was "red" so i replaced it with "red" having made sure it was suitable for my car when i bought it. i think i will replace it again in the morning, see what that does for me.

MetzgerMeister

I'd say it's just the remnants of condensation reacting with the metal. I wouldn't worry about it especially if the car is running fine and not overheating.

Did you ask on TOC about it?

Toyotafanboi

havn't asked on TOC. I dont really post so much on there in terms of fault finding.

hopefully it'l all be ok, just dont want the dreaded head gasket failure, hopefully its something less sinister. i'l report back tomorrow how it goes

MetzgerMeister

Wouldn't HG failure be a creamy substance on the underneath of the oil cap rather than this?

Toyotafanboi

MetzgerMeister wrote: »

Wouldn't HG failure be a creamy substance on the underneath of the oil cap rather than this?

my understanding is that it can mix either way.

eg - you could find contamination in the oil or in the coolant.

MetzgerMeister

But both the oil and coolant are good colours?

I stand by what I said about it being a chemical reaction between the metal and coolant and you shouldn't worry about it.

dgt

Without hearing the car start or seeing it in person it's a bit difficult to diagnose..... Coolant not only cools but keeps the sh*t and dirt moving and away from vital components in the engine. I find sludgy crap gets left moreso on radiator caps where an expansion tank isn't present (just an observation)

The white residue I often find is coolant reacting with aluminum. A hg failure would be white smoke out the back, gurgling behind the dash and generally very poor running.

Let it cool well and try again in the morning. Check your level and clean that sludge from the cap. Start up and listen for excessive gushing behind the dash in the matrix area. Look for white smoke when up to normal temperature.

I do hope it's exactly as i said and not a hg or something more sinister.... Good luck!

Toyotafanboi

i am mr. OCD over how my engine runs (which is probably why i drive an old toyota and could never handle an alfa :P )

and the engine is running sweet, like i done around 30 or 40km's this evening, not a blip, not a single misfire, good power etc, idles very steady around 750rpm. have noticed no difference in how it runs and i'm always on the lookout being vigilant for unusual noises and issues. there is no white smoke/ steam to indicate it being burned.

if i hadn't been under the bonnet and noticed this today there would be nothing else giving away the fact that something was potentially wrong.

the engine was stone cold when i discovered this today (hadn't been driven for at least 12 hours) and it was a very thick firm sludge so i assume it had built up over a time. after cleaning it up, topping up the levels and making sure all the hoses were clean i took it for a drive. when i got back (second set of pictures) there were just a few wispy bubbles of it.

what other causes of sludgy deposits could there be aside from hgf?

dgt

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

i am mr. OCD over how my engine runs (which is probably why i drive an old toyota and could never handle an alfa :P )

and the engine is running sweet, like i done around 30 or 40km's this evening, not a blip, not a single misfire, good power etc, idles very steady around 750rpm. have noticed no difference in how it runs and i'm always on the lookout being vigilant for unusual noises and issues. there is no white smoke/ steam to indicate it being burned.

if i hadn't been under the bonnet and noticed this today there would be nothing else giving away the fact that something was potentially wrong.

the engine was stone cold when i discovered this today (hadn't been driven for at least 12 hours) and it was a very thick firm sludge so i assume it had built up over a time. after cleaning it up, topping up the levels and making sure all the hoses were clean i took it for a drive. when i got back (second set of pictures) there were just a few wispy bubbles of it.

what other causes of sludgy deposits could there be aside from hgf?

Similar reason for moving to a Pug as a daily back in the day it was almost a 99 point inspection before setting off anywhere, everyday in the van :eek: now normal checks are all I do before each journey

Other causes of deposits could be a dodgy earth, look for a dodgy radiator and test with a multimeter

You don't want to hear this but it does look like oil leak in coolant to me. Does the car have oil to water cooler? If not the leak is almost certainly from oil galley to coolant, possible at the head gasket.

Oil pressure in most engines is at 3 bars or more when driving and the coolant circuit is at about 1 bar at the most. Therefore a small leak between the two systems will lead to oil in coolant.

Harcrid

If the coolant in the coolant bottle is its normal colour and does not have traces of oil in it then I reckon you are fine. If there was oil in the coolant then it would be visible in the bottle as well rather than just the radiator cap.

Toyotafanboi

ok, drained the old stuff earlier. was mostly ok, healthy colour (if a little rusty, as i said).

gave as good a flush as i could. the top of the rad was a little bit coked up with that gunk but the rad hoses, expansion tank and block appeared to be 99% clear.

now we wait...

i think i'm going to make the trip in it sunday anyway. the engine is running very well so hopefully not head gasket failure. obviously i will keep a very close eye on things. but then at the same time i am caught in a conundrum. if it is the head gasket i could have it replaced much cheaper now as the car has never overheated etc. whereas if i drive it and a problem does develop then i will have to pay for recovery plus head skimming etc. but then it might not be the head gasket at all and i am just being over cautious.

Jesus.

Does it matter what coolant you put in an engine?

Toyotafanboi

Jesus. wrote: »

Does it matter what coolant you put in an engine?

short answer, yes

Avns1s

Toyotafanboi, I'm sorry to say that I agree with Samih on this. I didn't like to say earlier but all the pictures and the way you have described it, suggest to me that there is a small amount of oil getting into the water.

Where it's getting in is another issue.

Jesus.

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

short answer, yes

I was thinking that that might be the reason for fanboi's sticky substance on his coolant cap.

I topped up my coolant today. The stuff in the tank was blue but the stuff I put in was yellow. The colours are only dye that's put in to differentiate slightly different liquids.

I don't think it makes any difference. I think you're deliberately scaremongering here mate.

bobin fudge

exactly. WWJD?

Toyotafanboi

Jesus. wrote: »

I was thinking that that might be the reason for fanboi's sticky substance on his coolant cap.

I topped up my coolant today. The stuff in the tank was blue but the stuff I put in was yellow. The colours are only dye that's put in to differentiate slightly different liquids.

I don't think it makes any difference. I think you're deliberately scaremongering here mate.

deliberately scaremongering? you joking?

i have heard that mixing coolants can cause unpleasant chemical reactions and cause rubbers to perish, metals to corrode etc. that said it's far from the matter at hand. my coolant isn't mixed.

deliberately scaremongering? to be honest i don't hold much regard for your seemingly uneducated responses.

i am a little concerned as tbh right now i really couldn't afford for my head gasket to be gone and be lumbered with a € 500-750 ish bill, so i want to make sure i exhaust all other options before i act on it.

so if all else fails, bring it home and ask dad, so i did.

compression tested at cyl 1-165psi, cyl 2-165, cyl 3-160, cyl 4,-170 (rounded to the nearest 5psi)

so looks ok in that regard even though as i understand a healthy compression test wont necessarily rule out hgf. after a bit of driving today nothing has really re-emerged. so the plan is to just drive the car as normal and see what happens.

166man

Jesus. wrote: »

I was thinking that that might be the reason for fanboi's sticky substance on his coolant cap.

I topped up my coolant today. The stuff in the tank was blue but the stuff I put in was yellow. The colours are only dye that's put in to differentiate slightly different liquids.

I don't think it makes any difference. I think you're deliberately scaremongering here mate.

Alfa's come with two coolants, red and blue both of which have different life spans. You are NEVER supposed to mix them, EVER. The slightly different liquids could cause you a godsend of problems.

Andy, I do hate to say it but it could be hgf, however this would normally have resulted from poor maintenance but that's something that couldn't be possible with your car.

Keep an eye on it the next few days, if it's hfg, you'll know about it.

Jesus.

166man wrote: »

You are NEVER supposed to mix them, EVER. The slightly different liquids could cause you a godsend of problems.

I respect your opinion on this so fair play. I just happen to think there's a bit of unnecessary hysteria attached to this coolant thing.

Much ado about nothing IMO.

MetzgerMeister

Jesus. wrote: »

I respect your opinion on this so fair play. I just happen to think there's a bit of unnecessary hysteria attached to this coolant thing.

Much ado about nothing IMO.

You're new to the motors forum and from what I can see, new to boards. Do you not think it's a bit much to come here and accuse TFB (a long time member here) of scaremongering just because he's trying to find the answer to his problem? Cool it :cool:

On another note, it's common knowledge that you don't mix coolant colours due to different coolants containing different chemicals and different types of antifreeze. These are all to suit different types of engine (aluminium, cast iron etc.)

166man

Jesus. wrote: »

I respect your opinion on this so fair play. I just happen to think there's a bit of unnecessary hysteria attached to this coolant thing.

Much ado about nothing IMO.

If you mix the blue and pink/red coolants in Alfa's both chemicals with their respective different properties can and will react with each other, once this happens the mix begins to eat away at your seals and gaskets and can cause the headgasket to go, much ado about nothing is it?

Jesus.

166man wrote: »

If you mix the blue and pink/red coolants in Alfa's

Who said anything about Alfa's? I'm talking in general. If Alfa's are a bit on the delicate side then that's another discussion.

166man

Jesus. wrote: »

Who said anything about Alfa's? I'm talking in general. If Alfa's are a bit on the delicate side then that's another discussion.

Using Alfa's as an example there...;)

It is widely accepted you shouldn't mix engine coolants, so yeah I'm talking in general too.

Jesus.

166man wrote: »

It is widely accepted you shouldn't mix engine coolants, so yeah I'm talking in general too.

Fair point there mate. I mixed mine earlier so I hope it won't do any damage.

I just have a general feeling that perhaps sometimes we can overdo the worrying over certain things. Motoring could easily go the way of OCD foodies who claim that practically everything is bad for you, even the water from the tap. The crowd that are so cautious about everything they do they end up doing more damage than if they chilled out a bit.

Engines are robust enough if you don't fu*k around with them too much. Very simplistic stuff I know but that's just what I've found to be the case down the years.

166man

Jesus. wrote: »

Fair point there mate. I mixed mine earlier so I hope it won't do any damage.

I just have a general feeling that perhaps sometimes we can overdo the worrying over certain things. Motoring could easily go the way of OCD foodies who claim that practically everything is bad for you, even the water from the tap. The crowd that are so cautious about everything they do they end up doing more damage than if they chilled out a bit.

Engines are robust enough if you don't fu*k around with them too much. Very simplistic stuff I know but that's just what I've found to be the case down the years.

What do you drive?





*Sorry to be p1ssing all over your thread Andy...:o

Jesus.

166man wrote: »

What do you drive?

Laguna II 1.6 petrol.

Please tell me I haven't fu*ked it up with the wrong coolant!

Would be just my luck.

Toyotafanboi

Jesus. wrote: »

Laguna II 1.6 petrol.

Please tell me I haven't fu*ked it up with the wrong coolant!

Would be just my luck.

and you claim alfas have soft engines...

calm down, engines are very robust, much ado about nothing, storm in a teacup. you will be fine.

not

Jesus.

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

and you claim alfas have soft engines...calm down, engines are very robust, much ado about nothing, storm in a teacup. you will be fine.

not

Okay, you got me mate. Fair cop.

Thinking about it though, doesn't the coolant in the tank look the same colour anyway because its mixed with water and you're looking through the plastic casing? So on reflection, I'm not quite sure which coolant was in the tank in the first place.

Anyway, I've derailed your thread enough Fanboi. Sorry for the intrusion.

Hope you find a solution to your problem mate.

166man

Jesus. wrote: »

Okay, you got me mate. Fair cop.

Thinking about it though, doesn't the coolant in the tank look the same colour anyway because its mixed with water and you're looking through the plastic casing? So on reflection, I'm not quite sure which coolant was in the tank in the first place.

Anyway, I've derailed your thread enough Fanboi. Sorry for the intrusion.

Hope you find a solution to your problem mate.

I can only advise a coolant flush, and not to make ridiculous accusations based on feck all experience towards a highly regarded poster.

Jesus.

166man wrote: »

I can only advise a coolant flush, and not to make ridiculous accusations based on feck all experience towards a highly regarded poster.

Christ on a bike, talk about getting your knickers in a twist.

166man

Jesus. wrote: »

Christ on a bike, talk about getting your knickers in a twist.

Well it was fairly p1ss poor advice wasn't it?

ShadowHearth

Okay.... Handbag drama aside. I vote for Oil getting in to cooling system. I have 100% same thing in my first car mazda 626. Oil was getting in to cooling system. Head gasket gone.
Maybe the leak is not so big for now as you dont see it overheating. Just keep an eye on it.

Ded_Zebra

Anyway, Making a smooth transition back to Toyotas...

I would honestly not worry about it too much if there are no other noticeable problems. Just keep an eye on it and particularly watch the temp gauge like a hawk and if it does stray even the tiniest bit over it's normal operating point stop immediately. If it's still gunking up in a week then look into further investigation.

Toyotafanboi

Sooooooooooooo 500km round trip complete, coolant and oil levels are spot on coolant looks acceptable. think i am out of the woods!