Conduit required for Schools?

Vandy West

Anyone know what the ESB or IET require for conduit in schools? Is uPVC okay or is steel required?

2011

Vandy West wrote: »

Anyone know what the ESB or IET require for conduit in schools? Is uPVC okay or is steel required?

You need only comply with the following:

1) National Rules for Electrical Installations, ET101:2008

2) The specifications (if any) issued by the electrical designers (if any).



If I were you I would have a look at how the rest of the installation is done. If everything else is steel conduit and you do yours in something different it will not look good. From your OP I would guess that this installation is steel conduit? IMHO steel conduit is a very good option as it provides excellent mechanical protection and schools are often subjected to vandalism.

mikehammer67

ya plastic not great in a school

ya'd have broken switches and sockets everyday and hazards

steel conduit and mk metalclad we used

whats the work

maxfresh

I am working in a job wiring a school ,any steel surface boxes must have no knockouts.

Vandy West

2011 wrote: »

You need only comply with the following:

1) National Rules for Electrical Installations, ET101:2008

2) The specifications (if any) issued by the electrical designers (if any).



If I were you I would have a look at how the rest of the installation is done. If everything else is steel conduit and you do yours in something different it will not look good. From your OP I would guess that this installation is steel conduit? IMHO steel conduit is a very good option as it provides excellent mechanical protection and schools are often subjected to vandalism.

Thanks for the replies. We (architects) specified the electrical work to comply with esb / iet requirements, but did not specify if conduit was to be steel or pvc. We should have also said to comply with dept education spec which is for metal conduit. Contractor awarded job in March, now saying he priced for pvc conduit and metal conduit is extra. Contractor familiar with department spec but says he priced pvc as that's what we specified. So just curious if esb or iet actually specify metal vs pvc.

Robbie.G

Vandy West wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. We (architects) specified the electrical work to comply with esb / iet requirements, but did not specify if conduit was to be steel or pvc. We should have also said to comply with dept education spec which is for metal conduit. Contractor awarded job in March, now saying he priced for pvc conduit and metal conduit is extra. Contractor familiar with department spec but says he priced pvc as that's what we specified. So just curious if esb or iet actually specify metal vs pvc.

If you didn't specify exactly what was to be used as the lads said PVC is acceptable under regs.The contractor priced the cheapest option which he is right to do if you want above this it is a additional extra

Vandy West

Robbie.G wrote: »

If you didn't specify exactly what was to be used as the lads said PVC is acceptable under regs.The contractor priced the cheapest option which he is right to do if you want above this it is a additional extra

Fair enough, just wanted to make sure pvc is ok for schools under the regs. Just find it funny that contractor pushed to surface mount conduit, then says conduit must be steel due to dept education standards and oh by the way I need an extra for that.

Robbie.G

Vandy West wrote: »

Fair enough, just wanted to make sure pvc is ok for schools under the regs. Just find it funny that contractor pushed to surface mount conduit, then says conduit must be steel due to dept education standards and oh by the way I need an extra for that.

This is what was happening us we would tender allowing for everything but lose out on price and be told we were to dear only to find out later that the winning tenderer got **** loads in extras.
So now we price only what's in black and white.So in this case I think the contractor has genuine extras even though he knew it should have been steel it wasn't in black and white.

mikehammer67

what we always did was ring the architects and clarify any doubts

basically inform them steel was required and would be priced for

same with fire alarms and EL if spec was low on detail

2011

Vandy West wrote: »

Fair enough, just wanted to make sure pvc is ok for schools under the regs.

Normally electrical scope of work documents, drawings, cable schedules etc, are issued to electrical contractors as part of the tendering process. These documents describe and refer to various standards, specify cable types etc. As you have not done this the only regulations that the electrical contractor must comply with are the ETCI regulations, (ET101:2008). There are no ESB or IET regulations that I am aware of that could possibly apply.

All documentation and drawings describing scopes of work should be designed to ensure:
1) All contractors submitting tenders are pricing for exactly the same work.
2) As little "wriggle room" as possible for the electrical contractor.
3) It should make it difficult for the electrical contractor to add in "extras" or "surprises".
4) Make all documentation as clear and unambiguous as possible. I think that this is best achieved by including plenty of drawings. Then statements can be used such as "The contractor shall be responsible for the installation of all cabling as shown on revision XXX of drawings XXXXX.......". These drawings would normally have a ledgend showing detailed cable specifications.
Another one often used is "In addition to XXXXXXXX Site Engineering Standards the complete Electrical, Instrumentation & Controls services installation shall be installed in accordance with the following reference codes and standards:" This is then followed by a large list of standards and directives.

Just find it funny that contractor pushed to surface mount conduit, then says conduit must be steel due to dept education standards and oh by the way I need an extra for that.

The contractor offered the most competitive price he could to meet your requirements, which is normal. When electrical contractors quote for work above and beyond what was asked for (such as steel conduit) the contract is normally not awarded to them. There are no electrical standards for the department of education that I am aware of. I expect that you would find that various electrical engineering consultancy’s wrote a specification(s) at some stage and the department keeps "recycling" it. However this documentation can only be applied to you contractor if it has been specifically mentioned in writing in the contract (or related documentation).

I would imagine that there are many more things that will not suit the way a school would normally be wired if you have not issued a clearly defined design.

I would be looking closely at:
1) Emergency lighting
2) Insurance company requirements – Look closely at the kitchen (they often have specific requirements with E-Stops).
3) Fire alarm
4) Circuit loading - For example, how many sockets per circuit? 25% spare capacity for future?
5) Cable types, normally LSZH (low smoke, zero halogen) cable would be specified

cast_iron

Vandy West wrote: »

Fair enough, just wanted to make sure pvc is ok for schools under the regs.

It would be within regs, but that does not mean it should be done. Simply put, there are no specific regs for schools. The ESB/IET don't govern the regs. As someone said earlier, MK metalclad boxes WITHOUT knockouts would also be expected, but there will be no regs stating they must be used. The tender documents should have all thee specs in addition to the basic regs.

Just find it funny that contractor pushed to surface mount conduit, then says conduit must be steel due to dept education standards and oh by the way I need an extra for that.

Others have stated why he would have done so; it has all become quite cut throat in the last few years.

2011 wrote: »

There are no electrical standards for the department of education that I am aware of. I expect that you would find that various electrical engineering consultancy’s wrote a specification(s) at some stage and the department keeps "recycling" it.

Agreed. I would have expected a department appointed consulting engineering firm to be overlooking the work also. It would be surprising if they allowed plastic conduit to go ahead in a school.

Stoner

Agree with 2011s post 100 percent.

Schools are very basic they have a few little quirky requirements. Hopefully this is only a few sockets. If there is a requirement for classroom lighting then you should make sure that you have that covered off to the schools spec too before you get hit with another extra.

Is there a contract in place for this work. If there is and if there is no mention of the dep of educations requirements then you should address all areas of work ASAP.

Hoagy

From TGD002:

"Circuits shall be carried in galvanised steel conduit and cable trunking as
appropriate. Surface boxes shall be specified without manufacturers knockouts."

Vandy West

Hoagy wrote: »

From TGD002:

"Circuits shall be carried in galvanised steel conduit and cable trunking as
appropriate. Surface boxes shall be specified without manufacturers knockouts."

Why would steel conduit be required if the conduit / wiring was to be chased into wall?

mikehammer67

Vandy West wrote: »

Why would steel conduit be required if the conduit / wiring was to be chased into wall?

safer to drill

larger installations better in steel anyhow

2011

Vandy West wrote: »

Why would steel conduit be required if the conduit / wiring was to be chased into wall?

1) Chasing costs more than surface steel conduit.

2) Surface run steel conduit offers greater flexibility. It is easy to change / modify add to etc.

3) Installing steel conduit offers far superior mechanical protection (chased or not). For example when I worked on the construction of Tallaght hospital. All conduit (mostly chased) was steel.

4) It also offers superior earthing, therefore much safer.

mikehammer67

steel is the business....

henryporter

2011 wrote: »

1) Chasing costs more than surface steel conduit.

2) Surface run steel conduit offers greater flexibility. It is easy to change / modify add to etc.

3) Installing steel conduit offers far superior mechanical protection (chased or not). For example when I worked on the construction of Tallaght hospital. All conduit (mostly chased) was steel.

4) It also offers superior earthing, therefore much safer.

'When you worked on Tallaght hospital' must have been a lifetime ago. I worked on it as a junior draughtsman while studying architecture in ucd. Must have been 1988 when I was churning out the drawings for that

2011

henryporter wrote: »

'When you worked on Tallaght hospital' must have been a lifetime ago. I worked on it as a junior draughtsman while studying architecture in ucd. Must have been 1988 when I was churning out the drawings for that

Yes, it was about 1995 when I was there (I think). Recently I said to someone "I remember when all of this was fields!", makes me feel old

John Paul construction were the main contractors.
The emergency lighting was a nightmare as it all had to be done in MICC, miles of it (literally) :eek: