July 2013 - Coalition waters down plan for high-speed broadband

ToadVine

Ah, FFS !!!

We all knew this was a sham, but I'm still fuming reading this sh1t from Rabbite.

From the article ...

"The Government's €175m National Broadband Plan had committed to funding rural premises with minimum broadband services of 30 megabits per second (Mbs), considered to be a basic fibre speed, by the end of next year.

However, despite renewed commitments to the 30Mbs speeds as recently as July 1, Minister for Communications Pat Rabbitte has now said that the Government may revert to lower speeds measuring "up to" 30Mbs.

"I'm not sure that a minimum speed is written in stone the more I learn about it," Mr Rabbitte said.

"I'm more interested in the quality of the broadband than whether it's 29Mbs or 31Mbs.""

Quin_Dub

ToadVine wrote: »

"I'm more interested in the quality of the broadband than whether it's 29Mbs or 31Mbs."[/I]"

I wonder what other measures of quality the denizens of Leinster House will be applying if Speed is not the critical one?

funnyname

Maybe they actually realise that it's not all about headline download speed and are formulating a plan to have a minimum for upload and latency as well.

bealtine

funnyname wrote: »

Maybe they actually realise that it's not all about headline download speed and are formulating a plan to have a minimum for upload and latency as well.

That seems very unlikely...I see this as an admission that 3g/4g will not deliver these headline speeds so instead of saying we should deliver 30Mb/s they change the goalposts so mobile can be considered...simple really.

clohamon

Just for the record, he was asked the speed question in quite specific terms, twice, in recent weeks.

Deputy Robert Troy asked the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources further to Parliamentary Question No. 117 of 23 May 2013 regarding the 30Mbps speed to be available to the last 30% of population, if he will clarify, in line with the objective of clarity on these matters noted in the Program for Government, that the broadband speed referred to is not a peak, theoretical, contracted or up to speed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [27679/13]

Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (Deputy Pat Rabbitte): The National Broadband Plan commits to speeds of 30Mbps – 70Mbps with target upload speeds in the region of 25% - 30% of these speeds. This will require investment by the State in areas where there is no commercial market.

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2013061100099?opendocument#WRDD01250

Nicky McFadden (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
To ask the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources if he will confirm that the target in the national broadband plan for the last 30% of population of a minimum of 30Mbps is a measure of the true customer experience that will be achieved; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [24845/13]

Pat Rabbitte (Minister, Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources; Dublin South West, Labour)
The Government, through the National Broadband Plan, which I published on 30th August last year, has recognised that the key imperative now is to ensure high speed broadband availability to all. Specifically, the Plan commits to:
- 70Mbps to 100Mbps available from the commercial market operators to more than half of the population by 2015,
- At least 40Mbps, and in many cases faster speeds, to at least a further 20% and potentially as much as 35% of the population, and
- A minimum of 30Mbps for every remaining home and business in the country.

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2013-05-23a.304&m=1064#g306.q

ToadVine

bealtine wrote: »

I see this as an admission that 3g/4g will not deliver these headline speeds so instead of saying we should deliver 30Mb/s they change the goalposts so mobile can be considered...simple really.

This ˆˆ


Speeds of "up to" 30Mbs contended at 50:1 with (potential) horrible congestion and all the other difficulties associated with 3G/4G. This is not broadband, and probably means nothing will change for those of in the sticks.

Depressing really.

Nolars

load a balls. up to 800,000 homes & business. so practically screw rural areas.

Quin_Dub

Nolars wrote: »

load a balls. up to 800,000 homes & business. so practically screw rural areas.

I love the way the Media report takes the Eircom Fibre coverage number and adds it to the UPC coverage number and then gives a figure for what's left...

Not taking into account that virtually everyone that can avail of UPC can also avail of Eircom so the reality is that a far high number of people have no access to meaningful broadband.

Whole thing is just a cop-out....

jmcc

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I love the way the Media report takes the Eircom Fibre coverage number and adds it to the UPC coverage number and then gives a figure for what's left...

Goes to prove what a lot of us in the industry have been saying for years - the Irish media doesn't have a clue when it gets beyond the press releases.

Regards...jmcc

mikom

Nolars wrote: »

load a balls. up to 800,000 homes & business. so practically screw rural areas.

Good luck collecting the broadcasting tax, Rabbite.
I may pay "up to" 1 Euro.

Nolars

mikom wrote: »

Good luck collecting the broadcasting tax, Rabbite.
I may pay "up to" 1 Euro.

1 Euro ah now thats a bit much

If they could actually give me a min of 30mbps I would have no problem with the 160 euro fee.

But hey we can always dream.

CelticTigress

I'd love it if we could make the broadcast tax conditional upon the supply of decent broadband... after all it is supposed to be because we are all listening to radio and watching tv on our computers and phones - well without broadband that's not possible. They can't have it both ways.

funnyname

funnyname wrote: »

Maybe they actually realise that it's not all about headline download speed and are formulating a plan to have a minimum for upload and latency as well.

I was only having the craic saying that, of course they are fudging it.

Anytime you hear Pat Rabbitte being interviewed on the subject he seems to think mobile is indeed the answer.

I sent him an email awhile ago pointing out what Finland were capable of doing and also espousing the merits of FWA as the solution for 30% of people not lucky to live within a cable catchment or 1km of an eircom exchange.

He replied with a generic answer mentioning the digital mapping exercise needing EU clearence for state intervention and how Finland had a different population density, marketing and regulatory systems and how this meant that the market created 95% of the rollout with the state looking after the last 5%.

bealtine

funnyname wrote: »

He replied with a generic answer mentioning the digital mapping exercise needing EU clearence for state intervention and how Finland had a different population density, marketing and regulatory systems and how this meant that the market created 95% of the rollout with the state looking after the last 5%.

There's only one word for that utter bollox...


http://www.tradingeconomics.com/finland/population-density-people-per-sq-km-wb-data.html
The Population density (people per sq. km) in Finland was last reported at 17.65 in 2010.

It's true more of them live in villages but hey guess what:

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ireland/population-density-people-per-sq-km-wb-data.html

The Population density (people per sq. km) in Ireland was last reported at 64.95 in 2010


Guess which one has a higher population density?

funnyname

Indeed, sure you don't need to pull out those stats to know that we have a higher pop density.

I presume it's stock answer from the civil servants, attached is the full letter I was sent which Pat kindly took a few seconds out of his day to sign.

bealtine wrote: »

There's only one word for that utter bollox...


http://www.tradingeconomics.com/finland/population-density-people-per-sq-km-wb-data.html
The Population density (people per sq. km) in Finland was last reported at 17.65 in 2010.

It's true more of them live in villages but hey guess what:

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ireland/population-density-people-per-sq-km-wb-data.html

The Population density (people per sq. km) in Ireland was last reported at 64.95 in 2010


Guess which one has a higher population density?

ItHurtsWhenIP

bealtine wrote: »

There's only one word for that utter bollox...

Don't shoot me - but isn't that two words!!! :P

bealtine

funnyname wrote: »

Indeed, sure you don't need to pull out those stats to know that we have a higher pop density.

Never let mere facts get in the way of a good excuse...

clohamon

Now Colm O'Neill, CEO of BT Ireland, has cast doubt on the ability to deliver the promised speeds.
"I think physics and economics will say that 30 megabits per second to all rural areas is not feasible," said Mr O'Neill.
Mr O'Neill said that he thought the Government would face "intractable" difficulties in delivering such fibre speeds to every rural premises in the country.
"I think that (Communications) Minister (Pat) Rabbitte has moderated his view on that," he said. "The minister has indicated that coverage and adequate services, rather than pure speed is what counts and that's important."

"If you could deliver even three megabits per second reliably to everyone, that would genuinely be a step forward. Two to three megabits is generally accepted across the EU as the level at which you can access most services without flaws."

http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/government-broadband-plan-for-rural-areas-isnt-feasible-29437463.html

That's not exactly what was "generally accepted" in the National Broadband Plan.

"A socio-economic analysis undertaken by independent experts, in conjunction with the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (DCENR),.....noted that most high speed applications currently require download speeds of around 15Mbps to 20Mbps."

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyres/1EA7B477-741B-4B74-A08E-6350135C32D2/0/NBP.pdf

uncle_sam_ie

Couldn't the government just give companies like Eircom and UPC huge tax incentives to invest in the area's outside Ireland's major cities? Someone has to step in because, right now no gives a dam.

bealtine

clohamon wrote: »

That's not exactly what was "generally accepted" in the National Broadband Plan.

wonder what he's pitching for...CEOs only get involved when they are selling something...

clohamon

bealtine wrote: »

wonder what he's pitching for...CEOs only get involved when they are selling something...

I suspect they have the ESB job in the bag already, if it ever goes ahead.

AlanS181824

For fecks sake! :rolleyes:




On a completely irrelevant side-note, noticed this spellling error on the Revenue website.

"VAT is a tax on consumer spending. It is collected by VAT-registered traders on their supplies of goods and services effected within zthe State."
:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

Why do I notice these things.... o_0

irishpancake

CelticTigress wrote: »

I'd love it if we could make the broadcast tax conditional upon the supply of decent broadband... after all it is supposed to be because we are all listening to radio and watching tv on our computers and phones - well without broadband that's not possible. They can't have it both ways.

I hate to say it.. ..

but oh yes they can....and they will....

and because we are a supine and downcast People....

we will suck it up!!!

Sometimes I think we like it...

Cheerful Spring

clohamon wrote: »

Now Colm O'Neill, CEO of BT Ireland, has cast doubt on the ability to deliver the promised speeds.
"I think physics and economics will say that 30 megabits per second to all rural areas is not feasible," said Mr O'Neill.
Mr O'Neill said that he thought the Government would face "intractable" difficulties in delivering such fibre speeds to every rural premises in the country.
"I think that (Communications) Minister (Pat) Rabbitte has moderated his view on that," he said. "The minister has indicated that coverage and adequate services, rather than pure speed is what counts and that's important."

"If you could deliver even three megabits per second reliably to everyone, that would genuinely be a step forward. Two to three megabits is generally accepted across the EU as the level at which you can access most services without flaws."

http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/government-broadband-plan-for-rural-areas-isnt-feasible-29437463.html
That's not exactly what was "generally accepted" in the National Broadband Plan.
Quote:
"A socio-economic analysis undertaken by independent experts, in conjunction with the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources (DCENR),.....noted that most high speed applications currently require download speeds of around 15Mbps to 20Mbps."

Pat Rabbitte was probably told how much it would cost them to provide broadband speeds of 30 meg to everyone and he likely said no way we can pay that.

Everyone in Ireland should have access to the internet. That is a priority. I agree with that.

Speeds of 3 meg is simply not good enough though. I have six meg and videos constantly buffer after six o clock and rarely load.

2 meg is fine for browsing the web, but for other things like gaming, uploading videos and watching videos on the internet, doing business, working from home that speed is not fine.

irishpancake

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Pat Rabbitte was probably told how much it would cost them to provide broadband speeds of 30 meg to everyone and he likely said no way we can pay that.

Everyone in Ireland should have access to the internet. That is a priority. I agree with that.

Speeds of 3 meg is simply not good enough though. I have six meg and videos constantly buffer after six o clock and rarely load.

2 meg is fine for browsing the web, but for other things like gaming, uploading videos and watching videos on the internet, doing business, working from home that speed is not fine.

I am streaming Netflix[America], using Hola unblocker and accelerator, and my BB is Vodafone at Home, in rural Westmeath, my d/l speed is just 1.7Mb [ at a stretch] on an up to 3Mb line....still using my old eircom router, the Netopia....

Exchange about 5/6 miles away.........but it's watchable, HD not possible, but very good SD with no buffering...., as good as my TV, [which is Sky SD with an old Pace Box],

I set my Netflix video quality setting to Best in Manage Video Quality...

BTW, I am also able to stream BBC iPlayer, ITV Player, Hulu, Pandora, and many others....

So, I don't know, my contention could be quite low, in this area, would that explain it??


[Sky is gettin the boot shortly.]

watty

No way is 1.7Mbps as good as good SD, even in MPEG4. Comparing digital sources is difficult without side by side of same content. Using MPEG4 1.7Mbps is on average better than poorer Sky SD channels, but can't do peaks. CBR is poorer on fast movement and scence changes than VBR used in a Statistical Multiplexed DTT or DVB-S or DVB-C. Sky SD is MPEG2 so needs a shade more than twice bitrate than MPEG4, but quality & bitrate varies hugely between satellite channels.

irishpancake

watty wrote: »

No way is 1.7Mbps as good as good SD, even in MPEG4. Comparing digital sources is difficult without side by side of same content. Using MPEG4 1.7Mbps is on average better than poorer Sky SD channels, but can't do peaks. CBR is poorer on fast movement and scence changes than VBR used in a Statistical Multiplexed DTT or DVB-S or DVB-C. Sky SD is MPEG2 so needs a shade more than twice bitrate than MPEG4, but quality & bitrate varies hugely between satellite channels.

Thanks for that watty, very good tech info there.

I certainly can't say anything to contradict it, but there is something about Netflix, set to Best Quality, it uses Ms SilverLight with it's own encoder, etc...

not saying I know any of this stuff, just quoting info from the web, like here:

http://alexzambelli.com/blog/2009/02/04/the-birth-of-smooth-streaming/

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3326731/1.html

Now, maybe none of that means anything at all, but for me, Netflix from US streams without buffering, no jerky movements, reasonably good when panning, like those cars moving, etc...

I would say, as good as SD, but I might not be aware, as I don't have HD yet, and the old sky box is the old Pace, which was one of the best, IMO....

and of course there is whatever Hola "acceleration" does...

it does something anyway, cos trying a Magnet speedtest with it enabled, just goes off the scale on download, showing in excess of 50Kb..crazy stuff...and shows no upload result at all....



Turn off acceleration, you get this:

watty

Silverlight is basically MPEG4 wrapped in DRM. Currently MPEG4 is as good as it gets for SD. The next generation encoders may offer significant saving on HD, especially higher than current HD and Stereoscopic HD (so called 3D), but probably not so much improvement on SD.

If you blur fast movement and scene changes you can lower peak to average and scenes with little movement can encode well even at 0.5Mbps.

irishpancake

watty wrote: »

Silverlight is basically MPEG4 wrapped in DRM. Currently MPEG4 is as good as it gets for SD. The next generation encoders may offer significant saving on HD, especially higher than current HD and Stereoscopic HD (so called 3D), but probably not so much improvement on SD.

If you blur fast movement and scene changes you can lower peak to average and scenes with little movement can encode well even at 0.5Mbps.

Thanks, as I said I know nothing about this stuff, just what I read, and a little knowledge, etc....

But seriously, I watched S3/Ep 4 of Luther streaming on iPlayer, not sure what encoding it has, or what special stuff BBC does, but it streams as well as I would watch on SD normally, and I had that Hola magic stuff enabled...

I earlier had d/l Ep 3 from BBC Desktop Player, and it was not as good as the streaming one I watched later. I am puggled...

but it was not as good as Netflix, which never buffers for me, as I said...

the iPlayer did buffer, on a couple of occasions....so I don't know...

what about those speedtest results with this Hola acceleration turned on, what gives there??