5km advice (improve my times)

cullenswood

Alright guys,

Looking for some advice....

Took up running (kind of) back at the beginning of May as got roped into that Dublin Staff Relay here in work. Had not run any distance over 200m in about 15 years, and had never run 5km in my life. I used to play a bit of 5 a side every week, but that had also stopped.

I have all my workouts below, as you can see I am down to a about 23'30 for 5km, (did the race (24/05) in slightly faster time but the course was short).

I have been set a challenge by a mate to see who can run the fastest 5km by the end of September. I would like to get to a 21 mins, or less time by then.

My training has been pretty much non existant since May, (3 runs!), but I am going to start doing more now. Still would probably only manage three times a week due to work and family, so would really love some advice as to the best way to improve my time in just over two months, training three times a week.


Age: 36 Weight: c. 70kg

ThePiedPiper

Well Cullenswood,

With the constraints you're putting on it, only running 3 times a week, you're not going to maximise your potential, but if you train smart, you'll definitely improve your times.

Structure your week something like this, and if possible add in an extra day or two of easy running, even if its only 15 or 20 minutes.

Day 1: 1 mile warm-up, 2 miles a 5k pace, 1 mile warm down

Day 2: 10 x 400 metres with 2 minute recoveries

Day 3: Long slow run of at least 40 minutes. Slow means at least 5:20 per km based on your current level.

Don't make the mistake of doing all your training trying to constantly break that 5k record in training sessions. That's for the race.

cullenswood

RunForestRun wrote: »

Well Cullenswood,

With the constraints you're putting on it, only running 3 times a week, you're not going to maximise your potential, but if you train smart, you'll definitely improve your times.

Structure your week something like this, and if possible add in an extra day or two of easy running, even if its only 15 or 20 minutes.

Day 1: 1 mile warm-up, 2 miles a 5k pace, 1 mile warm down

Day 2: 10 x 400 metres with 2 minute recoveries

Day 3: Long slow run of at least 40 minutes. Slow means at least 5:20 per km based on your current level.

Don't make the mistake of doing all your training trying to constantly break that 5k record in training sessions. That's for the race.

Nice one, thanks for the reply. Yes I think I was falling into the trap of always just trying to run faster in my training. I know three times a week is not ideal and hopefully I can manage more later on.

Couple of quick questions...

Day 1: What pace should the warm up and warm down be done at...5:20? And the 5km pace, is that my target pace or what I can do now.

Day 2: The 10 x 400's...do I do these at max pace I can

Thanks very much for the advice so far

ThePiedPiper

Cullenswood,

5k isn't my preferred distance, so what I'm saying is just guidelines really.

However, I would suggest doing the tempo miles at close to your target 5k race pace, but not faster.

The 400 metre intervals should be at a pace that you can hold even on the 9th and 10th one. Don't go flat out, as you won't be able to hold this pace for the last few. 85 seconds might be appropriate. If you can do them all at 85 and have plenty in the tank, then you can think about running slightly faster the next time you do the session.

macinalli

+1 for the slow recovery runs. Even if this is just 20 mins when work, family etc is done for the day, you'll really feel the benefit. All training plans need a balance between hard & easy running, but you can't really do that with only 3 runs per week.

cullenswood

macinalli wrote: »

+1 for the slow recovery runs. Even if this is just 20 mins when work, family etc is done for the day, you'll really feel the benefit. All training plans need a balance between hard & easy running, but you can't really do that with only 3 runs per week.

Are you saying if I could manage 4 runs a week, two of these should be slow runs?

ThePiedPiper

Cullenswood, slow is a relative term, but just to give some context:

I've just checked my training log going back 3 years. Of the 10 fastest runs I've done in those years, 9 have been races, and the other just a 3k time trial. My 5k race pace is 5:40 per mile, best marathon pace 6:43 per mile. My average pace running is 7:20.

In a current typical week over the past couple of months, averaging around 70 miles per week, only about 7 of those will be at or faster than marathon race pace. Training for 5k is slightly different, but the importance of consistent running, improving your aerobic threshold, and conditioning is much more beneficial than increased speed in training.

macinalli

cullenswood wrote: »

Are you saying if I could manage 4 runs a week, two of these should be slow runs?

Yes. If you try and run all of them fast then you'll find that you're not really recovering between runs. This can mean that your legs are tired when you start your next training session and this can lead to problems. For example, you may not be able to hold the pace in your 400's, meaning that you're not getting the benefit that you should from the session. In the worst case scenarios you'll just get injured as you're not allowing tired muscles to recover.

cullenswood

Thought I'd write an update, and maybe ask people if I am doing the right things.

I have managed to up my workouts to 4 a week and am currently doing this:

Sunday: 10km easy pace (5:07 per km)
Monday: 6km easy pace (5:07 per km)
Tuesday: Rest
Wednesday: Intervals (4x400m at about 75secs)
Thursday: Tempo (1.5km slow, 3 km 4:20 per km, 1.5km slow)
Friday: Rest
Saturday: Rest.

I am managing the Sunday and the Monday fairly well.
The intervals are a killer, no way could I do eight. Am going to keep it at 4 again next week and then up it to 5.
Tempo run is tough enough, was slowing a little towards the end of the fast part but managed to keep it up fairly well.
Legs can be very tired at times - in the evenings I try and do some stretches or foam rolling.

Race is on 21st September. I was targetting sub 22min, but reckon I will be quite happy with 22:30 now.

Any advice on how I am going, or is that workout ok?

(Not sure if this should be moved to training logs?)

Ceepo

cullenswood wrote: »

Thought I'd write an update, and maybe ask people if I am doing the right things.

I have managed to up my workouts to 4 a week and am currently doing this:

Sunday: 10km easy pace (5:07 per km)
Monday: 6km easy pace (5:07 per km)
Tuesday: Rest
Wednesday: Intervals (4x400m at about 75secs)
Thursday: Tempo (1.5km slow, 3 km 4:20 per km, 1.5km slow)
Friday: Rest
Saturday: Rest.

I am managing the Sunday and the Monday fairly well.
The intervals are a killer, no way could I do eight. Am going to keep it at 4 again next week and then up it to 5.
Tempo run is tough enough, was slowing a little towards the end of the fast part but managed to keep it up fairly well.
Legs can be very tired at times - in the evenings I try and do some stretches or foam rolling.

Race is on 21st September. I was targetting sub 22min, but reckon I will be quite happy with 22:30 now.

Any advice on how I am going, or is that workout ok?

(Not sure if this should be moved to training logs?)

Slow down there bud.
You are running waaayyyy to fast.
5.07 is not an easy run and there is no need to be doing 75 sec 400.

You would be better of doing 95 sec x 10/12 reps. And your slow runs by at least another 30 sec per k.
Also don't do your tempo run the day after your session. You need to recover for that session

You will fine a big difference in the way you feel.

cullenswood

Ceepo wrote: »

Slow down there bud.
You are running waaayyyy to fast.
5.07 is not an easy run and there is no need to be doing 75 sec 400.

You would be better of doing 95 sec x 10/12 reps. And your slow runs by at least another 30 sec per k.

You will fine a big difference in the way you feel.

Oh right, can't get the hang of this running slower mullarkey! Feel as if I am not achieving anything when I do it. As I say the 10km I did last weekend (the furthest I have ever ran in my life - had previously been doing 8km for the LSR) was done at that pace and I didn't feel I was pushing myself.

Just wondering, if I slow down those two easy runs, and the intervals, where am I going to be picking up speed for when the race comes around?

Ceepo

cullenswood wrote: »

Oh right, can't get the hang of this running slower mullarkey! Feel as if I am not achieving anything when I do it. As I say the 10km I did last weekend (the furthest I have ever ran in my life - had previously been doing 8km for the LSR) was done at that pace and I didn't feel I was pushing myself.

Just wondering, if I slow down those two easy runs, and the intervals, where am I going to be picking up speed for when the race comes around?

Valid question
If you run 12 x 400 in 100sec of 1 Min rec will be ball park 22.30 give or take .

Valid question back to you
75 sec.400 is 5 min mile pace . Will you be running that pace in your race ?

cullenswood

Ceepo wrote: »

Valid question
If you run 12 x 400 in 100sec of 1 Min rec will be ball park 22.30 give or take .

Valid question back to you
75 sec.400 is 5 min mile pace . Will you be running that pace in your race ?

No, would definitely not be running that pace in the race. I was obviiusly mistaken, but I thought the intervals were there to build up pace, and that if your body was used to doing these type of sprints, it would help build up overall pace. (I am only learning this running business!).

Not sure what you mean by the bit in bold above.

Ceepo

cullenswood wrote: »

No, would definitely not be running that pace in the race. I was obviiusly mistaken, but I thought the intervals were there to build up pace, and that if your body was used to doing these type of sprints, it would help build up overall pace. (I am only learning this running business!).

Not sure what you mean by the bit in bold above.

Of course there is a place for speed development,
But as you are new to running you should be trying 1st to build aerobic capacity (the easy pace stuff)
2nd try to increase aerobic power (that would be the likes of the 400's as above)
Then and only then the speed work,

Think of a cherry cake, speed work is the cherry on top of the cake, its not the cake,

You are not alone in training this way and i suppose it goes against what we might think is the right way to get faster, but trust me,
its the way to go.

Best of luck in your race

rom

Ceepo wrote: »

Of course there is a place for speed development,
But as you are new to running you should be trying 1st to build aerobic capacity (the easy pace stuff)
2nd try to increase aerobic power (that would be the likes of the 400's as above)
Then and only then the speed work,

Think of a cherry cake, speed work is the cherry on top of the cake, its not the cake,

You are not alone in training this way and i suppose it goes against what we might think is the right way to get faster, but trust me,
its the way to go.

Best of luck in your race

Great advise here. All it takes is time to improve and to stick with the process. Personally I use HR to see if I am easy running (some people are against that) but it is hard to explain easy running in any other way tbh. HR can be a great guide when starting off.

Personally my own 5k times have gone from 23:10 to 17:52 in 2 years with the advise above and hard work. There is a lot more to it. Read some good books on running and you will be flying. John Hadd pdf is also worth a read.

cullenswood

Thanks for all the advice guys, will take it into account, and slow down my easy runs, space out the tempo and interval (not consecutive days), and also slow down on the intervals!! Counter-intuitive to me but you guys seem to know what you are talking about.

That is some improvement in 2 years ROM. Not sure I could ever get down to sub 18, but I will be very happy if I ever get down to sub 20. It will probably be tough to get there training only 4 times a week, but I am enjoying it all so far and will keep it all going.

Corkie100

Ceepo wrote: »

Slow down there bud.
You are running waaayyyy to fast.
5.07 is not an easy run and there is no need to be doing 75 sec 400.

You would be better of doing 95 sec x 10/12 reps. And your slow runs by at least another 30 sec per k.
Also don't do your tempo run the day after your session. You need to recover for that session

You will fine a big difference in the way you feel.

+1 on this. My 5km time is bit faster than yours at the moment and I do my 10 x 400 session at 90 seconds and it's taken a long time to be able to hold that pace for all ten.
'1 min rec' means 1 minute recovery between each 400, by the way- you made reference to that above.
Also, are you doing all your runs on your own? The type of training you are doing would be happening in a lot of clubs I think, and the speed work is always easier with others around you, others will help keep the pace, and you'll keep going for more reps if everyone else is (if he can, i can.... kind of mentality!) So consider joining a club if it is at all possible for you.

cullenswood

Skipped my Long Slow Run at the weekend (not intentional, got lazy about it for the first time, so was annoyed with myself!). Did a time trial to get my focus back, and figure out where I was. 5km in 21:12, so that was faster than where I thought I'd be at.

Just under four weeks left to the race so going take on the points mentioned above for the next three weeks, and then take it very easy in the week before the race (maybe just one run).

Last question for now though....I was doing my tempo and intervals on consecutive days which was what was probably killing me. Training 4 times a week means I have to do at least one consective go. Would the following be the best way:

Sunday: 10km easy pace
Monday: 6km easy pace
Tuesday: Rest
Wednesday: Intervals (7x400m at about 90secs)
Thursday: Rest
Friday: Tempo (1.5km slow, 3 km 4:10 per km, 1.5km slow)
Saturday: Rest.

Again guys, thanks for all the advice

slingerz

cullenswood wrote: »

Skipped my Long Slow Run at the weekend (not intentional, got lazy about it for the first time, so was annoyed with myself!). Did a time trial to get my focus back, and figure out where I was. 5km in 21:12, so that was faster than where I thought I'd be at.

Just under four weeks left to the race so going take on the points mentioned above for the next three weeks, and then take it very easy in the week before the race (maybe just one run).

Last question for now though....I was doing my tempo and intervals on consecutive days which was what was probably killing me. Training 4 times a week means I have to do at least one consective go. Would the following be the best way:

Sunday: 10km easy pace
Monday: 6km easy pace
Tuesday: Rest
Wednesday: Intervals (7x400m at about 90secs)
Thursday: Rest
Friday: Tempo (1.5km slow, 3 km 4:10 per km, 1.5km slow)
Saturday: Rest.

Again guys, thanks for all the advice

Are you doing any races in conjunction with your training?

cullenswood

slingerz wrote: »

Are you doing any races in conjunction with your training?

No, my first race is on 21st September. I had done the Dublin Staff Relay back in May, but that wasn't a full course. Am new to this, so have never run a race before.

slingerz

thats fair enough too dont know what sort of times/goals you have in mind but a 5k time under 25 mins is solid enough going to anyone doing their first 5k would be happy with IMO

Ceepo

cullenswood wrote: »

Skipped my Long Slow Run at the weekend (not intentional, got lazy about it for the first time, so was annoyed with myself!). Did a time trial to get my focus back, and figure out where I was. 5km in 21:12, so that was faster than where I thought I'd be at.

Just under four weeks left to the race so going take on the points mentioned above for the next three weeks, and then take it very easy in the week before the race (maybe just one run).

Last question for now though....I was doing my tempo and intervals on consecutive days which was what was probably killing me. Training 4 times a week means I have to do at least one consective go. Would the following be the best way:

Sunday: 10km easy pace
Monday: 6km easy pace
Tuesday: Rest
Wednesday: Intervals (7x400m at about 90secs)
Thursday: Rest
Friday: Tempo (1.5km slow, 3 km 4:10 per km, 1.5km slow)
Saturday: Rest.

Again guys, thanks for all the advice

You might be better doing the interval session on Monday. It will allow extra recovery time.
Also for the last week there I'd no need to cut back to only 1 run.
If your race is on at the weekend you could still do the sesion on Monday. Maybe 400 x 4/5. Do an easy run 5k on Thursday at an easy pace with a few strides in it. And this should set you up for the race.
Re easy paced runs
5.45 per k would be more suitable than 5.07 pace

Best of luck

pico84

My opinion would be you need to start doing the runs like this


Monday: 6km easy pace
Tuesday: Rest
Wednesday: Intervals (7x400m at about 90secs)
Thursday: Rest
Friday: 10km easy pace
Saturday: Rest.
Sunday: Tempo (1.5km slow, 3 km 4:10 per km, 1.5km slow)

Basically an ever second day system because the way you're currently doing it you're still doing your hard runs clumped together. youd recover as such a lot more too on the slower runs. I find doing it this way makes it alot easier to get out the door too

eldiva

pico84 wrote: »

My opinion would be you need to start doing the runs like this


Monday: 6km easy pace
Tuesday: Rest
Wednesday: Intervals (7x400m at about 90secs)
Thursday: Rest
Friday: 10km easy pace
Saturday: Rest.
Sunday: Tempo (1.5km slow, 3 km 4:10 per km, 1.5km slow)

Basically an ever second day system because the way you're currently doing it you're still doing your hard runs clumped together. youd recover as such a lot more too on the slower runs. I find doing it this way makes it alot easier to get out the door too

This is quite a good structure layout to a training week.

You could also look at variations for your interval sessions instead of always doing 400's.

You could do; 3x800 (2min30 recovery) 3x600 (2min15 recovery) 3x400 (2min recovery) or also do a pyramid session.

Or also do a pyramid session; 3-5 min warm-up, 1st rep 30sec High Intensity, 1min Low Intensity, 2nd rep 45sec HI, 1min LI, 3rd rep 60sec HI, 1min LI, 4th rep 90sec HI, 1min LI, 5th rep 60sec HI, 1min LI, 6th rep 45 sec HI, 1min LI, 7th rep 30sec HI, 1min LI then 3-5min cooldown

cullenswood

Hey guys, just an update, race is next Saturday. Have kept the training up, eased off on the intervals, (about 85 seconds now - 1 minute rest) and was doing six of them so was happy enough with that. Slowed down the easy runs also, and kept the tempo as per above.

Was thinking of skipping the LSR on Sunday and just doing a couple of easy runs next week as want to be well rested for it. Legs are still tired at times, so don't want that coming into the race.

Plan is to keep well hydrated and just eat normally for the week and give it a good lash. Getting as close if not beating 21min is the ultimate goal if all goes well, but realistically think it will be about 21m30.

cullenswood

Did the race in 20 mins 8 seconds. Delighted with that, cheers for the tips everyone. Sore all over after it. Going to rest for the week and start all over again and try to break the 20 min barrier this year hopefully

ecoli

Congrats on the PB. Knocked it out of the park. Keep it up