Mottes

cfuserkildare

Hey folks,

You know how you see the same model everywhere after you buy a new car?
Well now I am noticing Mottes and Mounds everywhere I go.

Currently am trying to find out as much about Rodanstown Motte as I can.
Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much information available.

Any help would be appreciated.

Meathlass

Is there any particular information you are looking for?

I presume you've already checked the RMP? There's no mention of Rodanstown townland in Co. Kildare though.

cfuserkildare

Hi Meathlass,

There doesn't seem to be much information at all,

A relative of the owner of the house beside it said that the mound was built at the same time as the house, but that seems kinda doubtfull (late 1700s).

Also Rodanstown is in County Meath, just north of Kilcock.

Meathlass

There's a ringfort in Rodanstown which is just across the road from a large house. The only other record of an archaeology site in Rodanstown is the church.

I'd pulled up the RMP info but then archaeology.ie crashed, there's a photograph and a map though if you want to check yourself to make sure it's the right one. There's a short description with it as well. Judging from the description and the photograph it just looks like a normal ringfort so doubt there will be any additional information. There's hundreds in Meath alone.

Unless you've got a new site, which would be cool, especially if it's a motte.

Meathlass

This is the description. It seems to be a platform ringfort which is slightly more unusual.

Raised circular area defined by scarp (diam. 39m) with outer fosse surrounded by two earthen banks with associated fosses. Outer bank and fosse survive SSW-NNE. Original entrance at SE.

Kicking Bird

The image attached below is an aerial view of this monument courtesy of Google Earth:

cfuserkildare

Hey folks,

Yep, thats the 1, again information is scant, and its not on excavations.ie because it has never been excavated.

The church is kinda unusual regarding shape and remarkable state of preservation of some of the headstones, however the majority are broken.

I did find that in the field next to the cemetery there is a curious depression. I wonder what thats about?

Cheers.

Kicking Bird

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Hey folks,

Yep, thats the 1, again information is scant, and its not on excavations.ie because it has never been excavated.

The church is kinda unusual regarding shape and remarkable state of preservation of some of the headstones, however the majority are broken.

I did find that in the field next to the cemetery there is a curious depression. I wonder what thats about?

Cheers.

I wonder is that depression in the adjacent field a medieval fish pond,perhaps?

Kicking Bird

Take a look at the link below;it's an excerpt from a study of such monuments(see the 'RINGWORKS' section where it mentions Rodanstown):


http://www.castleduncan.com/forum/index.php?/topic/1305-earth-and-timber-castles-david-sweetman/.

Meathlass

Kicking Bird wrote: »

Take a look at the link below;it's an excerpt from a study of such monuments(see the 'RINGWORKS' section where it mentions Rodanstown):


http://www.castleduncan.com/forum/index.php?/topic/1305-earth-and-timber-castles-david-sweetman/.

Interesting. It's also not uncommon for ringworks to have originally been ringforts. Without excavation it's impossible to know if it's a reused site or not. The fact though that Rodanstown has a medieval church nearby is strong evidence that it's a Anglo-Norman site.

cfuserkildare

Just on that thought Meathlass,

Rathmore was a re-used site dating back to at least 248AD,

Sometimes the dates can surprise us.

Also regarding the deppression in the field across the road from the church, no-one is to mention DUCK POND, otherwise they will receive a frowny face (in reference to my post relating to the item found behind Knockrobin in Wicklow).

Only messin.

Cheers.

slowburner

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Just on that thought Meathlass,

Rathmore was a re-used site dating back to at least 248AD,

Sometimes the dates can surprise us.

Also regarding the deppression in the field across the road from the church, no-one is to mention DUCK POND, otherwise they will receive a frowny face (in reference to my post relating to the item found behind Knockrobin in Wicklow).

Only messin.

Cheers.

Curiously enough...
There was an excavation not too far from the Knockrobin duck pond recently (same townland). A very interesting bullaun stone turned up. I haven't got much more info than that, but I will say that the duck pond and bullaun site are very definitely not related.

cfuserkildare

Whilst on this subject,

Does anybody know if the small mound in the field beside the medevil church is genuine?

Its about 20 yards from the burial ground, 5 yards from the road, 6 feet tall maybe 12 feet across, and can't really be seen from Google Maps due to the trees in the field.

There seems to be a bench either side of the mound, in amongst the sheep that reside in the field.

cfuserkildare

Anybody found any more information recently?

Simon.d

Is there much evidence of pre-norman motte castles in Ireland?

There's a record from 1311 that refers to "an old deserted moat" down here in Waterford that was the Stronghold of an Ostman by the name of Reginald Macgillemory in 1171, and refered to as Renaudescastle..

The same passage gives a pretty accurate position for the motte (on the bank of the River Suir opposite Dunbrody), so somewhere within Faithlegg parish. This parish does indeed contain a motte that's associated with Faithlegg castle, which gets me wondering as to what evidence there was for Ostmen using (and building) mottes as defensive positions prior to the Arrival of the Normans..

http://aerialarchaeology.blogspot.ie/2013/07/faithlegg-castle.html

Meathlass

Judging by the link for the aerial photos I wonder is that a moated site rather than a motte? It looks rather square to me.

Anyway, by 1311 a motte built in 1171 would have been deserted. There was considerable trade between Waterford and the rest of Europe and Norman England in the decades before the Anglo-Normans arrived in 1167, with the main force arriving in 1169, so they may have built some early fortifications. Very difficult to date a motte or ringwork to 1165 rather than 1167 or 1169 though especially without excavation.

Simon.d

Meathlass wrote: »

Judging by the link for the aerial photos I wonder is that a moated site rather than a motte? It looks rather square to me.

Here's the NMS listing (WA010-004----):

Description: Situated on level ground towards the top of a gentle W-facing slope. An earthen mound (diam. of base 25m WNW-ESE; 24m NNE-SSW; H 3m at SSW to 3.75m at NNE) is slightly dished at the summit (diam. of top 14.3m NNE-SSW; 13.8m WNW-ESE), but has no evidence of a fosse. A field to the N, known locally as 'the village', produced 'red brick' during land reclamation. A tower house site (WA010-005----) is adjacent to the E and Faithleg church (WA010-003001-) is c. 240m to N. It is planted with deciduous trees.

Although your point has gotten me thinking as to how well discriminated moated sites and mottes are in records from the period.. i.e. Was the term moat (or it's latin equivalent) interchangeable for both classes in the written language of the time?

Dating-wise it's understandably difficult to measure a five year period of change from the archaeology, the record just got me thinking was there any known irish motte sites that have been dated to before 1169? i.e. 1100? And more specifically were Ostmen known to have used this (originally 10th century) defensive technology prior to its widespread introduction by the anglo-normans?

Meathlass

Simon.d wrote: »

Was the term moat (or it's latin equivalent) interchangeable for both classes in the written language of the time?

Yes, I think so. There seems to have been a wide variation and use of the term 'moat' and similar terms like 'fort' which can cause confusion. The term 'motte and bailey' is relatively modern. The phrases mota and castelleum were more likely to be used in medieval times.

was there any known irish motte sites that have been dated to before 1169? i.e. 1100?

Since the site type originated in northern Europe and in particular Normandy and Anjou in the 10th century which had a heavy Viking presence it's not inconceivable that one of these Ostmen could have introduced the site type to Ireland but if so we have no documentary evidence for this. (I've read a paper claiming that mottes are Viking in origin and it was the Vikings who brought them to Normanday in the early 10th century whereupon the Normans appropriated them but I can't remember the reference - it's not a widely held theory anyway.)

Their span was between 985 (France) through to the 11th century (England) concluding in Ireland in the early 14th century. They were superseded by stone castles and changing fashions in castle design.

I know there's also some examples in Ireland that were thought to have been built by local Gaelic lords pre 1169 (possibly Athlone). Will have to dig out my thesis when I go home!

Gee Bag

Simon.d wrote: »

Although your point has gotten me thinking as to how well discriminated moated sites and mottes are in records from the period.. i.e. Was the term moat (or it's latin equivalent) interchangeable for both classes in the written language of the time?

AFAIK the English word moat (i.e. a defensive ditch) is derived from the earlier French word motte (a big earthen mound), probably because both terms related to earthworks. I don't know if they the terms were interchangeable in the medieval period but I would suspect not as they have very different meanings.

By the by, large number of motte and moat sites in Ireland were mislabelled by the various editions of the Ordnance Survey as they used the terms interchangeably.

Dating-wise it's understandably difficult to measure a five year period of change from the archaeology, the record just got me thinking was there any known irish motte sites that have been dated to before 1169? i.e. 1100? And more specifically were Ostmen known to have used this (originally 10th century) defensive technology prior to its widespread introduction by the anglo-normans?

There was the Thingmote in Dublin, which was located in the grounds of Trinity College. This was a large terraced mound which seved as the site as a traditional Norse annual assembley place (thing being an old Germanic word for assembley. The Tynwald and Tynwald day in the Isle of Man is a continuation of this tradition.

The earliest reference to this mound is in 1240 (I think) and the last is in the mid 1640s before it was levelled as the city expanded in this area. The name 'thingmotte' for the mound probably came into use after the Norman conquest as motte is a Norman-french term. However, the mound itself probably dates from before the Norman conquest as their feudal system wasn't big on giving the people a say in running things.

With regard to other pre-Norman mottes in Ireland I can't think of any examples. In the 12th century warfare in Ireland was still very much based on raiding and pillaging rather than the Norman model of rapid occupation and conquest. Some of the larger, more complex ringforts (e.g. Barronstown, Co.Meath) and crannogs (Lagore) would have served a military function similar to a motte prior to the Norman invasion.

slowburner

Gee Bag wrote: »

AFAIK the English word moat (i.e. a defensive ditch) is derived from the earlier French word motte (a big earthen mound), probably because both terms related to earthworks. I don't know if they the terms were interchangeable in the medieval period but I would suspect not as they have very different meanings.

Two natural features in county Wicklow use variants of the term 'motte'. A mountain now known as Croghan Moira used to be known as 'the Mottie' (Price). Across the Vale of Avoca is a massive granite erratic perched on top of a hill. It is known today as 'the Motte' stone (pronounced 'Mottie') and was shown on the OSI historical and other maps as the 'Motto Stone'.
The two are within view of each other.
I can understand the application of motte to the mountain because of it's shape (from crúachan, croagh etc.) but how a boulder adopted the term is a bit of a puzzle.

Simon.d

Gee Bag wrote: »

There was the Thingmote in Dublin, which was located in the grounds of Trinity College. This was a large terraced mound which seved as the site as a traditional Norse annual assembley place (thing being an old Germanic word for assembley. The Tynwald and Tynwald day in the Isle of Man is a continuation of this tradition.

Saw this article yesterday and it got me thinking as to how common these sites may have been... Could it be possible that Reginald McGillemory's "old deserted motte" referred to in 1311, could itself have been a structure akin to the Thing-motte?

17th century depiction of the Thingmotte: