UK soldier and veteran suicides 'outstrip Afghan deaths'

SoulandForm

Cant say that Im overly surprised at this still it should open some eyes here. Its time for a 32 county ban people joining the British Army.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23259865

"More British soldiers and veterans took their own lives in 2012 than died fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan over the same period.

BBC Panorama learned that 21 serving soldiers killed themselves last year, along with 29 veterans.

The Afghanistan death toll was 44, of whom 40 died in action.

Some of the soldiers' families say the men did not get enough support. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) said every suicide was a "tragedy".

The Panorama programme obtained the figure of 21 through a Freedom of Information request to the MoD.

The MoD said that rates of suicide and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) within the serving military were lower than comparative rates in the civilian population.

Seven serving soldiers have been confirmed as having killed themselves last year, and inquests are pending for a further 14 deaths where suicide is suspected.

The British government, unlike its American counterpart, does not record the suicide rate among ex-soldiers.

But Panorama has independently established that at least 29 veterans took their own lives in 2012.

It wrote to every coroner in the country to ask for the names of soldiers and veterans who killed themselves last year and also analysed newspaper reports of coroners' inquests...."

Sir Humphrey Appleby

A 32 county ban! what childish nonsense.
Firstly such a ban woulod be illegal under EU law, secondly what you ban next...access to "Brit" TV and newspapers?
I thought this mentality went out with "Burn everything British but their coal" era!

AlekSmart

Old and grey wrote: »

A 32 county ban! what childish nonsense.
Firstly such a ban woulod be illegal under EU law, secondly what you ban next...access to "Brit" TV and newspapers?
I thought this mentality went out with "Burn everything British but their coal" era!

+1 Old and Grey....

Nothing in the slightest new or incredible about this except to buttress some oul anti-Brit twaddle.

The reality is that for the vast majority of ordinary people,the killing of another human being is not something which comes naturally or easily.

Even when it occurs within the Military Scenario,it effects the individual Soldier,often in horrible torturous ways.

Soldiering is a job which has as it's raison d'etre,the killing of others,perhaps as a last resort,but one of the prime facets of the job nonetheless.

It is only since the Great War (1914-1918) that countries have started to readily recognise the cost to the survivors.

Prior to this,it was down to individual leaders such as Napoleon B and Charles 2nd,who built Royal Hospitals to cater for the huge amounts of physically and emotionally wounded victorious soldiers who had no place in their societies,once their killing abilities were no longer required.

The Irish Army has been no different in this regard,with plenty of rather dark and,as yet,unpublicised accounts of what our Soldiers returning from overseas duty in The Congo,Lebanon,Kosovo and, even our own Border Region,were expected to deal with.

The partaking in offensive military operations Is human nature at it's darkest and most powerful,almost always associated with the youthful belief in their indestructibility....It rapidly ages those young men and women who experience it.

Will it reduce the numbers of young men and women who want to experience it...NO it will not,and no amount of banning or outlawing elements of it will bring about whatever the OP wants.

As long as there are Humans on the Planet,there will be Army's and War's ...it's part of what we are.

Zambia

Men grow tired of sleep, love, singing, and dancing sooner than war.

Homer (900 BC-800 BC)

wes

I think its pretty well known that soldiers tend to get a bum deal. Perhaps better care is needed. After all, while I may disagree with the wars they were involved with, nonetheless they served there country, and its only fair that there country should look after them.

Sand

Probably says more for the reduced casualties/fighting in Afghanistan than anything else.

Suicide is a known issue for young men, both in and outside the military - The *annual* suicide rate among men in the UK is just under 17 per 100,000 population though it can vary by area and background: England's suicide rate is lower, Wales is higher, Scotland and Northern Ireland have a significantly higher suicide rate (just under 25 per 100,000 annually). Age group is a huge factor (for men in their 30s or early 40s in the UK the rate rises to as high as 54 per 100,000 in Northern Ireland, just over 50 in Scotland). To get a proper perspective on the suicide of British veterans you would need to weight the figures by checking where the British military primarily recruits from and the age profile of the veteran. Military organisations do tend to be better at recognizing the signs and providing support than wider society is and PTSD isn't just a military problem.

Essentially, the problem of suicide is complicated and difficult - it's not easy to see why men are so much more likely to do away with themselves than women are. But given your childish "solution" its probably likely you're not at all interested in it.

pablomakaveli

Well not surprised to see the OP using this issue to push their republican agenda.

But ignoring that it is an issue that's worth discussing but is t discussed enough. It's probably applicable to a lot of armies including our own. Life in the military is pretty hard and challenging at times and can push even the best of us to their limits. More support for soldiers who struggle to cope is a definite requirement but its not always there unfortunately.

Ken.

Were all the personnel who killed themselves Irish or something. That's the only reason i could see for calling for a 32 county ban.

Zambia

On another thread I heard some doctor claimed that being in mortgage stress was causing suicides. So could being in mortgage stress be banned in 32 county's ?

Not to mention break ups ? Could we ban break ups in the 32 county's?

bradlente

Zambia wrote: »

On another thread I heard some doctor claimed that being in mortgage stress was causing suicides. So could being in mortgage stress be banned in 32 county's ?

Not to mention break ups ? Could we ban break ups in the 32 county's?

Until 1995 it was banned.Bring back dem good oul days I say.

Riddle101

Saw this today on Journal.ie. Some guy in the comments section was going on about having no sympathy because of them being apart of a terrorist army etc. Just your typical Brit hater really.

Sad to hear nonetheless.

Victor

SoulandForm wrote: »

Its time for a 32 county ban people joining the British Army.

Did you just post off-topic in the second line of your own thread?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23259865

"More British soldiers and veterans took their own lives in 2012 than died fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan over the same period.

This seems a little vague. Were these veterans of the war in Afghanistan or all wars combined or simply servicemen and ex-servicemen?

Why did they commit suicide. Was it due to the lasting effects of the war or because of some other reasons?

The MoD said that rates of suicide and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) within the serving military were lower than comparative rates in the civilian population.

I think this is rather misleading as many of those who commit suicide in the general population are chronic and/or binge substance abusers and people with other psychological or personality disorders that would exclude them from military life.

While many servicemen are known to be chronic and/or binge alcohol (less so other substances) abusers, the realities of deployments and other active service means such behaviour is somewhat checked through lack of availability, random drug / alcohol tests and military discipline.

Fratton Fred

I would love to hear how the OP plans to implement this ban.

everdead.ie

I think it's an even worse rate in the US however implementing a ban is silly some people have to join the army as their only way to work who are we to take their lively hoods from them.

US Stats once evry 65 minutes a US veteran commits suicide doesn't even inclue currently deployed troops http://www.forbes.com/sites/melaniehaiken/2013/02/05/22-the-number-of-veterans-who-now-commit-suicide-every-day/

murphaph

OP: should there also be a 32 county ban on becoming a vet or a farmer (both occupations with above average suicide rates) or is it just a pop at the the British Army you wanted to take?

I think it's actually pretty low of you to use suicide to further your own agenda on here.

seamus

It would be interesting to know if the armed forces are more likely to attract those who are prone to depression or suicide.

Perhaps people look to it to make their lives "mean" something, or to try and get some structure in their lives? Or simply people who've given up on life and see the potential KIA as a way to end their lives with meaning?

Jelle1880

seamus wrote: »

It would be interesting to know if the armed forces are more likely to attract those who are prone to depression or suicide.

Perhaps people look to it to make their lives "mean" something, or to try and get some structure in their lives? Or simply people who've given up on life and see the potential KIA as a way to end their lives with meaning?

I think a lot of the people who join think it's either a great way to serve their country (whatever that may mean) or learn a trade that may be of use further on in life.

Both reasonable expectations I'd say, but neither of them will prepare people for the daily horrors of war.

Add to that people coming back and expected to immediately integrate back into civilian life, without much (if any) support.

Sand

I've seen some commentary that highlights the British Army use of a drug called Lariam as a anti-malarial for training in Kenya. Apparently adverse reactions to it can have symptoms very similar to PTSD and if you chuck Lariam and Suicide Ideation into google quite a lot of stories and material come back - up to 25% of users can suffer "mild" reactions which include insomnia, headaches, dizziness and nightmares. Apparently the manufacturer Roche was forced to admit that psychiatric symptoms can continue long after treatment has ceased and can include depression, hallucinations and suicide ideation. I don't think you can point to any one thing and say "That's the primary cause" but its certainly an additional risk factor that people in the military can be instructed to take certain drugs which can have very serious, long term impact to their mental health.

Zambia

Larium is pretty bad I got those effects and they are weird. In general I just felt like crap. Would rather have malaria and that's not pleasant at all.

I am pretty sure the use of it has stoped.

Victor

SoulandForm wrote: »

BBC Panorama learned that 21 serving soldiers killed themselves last year, along with 29 veterans.

The Afghanistan death toll was 44, of whom 40 died in action."

British Army
129,450 regular and territorial
121,800 regular reserve

British military in Afghanistan
9,000

Cody Pomeray

Victor wrote: »

British Army
129,450 regular and territorial
121,800 regular reserve

British military in Afghanistan
9,000

What's the point?

So the risk is small, taken relative to the overall size of the army.

However the risk that does exist is greater than the danger of death in combat. If the British authorities are not adequately caring for their own people after they get home from combat, this implies another familiar hypocrisy at the root of UK defence policy.

I think the idea of a 32 county ban is over the top but I certainly don't think we should be doing anything but impelling Irish people to keep away from such a clownish body of individuals.

Victor

The risk of death in Afghanistan was 1 in 200 per year (44/9,000).

The risk of death to suicide for regular and territorial was at most 1 in 6,100 per year (21/129,450) - one probably needs to increase to account for Royal Navy and RAF personnel.

murphaph

The OP hasn't been back to this thread since she started it. Suffice to say it was just a sideswipe at the British Army and nothing more.