Changing a top in transition

dario28

Can anyone confirm the rules around changing a top in transition

I was planning on wearing a bike jersey and then change to my tri-top for the run ?

will I get DQ for a quick switcharoo ?

elvis jones

dario28 wrote: »

Can anyone confirm the rules around changing a top in transition

I was planning on wearing a bike jersey and then change to my tri-top for the run ?

will I get DQ for a quick switcharoo ?

Jaysus don't mention the war.

It seems that a DQ will only be dished out if you're a woman showing of your breasts.

If it was a DQ i seen at least 50 in Athlone last weeks that should have been given one.

RunMD

If you got some man boobies and long hair , it may be an issue ..

if not switch away

RacoonQueen

I thought men weren't meant to have exposed chest either?

elvis jones

dario28 wrote: »

Can anyone confirm the rules around changing a top in transition

I was planning on wearing a bike jersey and then change to my tri-top for the run ?

will I get DQ for a quick switcharoo ?

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I thought men weren't meant to have exposed chest either?

Thus why i said if the rules were properly inforced there would have been at least 50 DQ in Athlone !

Oryx

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I thought men weren't meant to have exposed chest either?

I have checked and this is true. Its something to be aware of, gentlemen.

Kurt Godel

Oryx wrote: »

I have checked and this is true. Its something to be aware of, gentlemen.

Can't see anything in da rules that defines a male changing his top in transition as "indecent exposure"? Incidentally, baring your torso on the run or bike is explicitly forbidden.

Rules
7. TRANSITION AREA CONDUCT:
7.1. General Rules:
h.) Nudity or indecent exposure is forbidden;

28.Compete with a bare torso; - Stop and Go when amended
- If not: DSQ

33.Nudity or indecent exposure; - DSQ

42.Crawl during the running segment; - DSQ

elvis jones

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Can't see anything in da rules that defines a male changing his top in transition as "indecent exposure"? Incidentally, baring your torso on the run or bike is explicitly forbidden.

Rules
7. TRANSITION AREA CONDUCT:
7.1. General Rules:
h.) Nudity or indecent exposure is forbidden;

28.Compete with a bare torso; - Stop and Go when amended
- If not: DSQ

33.Nudity or indecent exposure; - DSQ

42.Crawl during the running segment; - DSQ

`

It does not say no bare torso on bike/run......it says "comepte" which i would understand to also include T1 and T2 !

Kurt Godel

elvis jones wrote: »

`

It does not say no bare torso on bike/run......it says "comepte" which i would understand to also include T1 and T2 !

Maybe you need to have a closer look at the rules?

5. CYCLING CONDUCT:
5.1. General Rules:
(ii) Cycle with a bare torso;

6. RUNNING CONDUCT:
6.1. General Rules:
a.) The athletes will:
(iv) Not run with a bare torso;

Nothing mentioned about bare torso's in Transition.

elvis jones

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Maybe you need to have a closer look at the rules?

5. CYCLING CONDUCT:
5.1. General Rules:
(ii) Cycle with a bare torso;

6. RUNNING CONDUCT:
6.1. General Rules:
a.) The athletes will:
(iv) Not run with a bare torso;

Nothing mentioned about bare torso's in Transition.

Yes but what was posted said "compete". I only replied to what was posted !

Oryx

A bare male torso does constitute nudity. I'm not trying to add to any controversy here, but this is how it was clarified to me.

elvis jones

Oryx wrote: »

A bare male torso does constitute nudity. I'm not trying to add to any controversy here, but this is how it was clarified to me.

I'd agree with that in that all are treated in an equal manner.

Oryx

elvis jones wrote: »

I'd agree with that in that all are treated in an equal manner.

I think thats the idea.

hypersonic

elvis jones wrote: »

I'd agree with that in that all are treated in an equal manner.

so no need for a male/female categories or prizes so.
I think we need more prizes not less. maybe some prizes by weight category, number of years race entered etc, any excuse to hand out a prizes.

Kurt Godel

Oryx wrote: »

A bare male torso does constitute nudity. I'm not trying to add to any controversy here, but this is how it was clarified to me.

You'd know far more about the constitution of bare male torso's than I would Oryx, but that clarification seems like a right fudge (not saying you didn't get it from a reputably source, just it smacks of someone's personal definition of the rules to avoid "gender bias"). It'd be a brave official who DQ'd a man changing his top for "nudity"! Has any male been DQ'd for "bare torso" nudity while changing a top before?

Oryx

Kurt Godel wrote: »

You'd know far more about the constitution of bare male torso's than I would Oryx, but that clarification seems like a right fudge (not saying you didn't get it from a reputably source, just it smacks of someone's personal definition of the rules to avoid "gender bias"). It'd be a brave official who DQ'd a man changing his top for "nudity"! Has any male been DQ'd for "bare torso" nudity while changing a top before?

You'd have to ask TI that. This has come up because a TO applied the rules in an isolated case which gained huge publicity. TI now HAVE to be seen to apply the rules fairly and equally according to the ITU rulebook.

Kurt Godel

Oryx wrote: »

You'd have to ask TI that. This has come up because a TO applied the rules in an isolated case which gained huge publicity. TI now HAVE to be seen to apply the rules fairly and equally according to the ITU rulebook.

Hard cases make bad law. If the OP was to change his shirt in T2, and bare his chest, he'd be doing nothing wrong, according to the ITU rulebook (which already recognises gender and religious differences- female athletes from Muslims countries are allowed to have the body totally covered; males may not (must be uncovered from the shoulder down)).

The OP is looking for clarification, there's none in this thread for him. Rules are rules, interpretation is a different matter. If TI want to stand behind their official who DQ'd a female mid-packer for "nudity", having bare boobs while changing a top, that's their right. If they want to extend that rule to say men can't have bare tops in trans, because that's nudity by equality, that's a very strange interpretation of nudity, and I'm sure it would be easily challenged. As far as I can see no man has been DQ'd under ITU rules for baring his chest in trans.

Stupid rule anyway, nothing whatsoever wrong with nudity- "indecent exposure" (being prurient) would cover any mickey-wavers or pole-dance wannabes.

sconhome

AFAIK and I can't find the press release now, in the wake of Westportgate, TI stated that the rules apply to both men and women, no exposure in transition at all or on any part of the course.

OP the best thing to do is wear a one piece trisuit or if you really have to change your top, wear a skin base layer so you do not expose yourself.

Personally it is a pet hate that so many of the small rules are flexed / bent out of shape. It is a relatively small thing in the greater scheme of things but tem is the rules.

I note that TI are looking for a commitee on rule management from high level TO's too. There might be some clarification on the grey areas and enforcement.

Podge83

Jesus people. I suppose equality is king but a fella changing his top if he wants, or a lady changing her top while wearing a sports bra could not be deemed "indecent exposure" or indeed nudity. I know the script of the rules, but the recent high profile case (if I'm not mistaken) refers to a woman exposing her mams for an extended period ("almost a full minute") - Surely there was no need for this!!

There's a great word called discretion which should be used by the Officials.

Traditionally, a male exposed chest and female exposed breasts are looked on as different things. Extend this strict TI rule to the outside world and the Gardaí would be very busy right now!!

Oryx

Podge83 wrote: »

There's a great word called discretion which should be used by the Officials.

I think it is. The rules were always there, and there was never a problem. One woman causes an awful rukus because she doesn't understand the rules, TI have to make a statement, and hereafter, have to advise people on the rules in a way that is seen to be fair, or ladies like her will cry sexism. That is where we stand.

We see it on boards, posters try to rules lawyer. It happens in tri too. But I would expect that discretion will be used. There is such a thing as bad publicity.

Podge83

Oryx wrote: »

I think it is. The rules were always there, and there was never a problem. One woman causes an awful rukus because she doesn't understand the rules, TI have to make a statement, and hereafter, have to advise people on the rules in a way that is seen to be fair, or ladies like her will cry sexism. That is where we stand.

We see it on boards, posters try to rules lawyer. It happens in tri too. But I would expect that discretion will be used. There is such a thing as bad publicity.

It could be read in my post that I don't think discretion is used - I think it is used. And it must continue to be used!!

Kurt Godel

Oryx wrote: »

I think it is. The rules were always there, and there was never a problem. One woman causes an awful rukus because she doesn't understand the rules, TI have to make a statement, and hereafter, have to advise people on the rules in a way that is seen to be fair, or ladies like her will cry sexism. That is where we stand.

We see it on boards, posters try to rules lawyer. It happens in tri too. But I would expect that discretion will be used. There is such a thing as bad publicity.

Very good synopsis- I doubt we'll be getting any definitive statements from TI on this (nor should we, its a storm in a teacup). At Lanesboro today it was stressed that biking or running without a top was against the rules, even though it was very hot. We were told we could zip down our trisuits a bit, "but lets not be seeing anyone's belly hanging out":D

Didn't look for or notice anyone changing tops in trans, but most just wear trisuits anyway.

Oryx

The exact rule on zipping down trisuits is nipple height. If there's a danger of strict enforcement, they recommend putting a pin through the zip at this point, or wearing a suit with a zip at the back.

hardCopy

The nudity rule was emphasised at Swinford yesterday. The briefing said something like: None of us want to end up on Joe Duffy tomorrow morning.

Everyone was warned before the swim that if we didn't have anything on under our wetsuits we had two minutes to put something on.

Even after this I did see one lad racked behind me who had no top under his wetsuit, an official ran over and told him to put a top on immediately or he would be DQd, he eventually put something on.

elvis jones

hardCopy wrote: »

The nudity rule was emphasised at Swinford yesterday. The briefing said something like: None of us want to end up on Joe Duffy tomorrow morning.

Everyone was warned before the swim that if we didn't have anything on under our wetsuits we had two minutes to put something on.

Even after this I did see one lad racked behind me who had no top under his wetsuit, an official ran over and told him to put a top on immediately or he would be DQd, he eventually put something on.

Yep the power of Joe !

Also they upped the darfting pens as well, 5 min wasn't it ?

hardCopy

elvis jones wrote: »

Yep the power of Joe !

Also they upped the darfting pens as well, 5 min wasn't it ?

I thought that it was longer because it was a HIM. Bigger distance, bigger punishment?

elvis jones

hardCopy wrote: »

I thought that it was longer because it was a HIM. Bigger distance, bigger punishment?

Ah right !

Ditch spoke about nudity in the same away in Athy, even in the Double Olympic there was a guy with nothing at all under the wetsuit.........DQ !

new2du

ITU rules state, section 2.8 Uniform (v) "A one piece uniform is preferred. If a two piece uniform is used, the space between the top and the bottom may be not visible, so the two pieces overlap. THE ATHLETE MUST COVER THE TORSO DURING THE ENTIRE RACE."

hardCopy

elvis jones wrote: »

Ah right !

Ditch spoke about nudity in the same away in Athy, even in the Double Olympic there was a guy with nothing at all under the wetsuit.........DQ !

:eek:

tritriagain

im doing tri the hook my first tri in 4 weeks and had planned to wear tri shorts under my wetsuit and then throw on a t-shirt for the cycle and run.
does all of the above now mean i have to buy a tri suit or top . the wife will f***in kill me if i spend any more on my mid life crisis( i got my motorbike in my 30's so that doesnt count)

hardCopy

tritriagain wrote: »

im doing tri the hook my first tri in 4 weeks and had planned to wear tri shorts under my wetsuit and then throw on a t-shirt for the cycle and run.
does all of the above now mean i have to buy a tri suit or top . the wife will f***in kill me if i spend any more on my mid life crisis( i got my motorbike in my 30's so that doesnt count)

I got a sleeveless Dunlop running top in Penneys for my first tri, it cost less than a tenner, something similar would probably do you.

Or a cheap running singlet like this: http://www.wiggle.co.uk/nike-racer-singlet-ss13/

The lad I saw on Sunday got away with it but he could easily have been DQd, is it worth the risk of having your day messed up by a DQ?

boodiebhoy

At the race briefing in Carrick on suir yesterday there was no mention of drafting or nudity. Does that mean the race was draft legal? Some people in the race obviously thought so. There was plenty of bare torsos on show before the race (all male!) but after the race I heard the one of the TI officials telling guys to cover up in transition. The race was finished then so did he have any right to do this?

griffin100

I wear plasters over my nipples to prevent chaffing when I race, so am I allowed go topless in transition (or is that too burlesque for TI?).

dario28

So I had planned to go with bike top and change to tri top for the run but when the TI guy mentioned the whole Joe duffy incident during the Swinford briefing I thought it might be best to ask him.

He was sound in fairness thanked me for telling him and said when I get back into transition to give him a shout and he would hold a towel around me and I could get changed

in the end when I got back he was busy dishing out penalties for helmet removal before racking so didnt bother getting him and just ran in bike top

elvis jones

boodiebhoy wrote: »

At the race briefing in Carrick on suir yesterday there was no mention of drafting or nudity. Does that mean the race was draft legal? Some people in the race obviously thought so. There was plenty of bare torsos on show before the race (all male!) but after the race I heard the one of the TI officials telling guys to cover up in transition. The race was finished then so did he have any right to do this?

Of course not, its up to you to know the rules. The briefing is just a nice reminder and what's said depends on who the race ref is on the day.

elvis jones

griffin100 wrote: »

I wear plasters over my nipples to prevent chaffing when I race, so am I allowed go topless in transition (or is that too burlesque for TI?).

Can you get nipple plasters that have pics of nipples on them.........now that would really be confusing for the guys from TI:D

tunney

In New York the law was changed that since it was legal for men to be topless then in the interests of equality its been made legal for women to walk around topless. Some GREAT photos (NSFW) out there of a cracking blonde model get photos police officers in very public places. Not illegal so the cops just smiled and posed.

I for one would whole heartedly support allowing toplessness for both sexes.

El Director

Looks like TI are taking this issue quite seriously

http://www.redtagtiming.com/results/GalwayAquathon2013_LongCourse.pdf

I wonder where on the list of priorities is drafting??

catweazle

Ah that's an absolute joke - I am trying to get the stages

• come out of the water
• Take off wetsuit
• Put on t-shirt if you don't have a tri-suit on
• Start running

Is this why they are been busted - pretty soon every beginner will forced to buy a 100+ tri suit to get around this or join a club and get a subsidised one for 70ish. Just another expensive add-on to an already expensive sport.


TI really do themselves no favours sometimes, they fight battles they shouldn't and ignore ones they should - a full minute penalty - 50% of a penalty that they apply for cheating (which they apply rarely).


It looks like our only choice is we put on an auld ones voice and ring Joe Duffy complaining about drafters will be the only way TI will address it

RacoonQueen

Bloody hell. So some aul one who might never do a tri again has messed it up for everyone else?

Anyone from Galway confirm why it was so harsh?

hypersonic

catweazle wrote: »

Ah that's an absolute joke - I am trying to get the stages

• come out of the water
• Take off wetsuit
• Put on t-shirt if you don't have a tri-suit on
• Start running

Is this why they are been busted - pretty soon every beginner will forced to buy a 100+ tri suit to get around this or join a club and get a subsidised one for 70ish. Just another expensive add-on to an already expensive sport.


TI really do themselves no favours sometimes, they fight battles they shouldn't and ignore ones they should - a full minute penalty - 50% of a penalty that they apply for cheating (which they apply rarely).


It looks like our only choice is we put on an auld ones voice and ring Joe Duffy complaining about drafters will be the only way TI will address it

they consciously and with premeditation broke the rules, surely they should have been DQ'd.

ShineyShiney

4 TI officials at Galway yesterday probably due to the number of kids races. Very active on the run course and in transition. They seemed to represent Ti very well but it's a pity they have to enforce such a silly rule.

Perhaps it's time to change this nudity rule and put the resources into drafting.

As an aside at swinford half I overheard a conversation about drafting between 3 competitors at the prize giving, none of them were sure of the drafilting rules????

These guys were experienced looking triatheletes. Maybe the information deficit needs to be addressed.

tunney

I know of one experienced athlete who previously didn't draft. He raced at the weekend and has adopted the attitude "feck it, rules not being enforced, everyone doing it, I'm sitting in a TTT for the ride".

He did.
He was alot faster.
He didn't get done (no one did)
He'll do it again.

But heaven forget there should be a bit of nip slip.

griffin100

So does that mean for pool tris you have to wear a trisuit or else leave a top at the exit from the pool?

TI have their priorities arseways. Showing chest hair is now akin to cheating. Drafting is a much bigger issue and they seem afraid to properly tackle this. It takes balls and technical knowledge by a TO to issue a drafting penalty, issuing penalties for bare chests in transition takes neither of these.

On the subject of important rules I wonder what TI's approach to doping in NS and non NS races is? Anyone here ever been tested?

Podge83

Very Interesting question by Griff100 - One step further - if the torso is banned in transition how come it can be shown for the full swim!.

This is getting out of hand. Surely (I touched on this above) a fella or a lady wearing a sports bra can have a quick swap FFS. Not everyone likes to wear or can afford a tri-suit!!. The case that this whole discussion (Joe Duffy) et al started from was a lady bearing breasts for an extended period (or so I was told - I wasn't there so don't know for sure). She SHOULD have been DQ'd despite what Mr Duffy says.

Its ridiculous how in the case above so many were penalised when there were no drafting penalties.

sconhome

Podge83 wrote: »

Its ridiculous how in the case above so many were penalised when there were no drafting penalties.

It was an aquathon, no drafting applies.

Podge83

amphkingwest wrote: »

It was an aquathon, no drafting applies.

I apologise. I didn't realise. Please forgive me. I'm going now as that's the second moan I've had to withdraw today!!!

I should look before I leap.

The Torso thing is still a joke though!!!:D