Risk of Lyme Disease.

locum-motion

Firstly, I'm not talking about "Lyme Disease" being given as a quack diagnosis to people with vague symptoms and who have never been within an asses roar of a tick in their life. I'm talking about actual Lyme Disease, caused by the Borrelia bacterium and transmitted by the bite of the Deer Tick.

Secondly, I don't think this qualifies as asking for medical advice, but if the Mods disagree, then lock it by all means.

There's a Mountain Biking track around the grounds of the Dromoland Estate in Co. Clare, although given that it's highest point is about 40m above sea level, perhaps Cross Country Biking or All Terrain Biking would be a better description. It undulates around the estate, going through forest, grassland, waterside/boggy land, ferns etc etc. There is a herd of deer living on the estate. You don't actually see them very often, but they're there, and they can be heard running away through the undergrowth and/or the grass and ferns as cyclists approach. In some places the grass and ferns are about 4-5 feet high, so a deer is well able to stay hidden in them.

So, what I'm wondering about is this:

Are deer ticks endemic to Co.Clare?

And if so, does that mean that cyclists using the same land as a herd of deer are at risk of deer tick bites?

And if a cyclist does get bitten, is there a risk of Lyme Disease?

And finally, would long sleeves/trousers and/or a good liberal dousing with DEET provide any protection?

gctest50

Permethrin > deet according to here : http://www.lymeneteurope.org/info/deet-versus-permethrin-as-a-tick-repellent

locum-motion

gctest50 wrote: »

Permethrin > deet according to here : http://www.lymeneteurope.org/info/deet-versus-permethrin-as-a-tick-repellent

A: That's a dead link.
B: Good luck finding an insect repellant product containing Permethrin in this country.

Tree

The moth repellant strips for hanging in the wardrobe have permethrin in them, could tape them all over the cyclists

Jessibelle

Deer ticks are endemic where ever there's deer . While these are not exactly the most pertinent of sources, (relate more to Wicklow, Galway and Kerry) but ticks in those areas from deer have been associated with Lyme Disease cases, so I'd guess the same for those in Clare.

Irish Examiner story from last year

and this HSPC sheet links to areas in Ireland with known cases Lyme Disease Factsheet

RobFowl

FWIW I got Lyme disease 3 years ago mountain biking or hiking (in Ireland)
No long term effects but ruined a racing season :rolleyes:

100200 shih

I got Lime disease walking in long grass in Galway , bitch of a thing but caught it on time

locum-motion

OK, so it seems there is a risk.

Is it seasonal? Is the risk higher at certain times of the year?

Alun

locum-motion wrote: »

OK, so it seems there is a risk.

Indeed there is and has been for quite a while. A degree of unfamiliarity with the disease on behalf of many Irish GP's (mine actually told me only recently that we don't have it in Ireland at all) and the fact that it only recently became notifiable means it has been severely under reported and diagnosed.

Is it seasonal? Is the risk higher at certain times of the year?

Mainly late spring through summer I think, due to the foliage they like to inhabit before jumping onto their victims.

I don't know about cyclists, but when walking, the main way they get onto the body is either onto your neck or up your trouser legs, so either from high bracken / low tree branches or from long grass hence the advice for tight fitting clothing and tucking your trousers into your socks. From their entry point they then start to head for a nice warm spot such as armpits or groin, but usually end up biting you before they get that far.

bambergbike

Check yourself for ticks after any contact between long grass and bare legs. If you're lucky, you can remove them before they've even got round to biting you. If you're slightly less lucky, you'll get bitten, but no consequences will result. Get in under the tick with a credit card, knife or similar before trying to remove it.

If you do get Lyme disease, you will either notice it or not notice it. If you see a classic "bull's eye" rash, take yourself off to your doctor and start three weeks of antibiotics. That's what happened to me - the tick had dropped off or been knocked off before I noticed the bite, but once the rash came up I knew what it was.

If you get Lyme disease but it doesn't show up as the classic rash, which not everybody gets, or as a temperature a few days after a tick bite, then it goes untreated and may present at some point with very vague, insidious symptoms that are very hard to diagnose. Testing for antibodies only shows that a person was bitten by an infected tick at some point, not that borrelia bacteria have anything to do with current symptoms. A friend was diagnosed with Lyme disease from a bite that had occurred years previously because there weren't many other good reasons for a teenager to have trigeminal neuralgia. But middle-aged or elderly people who already have various health conditions and then go to their GPs complaining of fatigue or joint pain are fairly unlikely to get a diagnosis of Lyme disease even if that is exactly what they have. So GPs underdiagnose, and then that opens the field up to quacks who overdiagnose. The worst case scenario is that people end up seeing different specialists for their different symptoms and years go by without anybody looking at all of them together and figuring out what is going on.

Alun

bambergbike wrote: »

If you get Lyme disease but it doesn't show up as the classic rash, which not everybody gets, or as a temperature a few days after a tick bite, then it goes untreated and may present at some point with very vague, insidious symptoms that are very hard to diagnose. Testing for antibodies only shows that a person was bitten by an infected tick at some point, not that borrelia bacteria have anything to do with current symptoms. A friend was diagnosed with Lyme disease from a bite that had occurred years previously because there weren't many other good reasons for a teenager to have trigeminal neuralgia. But middle-aged or elderly people who already have various health conditions and then go to their GPs complaining of fatigue or joint pain are fairly unlikely to get a diagnosis of Lyme disease even if that is exactly what they have. So GPs underdiagnose, and then that opens the field up to quacks who overdiagnose. The worst case scenario is that people end up seeing different specialists for their different symptoms and years go by without anybody looking at all of them together and figuring out what is going on.

Well said.

You don't have to be an avid outdoorsy type to get within an "asses roar" of ticks and get bitten, just a short country walk in the long grass is enough, something most people will do at one time or another, so locum-motions remark about people with "actual" Lyme disease in his OP was a bit below the belt IMO.

locum-motion

Perhaps the phrasing I used wasn't the best, so if so I apologise.
However, we all know that if you google Lyme Disease you'll get a whole load of crap that borders on conspiracy theory about it.

I was just trying to distance my query from that type of query.

El_Dangeroso

Why your dog can get a vaccine for Lyme disease and you can't:

http://www.wbur.org/2012/06/27/lyme-vaccine?utm_content=buffer652f4&utm_source=buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer

Alun

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Why your dog can get a vaccine for Lyme disease and you can't:

http://www.wbur.org/2012/06/27/lyme-vaccine?utm_content=buffer652f4&utm_source=buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer

Interesting, I never knew that!

sciene

I got lyme disease after I was bitten by a tick while walking through woods.I was paralysed from my neck down for a year,put on life support,meningitis,septicaemia,pulmonary oedema,endocardidtis...infection after infection.It was a long road to recovery but I am doing really well now.I have learned how to walk again.I am lucky to be alive!

Tick Talk

Lyme disease can be a risk in many parts of the country, most of the studies by Prof Gray in the 90s focused attention around the deer parks such as Wicklow, Connemara, Portumna & Killarney however birds & mice can carry hard bodied ticks & therefore the danger can spread. Interestingly in one of our surveys we asked how many people got ticks in their garden & found a large percentage (especially in Galway) saying they found ticks in their garden so you don't even need to be out hiking to come across them depending on where you live. If anyone is interested we have a couple of surveys, one for spotting ticks in Ireland & one for Lyme sufferers to complete.

The surveys are limited to 100 & the tick survey is at 98 at the moment so if you try to complete & can't I may be able to start a new one so we can continue the survey with a new link. The good news is that more awareness is being made across Ireland but the bad news is that some GPs & consultants are still unfamiliar with the various types of presentations, for some it can be an expanding bulls-eye rash, others the rash can be uniform but still flat & expanding & for others no rash at all & so it can be a tricky thing to diagnose. Especially as the symptoms can be waxing & waning later on in the disease. I've heard that a scientific advisory committee will be set up by the HSE next year to tackle awareness & diagnosis. Here's the survey links for you http://www.ticktalkireland.org/surveys.html

New Irelander

sciene wrote: »

I got lyme disease after I was bitten by a tick while walking through woods.I was paralysed from my neck down for a year,put on life support,meningitis,septicaemia,pulmonary oedema,endocardidtis...infection after infection.It was a long road to recovery but I am doing really well now.I have learned how to walk again.I am lucky to be alive!

I had a tick bite in 1995 and it is only around early 2008 that I managed to clamp down those Spirochetes. So you can imagine living with almost all of these symptoms :-

Rash at site of bite or on other parts of your body
Unexplained hair loss
Headache, mild or severe, Seizures
Pressure in head, white matter lesions in brain (MRI)
Twitching of facial or other muscles
Facial paralysis(Bell's Palsy, Horner's syndrome)
Tingling of nose, (tip of) tongue, cheek or facial flushing
Stiff or painful neck
Jaw pain or stiffness
Dental problems (unexplained)
Sore throat, clearing throat a lot, phlegm ( flem ), hoarseness, runny nose
Double or blurry vision
Increased floating spots
Pain in eyes, or swelling around eyes
Oversensitivity to light
Flashing lights/Peripheral waves/phantom images in corner of eyes
Decreased hearing in one or both ears, plugged ears
Buzzing in ears
Pain in ears, oversensitivity to sounds
Ringing in one or both ears
Diarrhea
Constipation
Irritable bladder (trouble starting, stopping) or Interstitial cystitis
Upset stomach (nausea or pain) or GERD (gastroesophageal reflux disease)
Bone pain, joint pain or swelling, carpal tunnel syndrome
Stiffness of joints, back, neck, tennis elbow
Muscle pain or cramps, (Fibromyalgia)
Shortness of breath, can't get full/satisfying breath, cough
Chest pain or rib soreness
Night sweats or unexplained chills
Heart palpitations or extra beats
Endocarditis, Heart blockage
Tremors or unexplained shaking
Burning or stabbing sensations in the body
Fatigue, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Weakness, peripheral neuropathy or partial paralysis
Pressure in the head
Numbness in body, tingling, pinpricks
Poor balance, dizziness, difficulty walking
Increased motion sickness
Lightheadedness, wooziness
Mood swings, irritability, bi-polar disorder
Unusual depression
Disorientation (getting or feeling lost)
Feeling as if you are losing your mind
Over-emotional reactions, crying easily
Too much sleep, or insomnia
Difficulty falling or staying asleep
Narcolepsy, sleep apnea
Panic attacks, anxiety
Memory loss (short or long term)
Confusion, difficulty in thinking
Difficulty with concentration or reading
Going to the wrong place
Speech difficulty (slurred or slow)
Stammering speech
Forgetting how to perform simple tasks
Loss of sex drive
Sexual dysfunction
Unexplained menstral pain, irregularity
Unexplained breast pain, discharge
Testicular or pelvic pain
Phantom smells
Unexplained weight gain, loss
Extreme fatigue
Swollen glands/lymph nodes
Unexplained fevers (high or low grade)
Continual infections (sinus, kidney, eye, etc.)
Symptoms seem to change, come and go
Pain migrates (moves) to different body parts
Early on, experienced a "flu-like" illness, after which you have not since felt well.
Low body temperature
Allergies/Chemical sensitivities
Increased effect from alcohol and possible worse

....in the time span of approximately 14 years. I went to Hell and back! I won't wish it not even for my worst enemy.

Sciene, like you I too am happy to be alive and well again! Indeed it's a long road to recovery.... even when you are done with the Spirochetes (Borrelia burgdorferi) you are still battling with co-infections. I am sure you have gone through with myriads of treatments but which one that help you most?

Tick Talk

I don't know if anyone saw the hearing at the Dail last year, copies of the transcripts are available online if anyone is interested

A copy of the full transcript is available at: http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/committeetakes/HEJ2013112100001?opendocument

The full hearing (90 minutes) can be played back at: http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=24859&&CatID=127

Videos of the hearing has now also been released on Vimeo which allows for segments to be played back also (see below)..

Part 1 http://vimeo.com/80805750 Part 2 http://vimeo.com/80805749

Graces7

Tick Talk thank you.

I have M.E since probably forty years and of course symptoms will overlap

But it is only since living in rural sheep farming Ireland I have met ticks and in huge numbers.

My cats used to come in with great things on their faces.
I was appalled when I realised what they are.

Over the years I have had at least three tick bites but these are sheep ticks and apparently ( although I have the impression you will say differently) it is deer ticks that can cause Lymes.

Two of my cats are long haired and sleep on my bed so I have had ticks strolling up the laptop screen

None of us has come to harm so I am not panicking.

I just wish farmers would sort their sheep out is all.

Just found a tick on my new semi feral cat. I cannot use chemicals on the two long haired as they groom each other but on this one..