The policing you dont see- MI5 in Northern Ireland.

SoulandForm

I can imagine some of the replies I will get for posting as it exposes both the Sinn Fein supporters and their pseudo-Republicanism and those who cling to the illusion that the six counties of north east Ulster have become "normal". Though I am sure there are also people who will take this information.

The report was made by politically neutral human rights group (well leftish Alliance and SDLP types in reality).


http://www.caj.org.uk/files/2012/12/05/The_Policing_you_dont_see,_November_2012.pdf

Remember that this is the surface. God knows what is beneath the surface.

.jacksparrow.

From that report it seems mi5 are working without any authority or anyone to report to. They are also operating in prisons putting people into isolation for weeks and interogating them without their solicitors present.

They are accountable to nobody.

Xantia

They were operating wholesale all over Ireland during the 'troubles'

murphaph

Do you think there is more transparency and accountability in policing south of the border OP?

gallag

I suppose while the dissident threat to life is still present these invisible operations are a nessisary evil!

SoulandForm

murphaph wrote: »

Do you think there is more transparency and accountability in policing south of the border OP?

Good question- honestly Im not sure.

However while the elite that rule the Free State might easily be described as evil they are in no way as evil as the elite that rules the occupied six counties though personally I would like to see both go and the Irish Republic re-established.

gallag

SoulandForm wrote: »

Good question- honestly Im not sure.

However while the elite that rule the Free State might easily be described as evil they are in no way as evil as the elite that rules the occupied six counties though personally I would like to see both go and the Irish Republic re-established.

If you were charged with protecting your citizens from the dissident threat how would you go about it? Full view policing? Perhaps a website where people could see in detail exactly what you are investigating and names and photos of all operatives and informants etc?

Sand

SoulandForm wrote: »

Good question- honestly Im not sure.

However while the elite that rule the Free State might easily be described as evil they are in no way as evil as the elite that rules the occupied six counties though personally I would like to see both go and the Irish Republic re-established.

Do you think there is more transparency and accountability in policing by the militant groups looking to re-establish this Irish Republic OP?

COYW

Such organisations exist in every civilized country in the world, monitoring terrorist units. They don't need to be open and transparent. You do realize that such units are active in the RoI too?

.jacksparrow. wrote:

From that report it seems mi5 are working without any authority or anyone to report to. They are also operating in prisons putting people into isolation for weeks and interogating them without their solicitors present.

They are accountable to nobody.

.jacksparrow., there is plenty of information out there, try google, on what MI5 is about and who MI5 report to. Their job is to "protect the United Kingdom against threats to national security." So, they are well within their remit to work in N.I.

mcc1

Secret service acting in secret shocker?? Well I never.

.jacksparrow.

COYW wrote: »

Such organisations exist in every civilized country in the world, monitoring terrorist units. They don't need to be open and transparent. You do realize that such units are active in the RoI too?



.jacksparrow., there is plenty of information out there, try google, on what MI5 is about and who MI5 report to. Their job is to "protect the United Kingdom against threats to national security." So, they are well within their remit to work in N.I.

I absolutely understand that but the same could be said about the CIA and what snowden said.

It doesn't give them the right to operate above the law with regards peoples rights and liberties.

Riddle101

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

I absolutely understand that but the same could be said about the CIA and what snowden said.

It doesn't give them the right to operate above the law with regards peoples rights and liberties.

National Security is a very serious thing. If it is for the good of the country then yes they should be allowed to operate above the law. Though I'm am not entirely supportive of that, I can understand why countries like the UK and US do. They have many enemies, which makes them targets for terrorist attacks etc. Therefore national security is a high priority to them.

SoulandForm

Sand wrote: »

Do you think there is more transparency and accountability in policing by the militant groups looking to re-establish this Irish Republic OP?

If you mean groups using violence than yes I definitely do. Infact I wish they would disband totally.

SoulandForm

gallag wrote: »

If you were charged with protecting your citizens from the dissident threat how would you go about it? Full view policing? Perhaps a website where people could see in detail exactly what you are investigating and names and photos of all operatives and informants etc?

The only way to end with the threat of political violence from Irish Republicans or separatists is for British government to announce a time table for its complete withdrawal from Ireland. Will they please leave?

gallag

SoulandForm wrote: »

The only way to end with the threat of political violence from Irish Republicans or separatists is for British government to announce a time table for its complete withdrawal from Ireland. Will they please leave?

Even against the will of the people? If the majority of people want to remain part of the UK should the terrorists win? Anyway plenty of dissident attacks foiled and lots or arms found so obviously these policing tactics are working.

Del2005

SoulandForm wrote: »

The only way to end with the threat of political violence from Irish Republicans or separatists is for British government to announce a time table for its complete withdrawal from Ireland. Will they please leave?

The UK government saying that they are leaving NI will not sort out the problems that they have up there, in fact it could go the other way as the and we could have a terrorism campaign in the Republic.

endacl

SoulandForm wrote: »

The only way to end with the threat of political violence from Irish Republicans or separatists is for British government to announce a time table for its complete withdrawal from Ireland. Will they please leave?

Finally. A new solution to an old problem has been proposed! You should have piped up years ago. Could have saved a lot of bother.

.jacksparrow.

gallag wrote: »

Even against the will of the people? If the majority of people want to remain part of the UK should the terrorists win? Anyway plenty of dissident attacks foiled and lots or arms found so obviously these policing tactics are working.

But how do we know it would be against the will of the people? There is no timetable for a referendum, if they even gave a rough date the dissidents might stop there campaign.

SoulandForm

gallag wrote: »

Even against the will of the people? If the majority of people want to remain part of the UK should the terrorists win? Anyway plenty of dissident attacks foiled and lots or arms found so obviously these policing tactics are working.

The majority of people of this country even still today after an intensive campaign by the elite still want to see their country unified. The little gerrymandered experiment has been an absolute failure and the fact that people in the occupied north east still cling to it means that they are either intellectually incapable of analysis, bigots blinded by pride or have fallen for the lie that people in the south dont care about the north.

gallag

SoulandForm wrote: »

The majority of people of this country even still today after an intensive campaign by the elite still want to see their country unified. The little gerrymandered experiment has been an absolute failure and the fact that people in the occupied north east still cling to it means that they are either intellectually incapable of analysis, bigots blinded by pride or have fallen for the lie that people in the south dont care about the north.

Link? Every poll or survey (except one carefully crafted in two staunch republican town's that were run by people who wanted a yes answer and required preregistration) says you are wrong, the desire for a UI is at an all time low and your republican mindset is blinding you, you are happy to criticise the police in there successful campaign against the factions that want to bomb and kill their way to an undemocratic decision yet have no negative words for the terrorists but "give them what they want"!

SoulandForm

gallag wrote: »

Link? Every poll or survey (except one carefully crafted in two staunch republican town's that were run by people who wanted a yes answer and required preregistration) says you are wrong, the desire for a UI is at an all time low and your republican mindset is blinding you, you are happy to criticise the police in there successful campaign against the factions that want to bomb and kill their way to an undemocratic decision yet have no negative words for the terrorists but "give them what they want"!

Polls taken in the the occupied counties alone do not count.

The armed militants violent actions are immoral but they are done for a morally righteous cause. They would be much better off promoting the Irish language than shooting guns or letting off bombs.

Again "Northern Ireland" was created through violence against the wishes of the majority of the country and has a history of violence, division, hatred and over all failure. So as a Unionist you are really not in a position to get on your high horse about either democracy or violence.

gallag

SoulandForm wrote: »

Polls taken in the the occupied counties alone do not count.

Wrong, polls taken in N.Ireland is ALL!! that counts, as per the democratic wishes of the people as per the GFA, if the people from N.I wish to have a U.I then the good people of the republic can then also vote.

nelly17

UI would be suicide for the taintative relative peace that exists in NI today, it would only satisfy the few but make the situation so much worse that those few would could end up involved in a Cival War

donegal_road

SoulandForm wrote: »

I can imagine some of the replies I will get for posting as it exposes both the Sinn Fein supporters and their pseudo-Republicanism and those who cling to the illusion that the six counties of north east Ulster have become "normal". Though I am sure there are also people who will take this information.

The report was made by politically neutral human rights group (well leftish Alliance and SDLP types in reality).


http://www.caj.org.uk/files/2012/12/05/The_Policing_you_dont_see,_November_2012.pdf

Remember that this is the surface. God knows what is beneath the surface.

Drones over Northern Ireland 12 months ahead of G8 summit
very Orwellian

.jacksparrow.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/5000-dissident-republicans-due-to-march-through-belfast-29412763.html


Thought this was quite fitting to this thread.

.jacksparrow.

gallag wrote: »

Wrong, polls taken in N.Ireland is ALL!! that counts, as per the democratic wishes of the people as per the GFA, if the people from N.I wish to have a U.I then the good people of the republic can then also vote.

Well when will they be given the choice to decide their own future?

SoulandForm

gallag wrote: »

Wrong, polls taken in N.Ireland is ALL!! that counts, as per the democratic wishes of the people as per the GFA, if the people from N.I wish to have a U.I then the good people of the republic can then also vote.

The GFA is just an interesting historical document now- it was thrown out and replaced by the St Andrews Agreement which no one voted for. The GFA was also the product of bowing to the indiscriminate violence of the Unionist death squads who were in league with certain sections of the British state.

gallag

SoulandForm wrote: »

The GFA is just an interesting historical document now- it was thrown out and replaced by the St Andrews Agreement which no one voted for. The GFA was also the product of bowing to the indiscriminate violence of the Unionist death squads who were in league with certain sections of the British state.

Nothing to do with republican violence that accounted for most of the death and destruction? How blind you are!

getzls

The IRA never liked MI5, and that goes for their camp followers.

Unless they were getting bunged £££ for imfo of course.

Foxhound38

SoulandForm wrote: »

Good question- honestly Im not sure.

However while the elite that rule the Free State might easily be described as evil they are in no way as evil as the elite that rules the occupied six counties though personally I would like to see both go and the Irish Republic re-established.

What is this "Free State" and "Occupied Six Counties" when they're at home? Couldn't find them on any map?

Sir Humphrey Appleby

SoulandForm wrote: »

Good question- honestly Im not sure.

However while the elite that rule the Free State might easily be described as evil they are in no way as evil as the elite that rules the occupied six counties though personally I would like to see both go and the Irish Republic re-established.

FYI
It is The Republic in common parlance, Ireland or Eire officially, not the free state.
It is Northern Ireland, a constituent part of The United kingdom of Great Britain and Nortern Ireland, not the occupied six counties.
Impossible to respect the veiwpoint of anyone who insists on disrespecting my country by persistantly calling it by a deregatory name.

pablomakaveli

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

FYI
It is The Republic in common parlance, Ireland or Eire officially, not the free state.
It is Northern Ireland, a constituent part of The United kingdom of Great Britain and Nortern Ireland, not the occupied six counties.
Impossible to respect the veiwpoint of anyone who insists on disrespecting my country by persistantly calling it by a deregatory name.

It's the ridiculous assumption that calling NI and the ROI by another name somehow makes it not a real entity. The equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "la la la you're not real la la la"

Xantia

Posters are talking about polls in Ireland should look back at the original poll of the Irish General Election of 1918.
As far as I know it was the last all Ireland poll?
Anyhow Sinn Fein led by Eamon de Valera won 73 out of the 105 seats (a sizeable 69.5% of seats)

Technically you could blame the Germans for partition as well
The then Imperial Government of Germany (pre WW1) sent arms to the Ulster Volunteers (which became the UVF) in 1914
After that they sent arms to the Irish Volunteers in the same year. They were actively promoting political tension in what was then the United Kingdom of GB and Ireland in the years leading up to the 'great war/the war to end all wars'.

After this poll the lines were drawn.
Even Carson (who was elected as an MP for the University of Dublin) fought against the Tory idea of partition but eventually had to give way as the other option was home rule for all of Ireland which his supporters were against.

Carson said "What a fool I was! I was only a puppet, and so was Ulster, and so was Ireland, in the political game that was to get the Conservative Party into Power."
In other words it suited the British Tory party at that time to ignore the overwhelming results of an election because they got back into power as a result.

Coillte_Bhoy

Xantia wrote: »

Posters are talking about polls in Ireland should look back at the original poll of the Irish General Election of 1918.
As far as I know it was the last all Ireland poll?
Anyhow Sinn Fein led by Eamon de Valera won 73 out of the 105 seats (a sizeable 69.5% of seats)

Technically you could blame the Germans for partition as well
The then Imperial Government of Germany (pre WW1) sent arms to the Ulster Volunteers (which became the UVF) in 1914
After that they sent arms to the Irish Volunteers in the same year. They were actively promoting political tension in what was then the United Kingdom of GB and Ireland in the years leading up to the 'great war/the war to end all wars'.

After this poll the lines were drawn.
Even Carson (who was elected as an MP for the University of Dublin) fought against the Tory idea of partition but eventually had to give way as the other option was home rule for all of Ireland which his supporters were against.

Carson said "What a fool I was! I was only a puppet, and so was Ulster, and so was Ireland, in the political game that was to get the Conservative Party into Power."
In other words it suited the British Tory party at that time to ignore the overwhelming results of an election because they got back into power as a result.

Interesting you use the % number of seats they won and not the more accurate % share of the vote which was less than 50%

Xantia

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Interesting you use the % number of seats they won and not the more accurate % share of the vote which was less than 50%

They are both accurate figures.

Xantia

Here is the percentage results:
The full set of constituency results for all 103 Irish constituencies (two of which elected two MPs) is given below. Sinn Fein won 73 seats out of 105 (and they constituted themselves as the first Dáil); Unionists won 22, plus 3 from the satellite "Labour Unionist" grouping; the Irish Nationalist Party won 6 seats in Ireland, plus also a seat in Liverpool; and one independent Unionist was elected from Dublin University (ie Trinity College Dublin). The total vote (bearing in mind that Sinn Fein won 25 seats without a contest) was as follows:


Sinn Fein 476,087 46.9%
Unionists 257,314 25.3%
Nationalists 220,837 21.7%
"Labour Unionists" 30,304 3.0%
Labour 12,164 1.2%
Ind Un 9,531 0.9%
Ind Nats 8,183 0.8%
Ind Lab 659 0.1%
Ind 436 0.0%

While it is clear that Sinn Fein did not get an overall majority it is also clear that Nationalists plus Sinn Fein (those in favour of home rule) did.

Coillte_Bhoy

Xantia wrote: »

Here is the percentage results:
The full set of constituency results for all 103 Irish constituencies (two of which elected two MPs) is given below. Sinn Fein won 73 seats out of 105 (and they constituted themselves as the first Dáil); Unionists won 22, plus 3 from the satellite "Labour Unionist" grouping; the Irish Nationalist Party won 6 seats in Ireland, plus also a seat in Liverpool; and one independent Unionist was elected from Dublin University (ie Trinity College Dublin). The total vote (bearing in mind that Sinn Fein won 25 seats without a contest) was as follows:


Sinn Fein 476,087 46.9%
Unionists 257,314 25.3%
Nationalists 220,837 21.7%
"Labour Unionists" 30,304 3.0%
Labour 12,164 1.2%
Ind Un 9,531 0.9%
Ind Nats 8,183 0.8%
Ind Lab 659 0.1%
Ind 436 0.0%

While it is clear that Sinn Fein did not get an overall majority it is also clear that Nationalists plus Sinn Fein (those in favour of home rule) did.

SF would have had a clear majority though if those 25 seats had been contested, they were mainly in areas where SF were dominant

Xantia

Yes that is correct.

It seems pretty certain that Sinn Féin would have had a majority of the votes if all the seats had been contested. In the contested seats where they won, the total valid vote was 617,262 of an electorate of 907,903 (68.0%); and SF got 414,394 votes out of 619,649 (66.9%). The 25 uncontested constituencies had a total electorate of 474,778; if we assume an identical average turnout and SF vote share, that gives 322,790 extra votes cast, 216,703 for SF and 106,087 for others. This gives SF at least 692,790 votes of a notional Ireland-wide total of 1,306,465, or at least 53.0%. The 66.9% vote share for SF in constituencies they would have won is a very conservative estimate; in nine of the contested constituencies they got over 80% of the vote and their likely vote share in the uncontested seats must be nearer that end of the scale. For their total vote share to be less than 50% (assuming the 68.0% turnout) their vote share in the 25 uncontested seats would have had to be an unrealistically low 54.7%.

Oakboy

Sand wrote: »

Do you think there is more transparency and accountability in policing by the militant groups looking to re-establish this Irish Republic OP?

That makes everything all right then, let's carry on

micosoft

SoulandForm wrote: »

Good question- honestly Im not sure.

However while the elite that rule the Free State might easily be described as evil they are in no way as evil as the elite that rules the occupied six counties though personally I would like to see both go and the Irish Republic re-established.

So that you can stick your own elite in?

BFDCH.

micosoft wrote: »

So that you can stick your own elite in?

they've done such a good job with governing the 26 counties, it would only be right and proper for us to inflict our elite on the the other 6 too